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The sign of the cross

MozesMozes
edited December 1969 in Coptic Orthodox Church
Agapy everyone,

We crosss ourselves from left to right,while the Eastern Orthodox church faithful cross themsleves from right to left.Does anyone know the reasons for the differences? There must be reasons as to why we cross from left to right or from right to left.

Thanks

Comments

  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=Mozes link=topic=8073.msg103740#msg103740 date=1243997275]
    Agapy everyone,

    We crosss ourselves from left to right,while the Eastern Orthodox church faithful cross themsleves from right to left.Does anyone know the reasons for the differences? There must be reasons as to why we cross from left to right or from right to left.

    Thanks


    I was told, not so specifically, that in the our tradition we right is the sign of power, like many of the verses; so we end it with that. in the eastern churches, more specifically the Greek, closeness to the heart is more fitting to end with. it's something like that, i can't remember the exact meaning. so don't consider this a full explanation.
  • Unknown
    That we are transformed from darkness to light with the power of the Cross (dark being the left and light being the right).

    Peace.
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=Taishory link=topic=8073.msg103742#msg103742 date=1244001100]
    That we are transformed from darkness to light with the power of the Cross (dark being the left and light being the right).

    Peace.


    maybe that's it. in the greek understanding, the heart side is the light.
  • mabsootamabsoota
    i have read somewhere (ant the antiochian priest confirmed it on sunday) that they cross from right to left because the right symbolises our status as made righteous in Christ and so they do the right side first.
    i agree with taishory that we do the left first for basically the same reason, that we are symbolising the moment of transformation.
    my new antiochian friends couldn't believe we did the right first, they thought that was only catholics. i almost had to send them to this website to straighten them out!
    anyway i kept mixing it up in the service (it's hard to do right first when you're not used to it) but they didn't notice, they just accepted me as orthodox  :)
    btw does anyone know, is it every single EO church that does right to left? do the armenians and indians and syriac orthodox do it like us, despite being physically far away and also influenced by other orthodox churches in their history? i know all the eastern european churches do right to left.
  • rpmrpm
         Could it be that this signifies our Lord's descent from the heavens above to the earth below to carry over those on the left (sinful) side over to the right (cleansed) side.

         I believe St.Matthew 25:31-46 gives us a biblical perspective on this.

    The Sheep and the Goats
    31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

    34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

    37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

    40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

    41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

    44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

    45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

    46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."



           Father Peter should clear this out for us with clarity.

    GBU,
    R
  • aidanaidan
    As someone who changed from the 'flat-handed' RC sign to the 'two fingers and thumb together, two fingers back,right shoulder then left' I researched the reasons for the differences.

    The Catholic encyclopaedia says that the RCs used to do it this way but changed for reasons unknown. A Greek source claims they changed to be different from the hated Latin crusaders.

    Anyone have authorative information?
  • Theophilus 1Theophilus 1
    I found this podcast on 'the Physical side of Prayer' where crossing oneself is discussed. Though there is no definite explanation why it is changed it gives some idea when it was changed in the Catholic Church.
    http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/eastwest
    In Christ
    Theophilus
  • MozesMozes

    Agapy everyone,

    Thank you all for your views.I found the following curios explanation in wikipedia.

    "Today, Western Christians and the Oriental Orthodox touch the left shoulder before the right. Orthodox Christians use the right-to-left movement. A Greek catechetical textbook attempted to explain the difference between the Latin and the Greek customs by saying that the right side is associated with holiness, and the heart (on the left) with the spirit, so that those who, in mentioning the Holy Spirit, used the Latin phrase "Spiritus Sancti" (noun before adjective) touched left before right, while those who said, in Greek, "τοῦ Ἁγίου Πνεύματος" (adjective before noun) did the opposite"

    So it is all a matter of language? Highly improbable!
  • andrew21091andrew21091
    I also recently found out about an interesting fact that members of the Assyrian Church of the East do the Cross right to left as the Eastern Orthodox do.
  • Pharaoh714Pharaoh714
    The power comes from saying the name of God not from the movement of your hand.


    thats why we say IN THE NAME of....
  • the_leastthe_least
    true, but symbolism is good, just look at our Church and the enormous amount of symbolism in it

    i think the movement is actually very important...i heard Anba Moussa say once that we say a whole creed when we cross ourselves
  • HezekielHezekiel
    We cross from left to right:

    1)The head :symbolises heaven;Our Lord was incarnated ,took our lowly nature ,and descended from heaven.

    2) We go down from the head to the centre : The centre symbolises earth, our Lord coming down to Earth.

    3) Then we go to the left: The left indicates Hades.After His earthly mission,Our Lord descended into hades to free the righteous.

    4) Then we go to the right to indicate the ascension of our Lord into heaven and sits at the right Hand of the Father.

    The COC tradtion says the thief who was crucified on the right was Egyptian and the  thief on the left was Syrian.The syrians may have it the the other way :D. So the left indicates the eternal damnation of the thief (hell) and the right the confession of the thief of our Lord and eternal life.

    Left= Goats, Old testament, prophets, etc.,etc
    Right: Sheep, New testament, Apostles, etc., etc.,

  • the_leastthe_least
    there you go

    and might i add to number 2: came down to Earth and dwelt in the WOMB of our Mother the Virgin Mary
  • andrew21091andrew21091
    There are many reasons and examples of how the Cross should be done. I will offer one of the EO meanings on why it is done right to left though it is an older meaning where the Sign of the Cross was a sign to Christ and when doing the Cross the Jesus Prayer was done with it. One starts at the forehead saying "Lord" symbolizing the Father in Heaven (the head being a symbol for Heaven), then to the stomach saying "Jesus Christ" who came down from the heavens and was incarnate on earth (which the stomach represents), then to the right shoulder saying "Son of God" since Christ sits at the right hand of the Father, and then to the left saying "have mercy on me a sinner" because the sinners are on the left at the judgment.
  • mabsootamabsoota
    thank you for your explaination. are you EO?
    it is great to have your insight.
    i think i will continue to do left to right in EO churches and right to left in catholic and OO churches. (i am coptic but i like to visit other churches).
  • the_leastthe_least
    hey mabsoota, you said that you like to visit other churches....i must warn you to be careful....not from my own experience but from what i heard from Anba Raphael once....he said that everything we talk about in church has something to do with dogma (arabic --> 3aqeeda) although you may not think it does and it's perfectly fine to go to other churches....it's not
  • mabsootamabsoota
    thanks for your concern, the_least,
    i discuss all dogma/ doctrine issues with abouna or my friends who are church servants, and often i tell people in the other churches about our church and stimulate their interest.
    i recommend people who visit other churches also discuss it with their FOC.
    it's because of my church visiting habits i became orthodox, i was protestant before.
  • the_leastthe_least
    it looks like you have everything under control....but i would just like to say that now that you're orthodox, you have the fullness of truth and lack nothing....unless you're doing this for evangelism reasons

    i think if everyone in the world took a good look at their own religious beliefs and the history of it and then took a good look at the Orthodox Christian beliefs and history of it, everyone would be Orthodox Christian....unfortuantely a lot of people don't know what they believe in and where these beliefs originated and it's our duty to educate them.
  • andrew21091andrew21091
    [quote author=mabsoota link=topic=8073.msg105320#msg105320 date=1250100531]
    thank you for your explaination. are you EO?
    it is great to have your insight.
    i think i will continue to do left to right in EO churches and right to left in catholic and OO churches. (i am coptic but i like to visit other churches).


    Yes, I am EO; I'm part of the Antiochian Orthodox Church in America. I have a great love though for the Coptic Church and traditions though I have never been to a Coptic church since there isn't one very close to me (I would have to go about three hours away) but if there was I would visit there. I pray for true unity between our churches; may God grant this.
  • mabsootamabsoota
    welcome, andrew.
    i've been to an antiochian church, the theology is the same but our liturgical prayers are not 'hidden', so everyone can join in and worship. the hidden prayers were a fairly late development in the history of liturgy, i, personally think ours are more helpful to the community so they can worship with knowledge.
    but otherwise, the service was similar, and the people very devoted in their love to God. and i was very impressed by the missionary effort of the church in london, i was the only person in the congregation who knew any arabic! the priest was a russian american.
    so, you see, we have a lot to learn from each other. if u are ever in the uk, send me a personal message and i will arrange for you a visit to a church in the part of the country you are in. (i can call someone i don't know who is a friend of a friend of a friend and introduce them to you!!)
    does your church have any cool websites like this?
    God bless you
  • andrew21091andrew21091
    [quote author=mabsoota link=topic=8073.msg105440#msg105440 date=1250288127]
    welcome, andrew.

    Thank you!

    i've been to an antiochian church, the theology is the same but our liturgical prayers are not 'hidden', so everyone can join in and worship. the hidden prayers were a fairly late development in the history of liturgy, i, personally think ours are more helpful to the community so they can worship with knowledge.

    I agree with you on this point. I think it would be better if the whole congregation could hear the prayers that are said in the altar by the priest. One of my favorite things when serving in the altar, I can hear the "hidden" prayers better.

    but otherwise, the service was similar, and the people very devoted in their love to God. and i was very impressed by the missionary effort of the church in london, i was the only person in the congregation who knew any arabic! the priest was a russian american.

    Yes missionary effort by the Church of Antioch in America is also big also. I believe the Antiochian Archdiocese get the second largest number of converts next to the Orthodox Church in America (OCA) out of all the Orthodox jurisdictions in this country (I pray one day there will be only one Orthodox Church in America). My parish is very diverse which is a real blessing because we don't have any ethnic issues that some churches have; we have Arabs, Russians, Serbs, Eritreans, Ethiopians, Armenians, and a bunch of converts who come from all sorts of ethnic backgrounds; our priest is actually of Irish ancestry and his wife is Austrian.

    so, you see, we have a lot to learn from each other.

    That is very true.

    if u are ever in the uk, send me a personal message and i will arrange for you a visit to a church in the part of the country you are in. (i can call someone i don't know who is a friend of a friend of a friend and introduce them to you!!)

    I will have to do that even though I'm not sure when I'll ever be there though I do want to go to Scotland one day; thanks.

    does your church have any cool websites like this?
    God bless you

    You mean like Tasbeha? There are some Orthodox forums out there. I post at OrthodoxChristianity.net forums which has both Eastern and Oriental Orthodox members and it was actually in the OO section of that site that I found this site because someone linked to the main website to the Coptic hymns which I like a lot. There is also monachos.net which has a big discussion board on the patristic and monastic theological heritage of the Orthodox Church.
  • Mary E
    I havent read the posts, but it is becuase the Lord took us from the left side to the right side, the right path. :)
  • TewahedoTewahedo
    You mentioned The Father and The Son.  What about The Holly Spirit?
  • elsi70x7elsi70x7
    [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=8073.msg103741#msg103741 date=1243999156]
    [quote author=Mozes link=topic=8073.msg103740#msg103740 date=1243997275]
    Agapy everyone,

    We crosss ourselves from left to right,while the Eastern Orthodox church faithful cross themsleves from right to left.Does anyone know the reasons for the differences? There must be reasons as to why we cross from left to right or from right to left.

    Thanks


    I was told, not so specifically, that in the our tradition we right is the sign of power, like many of the verses; so we end it with that. in the eastern churches, more specifically the Greek, closeness to the heart is more fitting to end with. it's something like that, i can't remember the exact meaning. so don't consider this a full explanation.


    I can't remember exactly either but, I was told it is to move our hearts from the left to the right. Move our sinful nature over to a godly nature.
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