I know this doesn't really make sense in Egyptian culture, where getting married is a top priority, but has anyone considered purposefully remaining single to devote oneself fully to God's service? This could include monkhood, but also staying in the world as a single person and just total dedication to serving other people and God, without obligations to spouse and children. Thoughts?
Comments
I know this doesn't really make sense in Egyptian culture, where getting married is a top priority, but has anyone considered purposefully remaining single to devote oneself fully to God's service?
ME!
you made a conscious decision to do this? do you regret it? please tell us a bit about it!
i got married at the age of 22!
;)
so i think if u want to dedicate a year or 2 to God to remain single and not distracted by thoughts of marriage, this is fine, but if you are thinking of yr whole life, then this is a special call from God, and it needs lots of thought, fasting and prayer, as well as discussion with your priest.
also, marriage needs the same amount of preparation and fasting and prayer!
:)
but, if you plan to live in the world, live a regular life in America with all its technology and advancement, it's gonna be super hard...sort of like you're constantly being pulled in 2 seperate directions.
and don't forget that getting married IS serving God; i mean, you're always going to be serving your spouse and future kids.
look at catholic priests: they have to be single and that's kinda the reason why some of them end up molesting kids--because they live in the world & are trying to live as if they are not. -> im not saying that's what every one does, just an example.
if this is truly your calling, then you will blow away all of our minds and be exceptional at it.
However, Pope Shenouda says, (So many Years with the problems of people IV, page 31)
As for the life of celibacy, in monastics, the grace of God helps them in a different way to fight the temptation. According for Father Lazarus St. Anthony, the desire for the normal married life begins to atrophy in the monk who works hard for this grace.
It seems commendable to me that you are seeking the life of celibacy in order to serve God. It is a higher path, and its rewards can be enormous. However, we are never to make a vow that we are not certain of, nor that we have not consulted our fathers of confession on. That is not to say that you will not be able to do this vow. If your intentions are correct, and you desire the life of celibacy, then ask God for the grace necessary to accomplish it, and trust that God will do the best.
God bless you.
ReturnOrthodoxy
[quote author=returnorthodoxy link=topic=12477.msg146243#msg146243 date=1318990434]
I understand that too live as a celibate is a choice not a calling. It is not as if monks do not feel the urge to be married, but rather that they have made a decision of refraining from marriage in order to achieve a higher standing.
[...]
It is a higher path, and its rewards can be enormous. However, we are never to make a vow that we are not certain of, nor that we have not consulted our fathers of confession on. That is not to say that you will not be able to do this vow. If your intentions are correct, and you desire the life of celibacy, then ask God for the grace necessary to accomplish it, and trust that God will do the best.
I couldn't disagree more with the bolded statements. What makes a celibate (or even a monastic) life a 'higher path' or a 'higher standing' than marriage? They are two separate paths; incomparable, yet both equally capable of allowing one to attain Theosis, which is the goal of all Christians be they single or married. You don't get more brownie points for opting to take one path over the other. That's just plain ridiculous. The Apostle Peter was married, and he is no more or less great than the Apostle Paul who wasn't. Both are apostles. Both are honoured equally in the Church. Both are examples of how to follow Christ.
The notion that one has to be single to better serve Christ is a cop-out, and a bad one at that. Service is not just going around preaching, or serving in Africa, or selling all your goods and running off to the desert. A person who wants to better serve Christ will do so whether they are married or not. Service is desire inside a person, not a consequence of their circumstances.
when i was 18, i decided to remain single until i was 21 (seemed like a long time back in those days!) so that i could study and serve God. to be honest, i also fancied a bit of serving myself as i lived away from home at this time and enjoyed having no-one telling me where i could go and when. once i reached the grand old age of 21, i decided that i would be open to marriage if i met someone else serious about it.
i got married at the age of 22!
;)
so i think if u want to dedicate a year or 2 to God to remain single and not distracted by thoughts of marriage, this is fine, but if you are thinking of yr whole life, then this is a special call from God, and it needs lots of thought, fasting and prayer, as well as discussion with your priest.
also, marriage needs the same amount of preparation and fasting and prayer!
:)
But how did you know this was God's will for you to do this?
Did you speak with a preist during these 3 years of spritual development and tell them you were doing this purposefully?
What if it is not God's will for one to do this, how did you know that this is what God wanted you to do?
The notion that one has to be single to better serve Christ is a cop-out, and a bad one at that. Service is not just going around preaching, or serving in Africa, or selling all your goods and running off to the desert. A person who wants to better serve Christ will do so whether they are married or not. Service is desire inside a person, not a consequence of their circumstances.
I really want a "Like" button on the forum to just like specific posts like this one here. :)
i did not discuss it with a priest as i should have done, as i was protestant at the time.
i just wanted to be single for a while (i was only 18, i was in no rush to get married!) so i prayed about it and thought it would be ok.
i am not advising other people to do that, they should always discuss it with their spiritual advisor (usually a priest), but if you are going to be stubborn and do it by yourself, at least only do it for a year or two. i expected to stay single for a lot longer after i was 21, but God had other plans for me.
I have two male friends (older than myself) who have chosen this path. They are so much closer to the Lord, as a result. Although one of them complains to me of loneliness from time to time. Surely, the family doesn't take away from your service towards God and His people. If that were the case, our priests would be celibate. If the family serves God together and inspire one another, nothing will be lost. The family will be with each other and the ministry will not be hindered.
If family is not a hindrance, than why are they much closer to the Lord as a result? Also, aren't there some celibate priests? I'm pretty sure that I know of at least one--is this allowed but generally frowned upon?
[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=12477.msg146249#msg146249 date=1319035016]
+ Irini nem ehmot,
What makes a celibate (or even a monastic) life a 'higher path' or a 'higher standing' than marriage? They are two separate paths; incomparable, yet both equally capable of allowing one to attain Theosis, which is the goal of all Christians be they single or married. You don't get more brownie points for opting to take one path over the other. That's just plain ridiculous. The Apostle Peter was married, and he is no more or less great than the Apostle Paul who wasn't. Both are apostles. Both are honoured equally in the Church. Both are examples of how to follow Christ.
The notion that one has to be single to better serve Christ is a cop-out, and a bad one at that. Service is not just going around preaching, or serving in Africa, or selling all your goods and running off to the desert. A person who wants to better serve Christ will do so whether they are married or not. Service is desire inside a person, not a consequence of their circumstances.
I agree and wasn't suggesting that this was necessarily a "higher" or "better" option. Still though, isn't there something to the idea that not having the responsibilities of a family allows one to devote more time and energy to serving God? I don't see how that could be argued with. 1 Corinthians 7 says:
"32 I would like you to be free from concern. An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord’s affairs—how he can please the Lord. 33 But a married man is concerned about the affairs of this world—how he can please his wife— 34 and his interests are divided. An unmarried woman or virgin is concerned about the Lord’s affairs: Her aim is to be devoted to the Lord in both body and spirit. But a married woman is concerned about the affairs of this world—how she can please her husband. 35 I am saying this for your own good, not to restrict you, but that you may live in a right way in undivided devotion to the Lord."
I know that these verses must be taken in context (with the rest of the chapter AND in the context of the Corinthians to whom Paul was writing) but I agree with the logic of the verses that I've quoted here. I suggest that anyone reading this that really cares/is interested read at least chapter 7 of 1st Corinthians, which deals almost exclusively with marital issues.
Good comments/discussion from everyone so far, though :)
For I wish that all men were even as I myself. But each one has his own gift from God, one in this manner and another in that. But I say to the unmarried and to the widows: It is good for them if they remain even as I am; but if they cannot exercise self-control, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion.
I think it is clear here that St. Paul, through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, is saying that the preference is for celibacy, most explicitly when it says "It is good for them if they remain even as I am." He continues to say there is nothing wrong with marriage and even calls marriage a great mystery in another letter. Which is true and there are many notable examples of married saints.
This is from St. John Chrysostom on Celibacy:
This we say without speaking ill of marriage: God forbid! For we know that the Lord blessed marriage by His presence, and we know Him who said, "Marriage is and the bed undefiled."
But knowing that virginity is better than marriage, however good. For among the virtues, equally as among the vices, there are higher and lower grades. We know that all mortals after the first parents of the race are the offspring of marriage. For the first parents were the work of virginity and not of marriage. But celibacy is, as we said, an imitation of the angels. Therefore, virginity is as much more honorable than marriage, as the angel is higher than man.
[quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=12477.msg146247#msg146247 date=1319001701]
I have two male friends (older than myself) who have chosen this path. They are so much closer to the Lord, as a result. Although one of them complains to me of loneliness from time to time. Surely, the family doesn't take away from your service towards God and His people. If that were the case, our priests would be celibate. If the family serves God together and inspire one another, nothing will be lost. The family will be with each other and the ministry will not be hindered.
If family is not a hindrance, than why are they much closer to the Lord as a result? Also, aren't there some celibate priests? I'm pretty sure that I know of at least one--is this allowed but generally frowned upon?
It would have been better if I left the "as a result" part out. I can't say it is as a result of being celibate. It could help but might not be the main factor. There are some celibate priests but those are exceptions. It's not frowned upon, as far as I know.
I wonder if the apostles and disciples ditched their families for the ministry?
Peter does say to Jesus, "See we have left all and followed you." (Matthew 19:27), but then again, Peter takes Jesus to his wife's mother for healing. I understand that celibacy alone nor marriage alone is anything. However, through my readings (minimal as they are), I am under the impression that celibacy is higher than marriage. I don't mean to offend, and I could be wrong, my goal is not to convince other of this point, but rather exhibit what I believe and seek correction from that.
So for example, having read the quote of John Cassian which aiernovi posted, I am not sure what to believe, I am still young and I do not know how to read the Bible properly, nor understand the sayings of the fathers properly either. The reason I may quote the Bible incorrectly is not because I proof text, it is because I am still a child in understanding.
Anba Mettaos in "The Sublimity of Monasticism" says, I am lead by that part which says "the top of Christian perfectness" to believe that there is something to celibacy that is not in marriage.
If I misunderstand, I am open to other interpretations. Please understand that this is not an argument. I understand that I maybe wrong, and I am ready to accept that. I would rather be told that I am wrong, and then learn what is right. Forgive me for my ignorance.
ReturnOrthodoxy
[quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=12477.msg146247#msg146247 date=1319001701]
I wonder if the apostles and disciples ditched their families for the ministry?
I can't believe that the disciples would "ditch" their families, so to speak. In fact, in that same chapter of corinthians, Paul advises that:
"24 Brothers and sisters, each person, as responsible to God, should remain in the situation they were in when God called them. 25 Now about virgins: I have no command from the Lord, but I give a judgment as one who by the Lord’s mercy is trustworthy. 26 Because of the present crisis, I think that it is good for a man to remain as he is. 27 Are you pledged to a woman? Do not seek to be released. Are you free from such a commitment? Do not look for a wife. 28 But if you do marry, you have not sinned; and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned. But those who marry will face many troubles in this life, and I want to spare you this."
This suggests that "ditching" one's family at the time of God's call would be unacceptable since Paul advises the Corinthians to remain in their current situations when they are called by God.
Thus, this discussion may not be so much for people that are already married or engaged. Rather, it's really directed at the choice of unmarried people.
Anyway, I think the reference you gave to Corinthians might be a little out of context. Verse 24 is about those who converted to Christianity yet were married to a non-convert. He advises them to stay in the marriage and not leave the person.
This is from St. John Chrysostom on Celibacy:
This we say without speaking ill of marriage: God forbid! For we know that the Lord blessed marriage by His presence, and we know Him who said, "Marriage is and the bed undefiled."
But knowing that virginity is better than marriage, however good. For among the virtues, equally as among the vices, there are higher and lower grades. We know that all mortals after the first parents of the race are the offspring of marriage. For the first parents were the work of virginity and not of marriage. But celibacy is, as we said, an imitation of the angels. Therefore, virginity is as much more honorable than marriage, as the angel is higher than man.
thanks for this! good reference! What do others think about this?
I know this doesn't really make sense in Egyptian culture, where getting married is a top priority, but has anyone considered purposefully remaining single to devote oneself fully to God's service? This could include monkhood, but also staying in the world as a single person and just total dedication to serving other people and God, without obligations to spouse and children. Thoughts?
You need to obey the Lord, which is part of devotion by His Holy Sacrament of:
MARRIAGEEEEEE
It is not good, but bad to go just to find a husband/wife, the Lord has a perfect person for u- SOUL MATE
Thoughts?
I don't know if this whole idea of a perfect soul-mate is correct. I haven't really heard any priests talk about it. . .
Thoughts?
Im just trying to say that youll find the ONE when they are perfect as God wants, God has a plan for us ALLLL
[quote author=the lord is my shepherd link=topic=12477.msg146263#msg146263 date=1319058850]
I agree and wasn't suggesting that this was necessarily a "higher" or "better" option.
I never said you did, which is why I didn't quote you but someone else.
[quote author=the lord is my shepherd link=topic=12477.msg146263#msg146263 date=1319058850]
Still though, isn't there something to the idea that not having the responsibilities of a family allows one to devote more time and energy to serving God?
No. Once again, serving God does not solely constitute running around the globe preaching the Gospel. That is what Paul did. As such, in his case, it would make more sense to remain single than to be married. When one is single, they are only responsible for themselves, not to anyone else. Marriage, on the other hand, is a martyrdom (hence the crowning ceremony, which not only means a king/queen-ship but also a crown of martyrdom). You sacrifice your will for the sake of your spouse. It is no longer about 'I, I, I. Me, me, me.' You are now responsible not only for the salvation of yourself, but your wife and children.
[quote author=the lord is my shepherd link=topic=12477.msg146263#msg146263 date=1319058850]
I don't see how that could be argued with. 1 Corinthians 7 says:
"32 I would like you to be free from concern. An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord’s affairs—how he can please the Lord. 33 But a married man is concerned about the affairs of this world—how he can please his wife— 34 and his interests are divided. An unmarried woman or virgin is concerned about the Lord’s affairs: Her aim is to be devoted to the Lord in both body and spirit. But a married woman is concerned about the affairs of this world—how she can please her husband. 35 I am saying this for your own good, not to restrict you, but that you may live in a right way in undivided devotion to the Lord."
I know that these verses must be taken in context (with the rest of the chapter AND in the context of the Corinthians to whom Paul was writing) but I agree with the logic of the verses that I've quoted here. I suggest that anyone reading this that really cares/is interested read at least chapter 7 of 1st Corinthians, which deals almost exclusively with marital issues.
You've already answered yourself in the bolded section. There really isn't much else to say. Consider what Paul was doing. In the context of what his particular service to God was, yes, being single would be wiser. Not to mention, Paul is giving an opinion on the matter.
[quote author=aiernovi link=topic=12477.msg146264#msg146264 date=1319061899]
1 Cor 7:7-9
For I wish that all men were even as I myself. But each one has his own gift from God, one in this manner and another in that. But I say to the unmarried and to the widows: It is good for them if they remain even as I am; but if they cannot exercise self-control, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion.
I think it is clear here that St. Paul, through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, is saying that the preference is for celibacy, most explicitly when it says "It is good for them if they remain even as I am." He continues to say there is nothing wrong with marriage and even calls marriage a great mystery in another letter. Which is true and there are many notable examples of married saints.
I'm curious what the highlighted statement means to you, and how it takes into account any personal opinions and biases of the author.
[quote author=aiernovi link=topic=12477.msg146264#msg146264 date=1319061899]
This is from St. John Chrysostom on Celibacy:
This we say without speaking ill of marriage: God forbid! For we know that the Lord blessed marriage by His presence, and we know Him who said, "Marriage is and the bed undefiled."
But knowing that virginity is better than marriage, however good. For among the virtues, equally as among the vices, there are higher and lower grades. We know that all mortals after the first parents of the race are the offspring of marriage. For the first parents were the work of virginity and not of marriage. But celibacy is, as we said, an imitation of the angels. Therefore, virginity is as much more honorable than marriage, as the angel is higher than man.
Written by a man (albeit a very wise man) who was never married. Again, offering his opinion since he himself was never married and does not know the sacrifice involved in marriage. Further angels are 'higher' than men in the sense that they have a different nature than us. However, angels serve us and Christ became Man to save us. So really, who is 'higher'? If you read the writings of the desert fathers, you will find that many talk about the greatness of certain virtues. However, they all agree that, just as the greatest of all vices is pride (the mother of all vices), the mother of all virtues is humility. Marriage teaches, if nothing else, humility. Some food for thought.
[quote author=returnorthodoxy link=topic=12477.msg146267#msg146267 date=1319064397]
Anba Mettaos in "The Sublimity of Monasticism" says, I am lead by that part which says "the top of Christian perfectness" to believe that there is something to celibacy that is not in marriage.
I disagree with your interpretation. Anba Mettaos is saying that the monastic chooses to remain celibate in order to reach the top of christian perfectness (sic) as opposed to the person who marries, who also uses marriage as the means to reach the top of christian perfectness (sic). Once again, 'christian perfectness (sic)' in this context is Theosis, which can be attained through celibacy or marriage. One does not trump the other, nor is one a quicker or easier way than the other.
My interpretation may be incorrect. However, just as much as you claim that St. John Cassian's understanding is his opinion (though he may be wise), your view also is an opinion. So here we have two opinions. While Cassian's opinion may be biased because he has not been married and does not know what it entails, neither have you been a monk (unless you are and I'm just a goof :D), nor known exactly what it entails, nor the degree to which the monk or nun practices virtues which may also be found in marriage. So there is in both opinions here (as it seems to me) a lack of understanding of the other side.
If one were to claim (not saying that you are claiming, but just saying that it may be said) that Cassian is saying this because he is a monk and so justifies himself above the married, I would find that argument lacking. He made a decision to be a monk having weighed the positives and negetives and found more in the monastic life. his opinon did not come because he became a monk, but rather, he chose to become a monk because he had this opinion. This opinon is the cause of his choice to be a monk rather than to be married.
I do not necessarily claim that marriage is easier. I have never been married, nor have I been a monk. As Pope Shenouda says, "The greatest layman, and the greatest monk will still both go to the bosoms of Abraham, isaac, and Jacob... and the three were married." <---- Haha Pope Shenouda is very funny ;D
Forgive me for my ignorance.
ReturnOrthodoxy
[quote author=aiernovi link=topic=12477.msg146264#msg146264 date=1319061899]
This is from St. John Chrysostom on Celibacy:
This we say without speaking ill of marriage: God forbid! For we know that the Lord blessed marriage by His presence, and we know Him who said, "Marriage is and the bed undefiled."
But knowing that virginity is better than marriage, however good. For among the virtues, equally as among the vices, there are higher and lower grades. We know that all mortals after the first parents of the race are the offspring of marriage. For the first parents were the work of virginity and not of marriage. But celibacy is, as we said, an imitation of the angels. Therefore, virginity is as much more honorable than marriage, as the angel is higher than man.
Written by a man (albeit a very wise man) who was never married. Again, offering his opinion since he himself was never married and does not know the sacrifice involved in marriage. Further angels are 'higher' than men in the sense that they have a different nature than us. However, angels serve us and Christ became Man to save us. So really, who is 'higher'? If you read the writings of the desert fathers, you will find that many talk about the greatness of certain virtues. However, they all agree that, just as the greatest of all vices is pride (the mother of all vices), the mother of all virtues is humility. Marriage teaches, if nothing else, humility. Some food for thought.
I don't think that you have been entirely fair to him. St. John Chrysostom wrote on entire book on "Marriage and Family Life", and here is a small excerpt: http://www.roca.org/OA/121/121b.htm
So you can't say that he doesn't know of the sacrifice involved in marriage. He even speaks highly of marriage "The love of husband and wife is the force that welds society together. Men will take up arms and even sacrifice their lives for the sake of this love"
But St. John Chrysostom also says that, "Christ, Himself, is the glory of virginity", which is why i think it's more honourable that marriage.
St. Anthony the Great said: St. Anthony said: “I entreated God to show me what help the Monk is granted for his monastic grace, and He showed me a large fiery candle and a multitude of armed Angels, who surrounded the Monk who tried to help save him. And I heard a voice from the Holy Spirit which told the Angels: 'Do not depart from him throughout his life."
PPFM, and sorry if i offended you.
History alone allows us to establish the fact that Jews and Christians have always believed in the inspiration of the books of the Bible. These books are held as sacred and canonical, not because having been put together by merely human labor and afterwards approved by the Church's authority, but because, having been written by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author and, as such, they have been handed down to the Church itself as an unerring guide to her.
Difference Between Revelation and Inspiration: Revelation has to do with the communication of truth that cannot be otherwise discovered; inspiration has to do with the recording of the revealed truth. Inspiration has to do with the recording of the truth. The Spirit of God moved upon men to write the books of the Bible (Acts 1:16; Hebrews 10:15-17; 2Peter 1:21). All Scripture is fully and verbally inspired. St. Paul (2Timothy 3:16) declares that no part of the written word is uninspired, but "All Scripture (lit. "every Scripture", i.e. every portion) is inspired by God (lit. "God-breathed") and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness".
I was going to defend my friend St. John Chrysostom but Christs Servant did it for me. He has many wonderful sayings about marriage to the extent that, in a lecture I attended, the priest commented that one would think he was married the way he holds marriage in such high regard!
Additionally, he was simply one example and I'm glad you brought up this point. It is not right to simply quote a father and state his opinion as fact. Fact comes from a CONSENSUS of the father's along with approval of the Church. In this case, however, there are many other father's who share is opinion. Here are some further examples:
But chastity maintains the first rank in virgins, the second in those who are abstinent, the third in the case of wedlock. Yet in all it is glorious, with all its degrees. For even to maintain the marriage-faith is a matter of praise in the midst of so many bodily struggles; and to have determined on a limit in marriage defined by abstinence is more virtuous still, because herein even lawful things are refused. Assuredly to have guarded one's purity from the womb, and to have kept oneself an infant even to old age throughout the whole of life, is certainly the part of an admirable virtue; only that if never to have known the body's seductive capacities is the greater blessedness, to have overcome them when once known is the greater virtue. Yet still this virtue is a gift from God, although it manifests itself to men in their members...For if the apostle declares the Church to be the spouse of Christ, I beseech you consider what chastity is required, where the Church is given in marriage as a betrothed virgin...St. Cyprian
A great thing is virginity, and celibacy, and being ranked with the angels, and with the single nature; for I shrink from calling it Christ's, Who, though He willed to be born for our sakes who are born, by being born of a Virgin, enacted the law of virginity, to lead us away from this life, and cut short the power of the world, or rather, to transmit one world to another, the present to the future. – St. Gregory of Nazianzus
Good indeed is the procreation of children enjoined by the law, and good is marriage on account of fornications, for it does away with these, and by lawful intercourse does not permit the madness of desire to he caromed into unlawful acts. Good is marriage for those who have no abstinence. But virginity is better for it increases the fruitfulness of the soul and offers to God the seasonable fruit of prayer. Marriage is honorable and the bed undefiled, but God will judge whoremongers and adulterers. – St. John of Damascus
Perhaps you could post some church fathers who say otherwise so that we can have a more fruitful discussion. I tried to look for some, but was unable to find any.