So I can follow your argument, can you please elaborate as to what is an effective symbol? Is there an effective symbol and an ineffective symbol? Please give some scriptural references.
You are the one who said our death in baptism is effective. I was using your terminology. You need me to explain your terminology to you?
No. I do not want you to explain what I said. My contention is with the words you used "It is an effective symbol of death". Our baptism is not a symbol at all but an effective death and resurrection with Christ.
An advice: When you quote one of the Fathers of the Church, you need to read what they wrote in context. Please, provide a reference to what St. Basil said so I can read the whole topic and in context, instead of one phrase. So, please provide a reference to the quote you provided, then I will address it.
I have read all of De Spiritu Sancto. I also told you that's where the quote is from. Advice for you: if you will take this tone, you better pay attention so you don't look foolish. Go read.
Post the reference, the link
I was not trying to make a point. Rather I was trying to educate you.
Before educating someone, make sure they don't already have the knowledge.
Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder
Can you please show me where in the above statement does Pope Shenouda say that we die in baptism symbolically?
The words "actually died" make the point.
You are taking words out of context.
No Symbol in these verses: Rom 6:4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Col 2:12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
Titus 3:5-7 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
No. I do not want you to explain what I said. My contention is with the words you used "It is an effective symbol of death". Our baptism is not a symbol at all but an effective death and resurrection with Christ.
Explain what an effective death is to yourself, then you may understand what I am saying.
Although the admins deleted your post, I had already read it. Extremely humorous, but warranted sarcasm. With folks like that I am less interested in debating with them and more focused on third parties seeing the nonsense. That's the only reason I haven't stopped the conversation.
Although the admins deleted your post, I had already read it. Extremely humorous, but warranted sarcasm. With folks like that I am less interested in debating with them and more focused on third parties seeing the nonsense. That's the only reason I haven't stopped the conversation.
I am grateful that you have not stopped the conversation.
Although the admins deleted your post, I had already read it. Extremely humorous, but warranted sarcasm. With folks like that I am less interested in debating with them and more focused on third parties seeing the nonsense. That's the only reason I haven't stopped the conversation.
I share your feelings about helping others see through the nonsense as well. That is the only reason I post here too. Sadly, everything I say seems to get stifled and I'm losing the desire to share my thoughts. I pray that doesn't happen to you.
[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=12303.msg144488#msg144488 date=1315757954] + Irini nem ehmot,
So basically what you're both saying is, you both have no evidence to discredit his sainthood. Great. I'm glad we've established that. In the meantime, let's discredit the sainthood of King David, all the prophets, all the patriarchs (i.e. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) and let's throw in Adam and Eve to the mix as well. Oh, and Pope Kyrollos VI isn't a saint either. Good to know.
And while we're add it, how about we tell our Ethiopian Orthodox brothers and sisters that their church made a booboo including Pontius Pilate as a saint.
And now, back to your regularly scheduled nonsense.
Hi Brother,
With all due respect, I was simply making a comment that I felt the proofs offered were not sufficient evidence of his status as a saint.
In my thinking the idea that a person can be considered as a saint because of one thing they've said seems quite odd. I acknowledge that they were the first person to enter paradise but I believe that traditionally this is more part of the great ironies that God has created in the Gospel and the salvation story i.e. one of the greatest Apostles and witnesses was formerly a persecutor of the Church in the form of St Paul and the first witness of the resurrection was a women (Mary Magdalene) when they were disregarded in society and not considered credible witnesses.
I think you're really stretching things if you're making the implication that by denying the right hand thief this title you'd be denying the saints of the Old Testament. The saints of the Old Testament are remembered for a variety of reasons like King David for his faithfulness and repentance, Moses for his humility and seeing God, Abraham for his faith. To compare these men to the right hand thief who only really as far as we know did one faithful thing doesn't seem fair on the great fathers of the Old Testament.
The acts of the thief I would have thought would have been memorialised like the faith of Rahab the harlot or something similar who displayed great faith contrary to the disbelieving Jews of the time as an example of someone who in seeing Christ recognised His Divine Character and made a confession of faith like the man born blind. This is no small thing but I'm very uncomfortable with using this as the basis for his sainthood.
I quoted the passage from the Gospel because it also seemed to me that anyone who is saved can be called blessed and praised; yourself for your wisdom and diligence, your perseverance; there will always be virtue in the ones who are saved but this doesn't qualify everyone for sainthood.
I wasn't attacking you personally or trying to get into some kind of one-up-manship contest, I'm sorry if I came across that way.
I'm not going to respond to this any further so as to generate any bad blood.
Not to belittle the time and effort people have expended on debating whether the Right Thief is a saint, but does it at all matter? The word saint is used in the New Testament to refer to every Christian. We, as a matter of convenience, have re-defined the term to mean something more than a usual Christian. Usually so that we would honor such person and point him/her out as someone to gain something special from.
We honor the Right Thief every Holy Week. We learn from him that we can steal salvation in a second.
Giving him the title will not, and cannot, change anything about him - other than whether he gets called a saint by us, which he does not, and we should not, care about.
Not to belittle the time and effort people have expended on debating whether the Right Thief is a saint, but does it at all matter?
Dear Patrological Theology,
Of course it does.
The Church Tradition is not up for people to change. For example, deacons cannot just come up with a new hidanni for Demas the thief, or change the existing hymnal words to saint. A priest cannot just starting mentioning his name in the congregation of saints.
This is why it is very crucial to preserve what the Church teaches because it is not a matter of personal opinion.
The Church Tradition is not up for people to change. For example, deacons cannot just come up with a new hidanni for Demas the thief, or change the existing hymnal words to saint. A priest cannot just starting mentioning his name in the congregation of saints.
This is why it is very crucial to preserve what the Church teaches because it is not a matter of personal opinion.
The title of this thread should be changed to "Salvation of Non-Orthodox" otherwise only Coptic Orthodox, Coptic Catholics, and Protestant and Muslim/other Egyptians who identify to Christ that they are 'Coptic' will go to heaven haha...too bad for our Syriac and Armenian Orthodox friends :). Granted the intention of the thread-starter probably meant "Orthodox" by "Coptic"...but thats a whole other topic!
[quote author=Timothym link=topic=12303.msg144675#msg144675 date=1315957089] The title of this thread should be changed to "Salvation of Non-Orthodox" otherwise only Coptic Orthodox, Coptic Catholics, and Protestant and Muslim/other Egyptians who identify to Christ that they are 'Coptic' will go to heaven haha...too bad for our Syriac and Armenian Orthodox friends :). Granted the intention of the thread-starter probably meant "Orthodox" by "Coptic"...but thats a whole other topic! I just hate how some Copts focus more on being "Coptic" than being Orthodox. This sort of behavior totally undermines the Catholicity of the Orthodox Church. But I am sure the OP meant well and I don't mean to berate him/her.
[quote author=Severian link=topic=12303.msg144677#msg144677 date=1315958761] [quote author=Timothym link=topic=12303.msg144675#msg144675 date=1315957089] The title of this thread should be changed to "Salvation of Non-Orthodox" otherwise only Coptic Orthodox, Coptic Catholics, and Protestant and Muslim/other Egyptians who identify to Christ that they are 'Coptic' will go to heaven haha...too bad for our Syriac and Armenian Orthodox friends :). Granted the intention of the thread-starter probably meant "Orthodox" by "Coptic"...but thats a whole other topic! I just hate how some Copts focus more on being "Coptic" than being Orthodox. This sort of behavior totally undermines the Catholicity of the Orthodox Church. But I am sure the OP meant well and I don't mean to berate him/her. ;)
True Severian...Im not sure if you know but theres a childs hymn called "My Coptic Church" actually there are more than one with a similar title and this idea that "we are Coptic" not in a nationalistic sense but in a religious sense first is knocked into the childrens brains from when they are able to sing this song :). The sunday schools ought to teach the kids that there is a difference between 'Coptic' and 'Orthodoxy' and that we are Coptic Orthodox rather than just Coptic...or else we can be Coptic Sun-worshippers.
Comments
No. I do not want you to explain what I said. My contention is with the words you used "It is an effective symbol of death". Our baptism is not a symbol at all but an effective death and resurrection with Christ.
I have read all of De Spiritu Sancto. I also told you that's where the quote is from. Advice for you: if you will take this tone, you better pay attention so you don't look foolish. Go read.
Post the reference, the link Before educating someone, make sure they don't already have the knowledge.
Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder The words "actually died" make the point.
You are taking words out of context.
No Symbol in these verses:
Rom 6:4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Col 2:12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
Titus 3:5-7 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
So now the admin team is removing posts while still refusing to deal with the spam. Gold star admin. Gold. Star.
Although the admins deleted your post, I had already read it. Extremely humorous, but warranted sarcasm. With folks like that I am less interested in debating with them and more focused on third parties seeing the nonsense. That's the only reason I haven't stopped the conversation.
Κηφᾶς,
Although the admins deleted your post, I had already read it. Extremely humorous, but warranted sarcasm. With folks like that I am less interested in debating with them and more focused on third parties seeing the nonsense. That's the only reason I haven't stopped the conversation.
I am grateful that you have not stopped the conversation.
God bless you.
[quote author=one.copt link=topic=12303.msg144522#msg144522 date=1315788218]
Κηφᾶς,
Although the admins deleted your post, I had already read it. Extremely humorous, but warranted sarcasm. With folks like that I am less interested in debating with them and more focused on third parties seeing the nonsense. That's the only reason I haven't stopped the conversation.
I share your feelings about helping others see through the nonsense as well. That is the only reason I post here too. Sadly, everything I say seems to get stifled and I'm losing the desire to share my thoughts. I pray that doesn't happen to you.
+ Irini nem ehmot,
So basically what you're both saying is, you both have no evidence to discredit his sainthood. Great. I'm glad we've established that. In the meantime, let's discredit the sainthood of King David, all the prophets, all the patriarchs (i.e. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) and let's throw in Adam and Eve to the mix as well. Oh, and Pope Kyrollos VI isn't a saint either. Good to know.
And while we're add it, how about we tell our Ethiopian Orthodox brothers and sisters that their church made a booboo including Pontius Pilate as a saint.
FYI: Dismas the thief - complete with feast day and icon.
And now, back to your regularly scheduled nonsense.
Hi Brother,
With all due respect, I was simply making a comment that I felt the proofs offered were not sufficient evidence of his status as a saint.
In my thinking the idea that a person can be considered as a saint because of one thing they've said seems quite odd. I acknowledge that they were the first person to enter paradise but I believe that traditionally this is more part of the great ironies that God has created in the Gospel and the salvation story i.e. one of the greatest Apostles and witnesses was formerly a persecutor of the Church in the form of St Paul and the first witness of the resurrection was a women (Mary Magdalene) when they were disregarded in society and not considered credible witnesses.
I think you're really stretching things if you're making the implication that by denying the right hand thief this title you'd be denying the saints of the Old Testament. The saints of the Old Testament are remembered for a variety of reasons like King David for his faithfulness and repentance, Moses for his humility and seeing God, Abraham for his faith. To compare these men to the right hand thief who only really as far as we know did one faithful thing doesn't seem fair on the great fathers of the Old Testament.
The acts of the thief I would have thought would have been memorialised like the faith of Rahab the harlot or something similar who displayed great faith contrary to the disbelieving Jews of the time as an example of someone who in seeing Christ recognised His Divine Character and made a confession of faith like the man born blind. This is no small thing but I'm very uncomfortable with using this as the basis for his sainthood.
I quoted the passage from the Gospel because it also seemed to me that anyone who is saved can be called blessed and praised; yourself for your wisdom and diligence, your perseverance; there will always be virtue in the ones who are saved but this doesn't qualify everyone for sainthood.
I wasn't attacking you personally or trying to get into some kind of one-up-manship contest, I'm sorry if I came across that way.
I'm not going to respond to this any further so as to generate any bad blood.
Please pray for me,
LiD
We honor the Right Thief every Holy Week. We learn from him that we can steal salvation in a second.
Giving him the title will not, and cannot, change anything about him - other than whether he gets called a saint by us, which he does not, and we should not, care about.
Of course it does.
The Church Tradition is not up for people to change. For example, deacons cannot just come up with a new hidanni for Demas the thief, or change the existing hymnal words to saint. A priest cannot just starting mentioning his name in the congregation of saints.
This is why it is very crucial to preserve what the Church teaches because it is not a matter of personal opinion.
Thanks.
You're welcome.
The title of this thread should be changed to "Salvation of Non-Orthodox" otherwise only Coptic Orthodox, Coptic Catholics, and Protestant and Muslim/other Egyptians who identify to Christ that they are 'Coptic' will go to heaven haha...too bad for our Syriac and Armenian Orthodox friends :). Granted the intention of the thread-starter probably meant "Orthodox" by "Coptic"...but thats a whole other topic!
I just hate how some Copts focus more on being "Coptic" than being Orthodox. This sort of behavior totally undermines the Catholicity of the Orthodox Church. But I am sure the OP meant well and I don't mean to berate him/her.
[quote author=Timothym link=topic=12303.msg144675#msg144675 date=1315957089]
The title of this thread should be changed to "Salvation of Non-Orthodox" otherwise only Coptic Orthodox, Coptic Catholics, and Protestant and Muslim/other Egyptians who identify to Christ that they are 'Coptic' will go to heaven haha...too bad for our Syriac and Armenian Orthodox friends :). Granted the intention of the thread-starter probably meant "Orthodox" by "Coptic"...but thats a whole other topic!
I just hate how some Copts focus more on being "Coptic" than being Orthodox. This sort of behavior totally undermines the Catholicity of the Orthodox Church. But I am sure the OP meant well and I don't mean to berate him/her. ;)
True Severian...Im not sure if you know but theres a childs hymn called "My Coptic Church" actually there are more than one with a similar title and this idea that "we are Coptic" not in a nationalistic sense but in a religious sense first is knocked into the childrens brains from when they are able to sing this song :). The sunday schools ought to teach the kids that there is a difference between 'Coptic' and 'Orthodoxy' and that we are Coptic Orthodox rather than just Coptic...or else we can be Coptic Sun-worshippers.