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Coptic faith through an Arab lense
Hi guys,
I just thought id share this song I've just written to open a discussion I believe is a massive issue in our church today.
Obviously because my audience is largely secular, the images I used to convey the message were more popular, well known visions of Christians smothering Grace with hatred, however I think the attitude is also very strong within our Coptic Orthodox church.
I guess more specifically, it really comes through on the smaller things. (Let's put big issues like homosexuality/abortion/single mums etc aside for now). I believe since the Arab invasion of Egypt, it has been inevitable that we have absorbed (unwillingingly and unknowingly) a lot of their cultures and attitudes. i.e. if someone is different than you, they are frowned upon.
Why is it that my parents and everyone else like them will frown at someone who has tattoos, piercings or even coloured hair? There is no theological reason to think of these people as "further from God", yet being bought up in the Australian Coptic culture I have been - Ive had the impression that anyone remotely "off beat" is treated as toxic.
How, if we are unable to welcome people who look different, are we able to truly welcome people who are different? I'm talking of people who need Christian Grace more than anyone.
In the words of Philip Yancey;
"The worse a person felt about himself, the more likely she saw Jesus as a refuge. Has the church lost that gift?"
I just thought id share this song I've just written to open a discussion I believe is a massive issue in our church today.
Obviously because my audience is largely secular, the images I used to convey the message were more popular, well known visions of Christians smothering Grace with hatred, however I think the attitude is also very strong within our Coptic Orthodox church.
I guess more specifically, it really comes through on the smaller things. (Let's put big issues like homosexuality/abortion/single mums etc aside for now). I believe since the Arab invasion of Egypt, it has been inevitable that we have absorbed (unwillingingly and unknowingly) a lot of their cultures and attitudes. i.e. if someone is different than you, they are frowned upon.
Why is it that my parents and everyone else like them will frown at someone who has tattoos, piercings or even coloured hair? There is no theological reason to think of these people as "further from God", yet being bought up in the Australian Coptic culture I have been - Ive had the impression that anyone remotely "off beat" is treated as toxic.
How, if we are unable to welcome people who look different, are we able to truly welcome people who are different? I'm talking of people who need Christian Grace more than anyone.
In the words of Philip Yancey;
"The worse a person felt about himself, the more likely she saw Jesus as a refuge. Has the church lost that gift?"
Comments
I agree that a person's outward appearance doesn't mean they are closer to God. For example, a person without tattoos who is clean-shaven and well-groomed isn't closer to God by those facts alone than the guy with tats and earrings, etc.
However, I don't think from there we can jump to say that the guy with tats is close to God. He may be closer than the clean-shaven guy but the fact that he has tats, etc. means that he isn't close to God. This is under the assumption that after getting them he still believes they are OK and that his purple hair is fine as well. As long as he holds these beliefs he cannot be close to God. . .for reasons I don't want to get into but let's take it as granted for now.
Having said all that, that does not mean we push this person away or mark them with a scarlet letter.
I don't know if I can answer the question of whether the church is losing this quality of being a refuge place for the "different". . .
I'm sorry Andrew, but what biblical or theological evidence is there that tats or purple hair are frowned upon by God?
I find it so startling that you feel this way.
[quote author=Andrew link=topic=12518.msg146855#msg146855 date=1320036297] but the fact that he has tats, etc. means that he isn't close to God. This is under the assumption that after getting them he still believes they are OK and that his purple hair is fine as well. As long as he holds these beliefs he cannot be close to God.
I'm sorry Andrew, but what biblical or theological evidence is there that tats or purple hair are frowned upon by God?
I find it so startling that you feel this way.
I find it startling that you don't feel this way!
Let's start with this: [quote=Leveticus 19:28]"Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the LORD."
The fact of the matter is that our body does not belong to us, but is the Lord's. We are the temple of God. When we have ear-rings, piercings, tattoos, colored hair, etc. we are defacing the temple of God. Our bodies ought to be honored and respected so as to please God.
We should also ask what motivates one to get a tattoo or piercing, or even color their hair.
Is it to be "independent"? Standout? Be unique? Make some kind of statement? I mean what's the point?
The fathers teach us that we should rather adorn ourselves with charity and alms than with fine linen, jewels, and body modifications.
Check this article out on the topic.
Hi guys,
I just thought id share this song I've just written to open a discussion I believe is a massive issue in our church today.
Obviously because my audience is largely secular, the images I used to convey the message were more popular, well known visions of Christians smothering Grace with hatred, however I think the attitude is also very strong within our Coptic Orthodox church.
I guess more specifically, it really comes through on the smaller things. (Let's put big issues like homosexuality/abortion/single mums etc aside for now). I believe since the Arab invasion of Egypt, it has been inevitable that we have absorbed (unwillingingly and unknowingly) a lot of their cultures and attitudes. i.e. if someone is different than you, they are frowned upon.
Why is it that my parents and everyone else like them will frown at someone who has tattoos, piercings or even coloured hair? There is no theological reason to think of these people as "further from God", yet being bought up in the Australian Coptic culture I have been - Ive had the impression that anyone remotely "off beat" is treated as toxic.
How, if we are unable to welcome people who look different, are we able to truly welcome people who are different? I'm talking of people who need Christian Grace more than anyone.
In the words of Philip Yancey;
"The worse a person felt about himself, the more likely she saw Jesus as a refuge. Has the church lost that gift?"
I think there are 2 main points here and you're nailing one but not really touching on or dismissing the other.
I agree with you that there is a real lack of love and mercy in our congregations; all too often people would rather gossip or be scandalised by the way a person dresses or looks in person without regard for what their doing to the person that they might be gossiping about or even perhaps giving a bad look or word to if they feel bold enough to act on their thoughts. I can image that many youths who get lost in the world are going to acquire some bad habits and behaviours while they're there and they're going to bring this with them into the Church (which is a spiritual hospital more than anything else).
In the story of the Samaritan woman Christ met and talked with a Samaritan (a race normally shunned as outsiders by the Jews), it was offensive for a Jew to even speak to one so when Christ began to discourse with her she was surprised. He knew her really well and he knew her sins and He even demonstrates this by enumerating the number of partners which she had had. Despite all her sins Christ spoke gently with her and he never condemned her - he wanted to show her that he loved her much more than her sins and for the Samaritan the decision to change her life would have been one which came from Christ's gentleness more than any reproach or condemnation could.
God loves the drunk who lies inebriated in the gutter just as much as he loves the humanitarians among us. All of this is because God sees more to us than just our sins, where we make self judgement or valuations based on our deeds, Christ loves us because He is Love so even at our lowest point when the idea to do good is furthest from us, God still loves us. If we understood this we would never dare to judge one another, we would be much more interested in demonstrating the unconditional mercies and love of God for those who have fallen and give them drive and urgency to quickly return to His peace and love.
The second part of this is that if God loves us unconditionally because we are His image and likeness then it stands to reason that we cannot on the one hand claim to know and love God and then disregard how we honour Him as His image and likeness.
What I mean is that if we are these things then what we do with our bodies is very important; how we adorn and look after our bodies must be a form of expression of how we both love God and that we know Him. It is an expression that we love Him because we don't do anything displeasing to Him and it is an expression of knowing Him because we demonstrate that we are the image and the likeness in our own bodies.
A person will have a tattoo and cut or dye their hair as a form of self expression, to convey something to others about themselves. It is more important than anything else that we show modesty in how we portray ourselves to others. The reason for this is that people try to make louder and louder statements with how they dress but the greatest form of self expression in the early Church was that they showed people that they were Christians they knew God by how they lived, how they loved one another and forgave their enemies - they wanted to show to people in their words and deeds Jesus Christ.
Another reason why this modesty is really important is because it is the most fitting characteristic of God which we know. He was incarnated and spent the first night of His life in a stable; he then proceeded to live His life as a poor man who had no permanent place to live and spent His life dependant on the kindness of people who ministered to Him. We can contrast Christ as He appears in the eyes of His angels because no one knows how to bling it up like Christ. He has all power, all glory and all greatness but he never once in His lifetime flaunted it in openly as we do today; He said His Father had many mansions but never had an earthly place to live. He said His Father arrayed the poppies more beautifully than Solomon but he lived with very simple dress. He even said that He had heavenly riches which thieves cannot break in after and steal but He lived off the kind donations of others.
The point of this is that Christ at certain moments carefully chose to reveal His Glory - His True Self - privately when He went with Peter, James and John to a quiet place and was Gloriously Transfigured in front of them. This expression of His greatness is something which He didn't reveal openly, He did it in a secluded corner with trusted and chosen disciples and friends. Christ's display - if we can call it that - wasn't done in front of the masses, it was done discretely, He even went to far as to tell people to keep his miracles a secret, only doing them to people who trusted and believed in Him. If people didn't believe in Him or asked Him to do miracles as an exhibition of power He never heeded their requests.
God is much more shy and gentle than we realise, He is a faithful and true friend who cares nothing for outlandish display except for the outlandish display of His own crucifixion and shame which happened outside of the city, the death of a criminal. He even suffered the shame of being spat on, whipped, insulted and placed in the same graveyard where criminals were laid to rest.
And finally the lasting tattoo which Christ would bear for all eternity are the wounds on His hands and feet, a mark in the flesh of His death and love for us. If Christ lived with this kind of lowliness and modesty in His own Spotless, Pure, Holy and Sacred Body, don't we have a duty to do likewise? :)
Please pray for me,
LiD
[quote author=Coptic Soldier link=topic=12518.msg146856#msg146856 date=1320042890]
[quote author=Andrew link=topic=12518.msg146855#msg146855 date=1320036297] but the fact that he has tats, etc. means that he isn't close to God. This is under the assumption that after getting them he still believes they are OK and that his purple hair is fine as well. As long as he holds these beliefs he cannot be close to God.
I'm sorry Andrew, but what biblical or theological evidence is there that tats or purple hair are frowned upon by God?
I find it so startling that you feel this way.
I find it startling that you don't feel this way!
Let's start with this: [quote=Leveticus 19:28]"Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the LORD."
The fact of the matter is that our body does not belong to us, but is the Lord's. We are the temple of God. When we have ear-rings, piercings, tattoos, colored hair, etc. we are defacing the temple of God. Our bodies ought to be honored and respected so as to please God.
We should also ask what motivates one to get a tattoo or piercing, or even color their hair.
Is it to be "independent"? Standout? Be unique? Make some kind of statement? I mean what's the point?
The fathers teach us that we should rather adorn ourselves with charity and alms than with fine linen, jewels, and body modifications.
Check this article out on the topic.
I should draw your attention to the culture of the time RE; this verse Andrew. At the time, it was common practise for the people to tattoo both themselves and the dead bodies at funerals to "appease the (false) gods". It was barbaric; they use to cut, pierce and mark themselves in horrific and intentionally painful ways in order to appease these angry gods.
It is the practise of the Protestants to take a verse out of context and treat is as a litteral divine message, it is the art of the Orthodox to take every verse in it's context and understand the meaning behind the message.
Besides, how sinful are all our monks and leaders of our church to have cross tattoos on their wrists? :P (Not to mention most of their wives have their ears pierced).
The trick is to really study verses Andrew, it is very dangerous to have a militant attitude about verses when taking them out of context.
@DivineIsLove - give me a minute to formulate my response to you, I have agreed with some of your points :)
God bless, thanks for the discussion guys.
Luke
I should draw your attention to the culture of the time RE; this verse Andrew. At the time, it was common practise for the people to tattoo both themselves and the dead bodies at funerals to "appease the (false) gods". It was barbaric; they use to cut, pierce and mark themselves in horrific and intentionally painful ways in order to appease these angry gods.
It is the practise of the Protestants to take a verse out of context and treat is as a litteral divine message, it is the art of the Orthodox to take every verse in it's context and understand the meaning behind the message.
Besides, how sinful are all our monks and leaders of our church to have cross tattoos on their wrists? :P (Not to mention most of their wives have their ears pierced).
The trick is to really study verses Andrew, it is very dangerous to have a militant attitude about verses when taking them out of context.
I appreciate your concern that I am taking things out of context, Luke. I thought about that before posting the verse but still felt that it was relevant.
As you have stated, this was some type of pagan practice. Why should we participate in it?
[quote=Ephesians 5:8-13, NIV]8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light 9 (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth) 10 and find out what pleases the Lord. 11 Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 It is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret. 13 But everything exposed by the light becomes visible—and everything that is illuminated becomes a light.
You point to the example of Copts with small cross tattoos on their wrists. This counter-factual doesn't do it for me. It seems that you have left context aside. The people of Egypt do this for reasons you already know concerning tensions with Muslims. So, a girl that is stamped with a cross so that in the unfortunate case she is abducted may be forever marked as Christian does not commit a sin. The one who does not face these troubles and does it for style and gets the nice design in the cross with great detail is being, in my opinion, vain.
However, all what I just wrote is concerning Christian style tattoos. What of random secular things like a joker face or some ying/yang symbol? I think it is clear that these point to a lack of spiritual maturity. The body is not something for us to adorn as we like, as if it were our own. We should ask if the Lord would be pleased if we covered ourselves with tattoos. It reveals some deep desire to change what the Lord has formed, as if it was not good enough. Or it may point to a desire to be recognized or make a statement.
I am not saying people with tattoos are sinners who will be eternally damned. I am simply saying that if we are striving for Christian perfection we need to honor the body God gave us, the way He gave it to us. We need not add on to it with modifications that take away glory from His holy name.
You point to the example of Copts with small cross tattoos on their wrists. This counter-factual doesn't do it for me. It seems that you have left context aside. The people of Egypt do this for reasons you already know concerning tensions with Muslims. So, a girl that is stamped with a cross so that in the unfortunate case she is abducted may be forever marked as Christian does not commit a sin. The one who does not face these troubles and does it for style and gets the nice design in the cross with great detail is being, in my opinion, vain.
However, all what I just wrote is concerning Christian style tattoos. What of random secular things like a joker face or some ying/yang symbol? I think it is clear that these point to a lack of spiritual maturity. The body is not something for us to adorn as we like, as if it were our own. We should ask if the Lord would be pleased if we covered ourselves with tattoos. It reveals some deep desire to change what the Lord has formed, as if it was not good enough. Or it may point to a desire to be recognized or make a statement.
I am not saying people with tattoos are sinners who will be eternally damned. I am simply saying that if we are striving for Christian perfection we need to honor the body God gave us, the way He gave it to us. We need not add on to it with modifications that take away glory from His holy name.
I know the reasons behind the Coptic culture of tattoos and I think it was a very necessary action in the context of the time. But my point is this;
Either tattooing is a sin, and the Coptic Christians sinned in order to be reminded "not to sin" or tattooing is simply not a sin and the Coptic Christians used this to protect their identity, in which case most tattooing for positive reasons is also ok.
I do agree with you that some tattooing is harmful spiritually; but only in the same way that listening to certain types of music can be harmful. i.e. I believe music is one of our most spiritual outlets on earth and we can use this to gain a closer relationship with God, or or move further from him. (e.g. by listening to satanic records.) My problem with this is that it is largely subjective. If someone puts on lipstick on or gells their hair are they not making modifications? Yet for some reason our culture has deemed this extremely acceptable while frowning on someone who has a small tattoo that symbolises their relationship with a wife, a dead family member or even an identification of some great achievement.
Where do we draw the line? I believe our culture has taken the responsibility of determining what modifcations are and are not acceptable regardless of culture or context. I think this is dangerous and is a massive barrier from truly embracing a graceful Christian heart.
Regardless, the Christian accepts and loves all people alike. I think we can agree on that. We should not presume someone is a 'sinner' because they have tattoos or ear-rings, etc. But we should not act like getting those things do not most of the time stand in the way of reaching Christian perfection. We should not be concerned with the body.
So far the discussion has been me arguing why we shouldn't modify the body.
May I ask you to offer some reasons to get tattoos or ear-rings, etc. ? We should have reasons for the things we do with the body that belongs to God. . .
i think that 'tribal' (gang/music) tattoos that glorify violence are in a different category, though, so i am not discussing this now.
but to look down on someone for small ankle/wrist/bellybutton tattoos that are completely mainstream for many young people in many countries is by no means a sign of rebellion or exhibitionism. these things need to be looked at in context.
e.g. when i came back to work after a sudanese wedding, i complimented one of my clients on a very pretty wrist tattoo that looked very similar to my henna.
yes, i wore henna! maybe i am 'far from God' to adorn myself like that...
;)
yeah, i agree that we shouldn't consider the egyptian/sudanese habit of spending 2 to 4 hours getting ready for a wedding (and i don't mean the bride and groom!) and then wearing the most expensive, glittery clothes available in your town as equal to having purple hair or your kid's name tattooed on your ankle.
Please elaborate. Wow! By that logic anything that is "mainstream" is suddenly OK if it is not obviously harmful.
Just because everyone has a tattoo of a flower on their ankle doesn't mean it is OK for the Christian to do so.
Again, I never advocated looking down on anyone. On the contrary, seeing someone take great care to adorn themselves outwardly, I should remember how little effort I put to adorn my soul with the virtues. What is the purpose in wearing a henna?
Again, I never said that one is far from God by virtue of adorning themselves but that you can never be intimately united with Him. This is because by adorning yourself you lack an appreciation for your body as the temple of God that should remain unblemished, as it was given to you.
What motivates people to adorn themselves? It cannot be anything spiritual. If it is not spiritual, it is pointless.
[quote author=Coptic Soldier link=topic=12518.msg146865#msg146865 date=1320057594]
Either tattooing is a sin, and the Coptic Christians sinned in order to be reminded "not to sin" or tattooing is simply not a sin and the Coptic Christians used this to protect their identity, in which case most tattooing for positive reasons is also ok.
Second of all:
[quote author=Andrew link=topic=12518.msg146866#msg146866 date=1320059095]
It is not subjective. The person who takes time to gel their hair, put make-up, etc. is also modifying the body. The difference is the degree. A tattoo cannot be rinsed in the sink at the end of the day. It remains. Therefore, the decision to get one is greater and the backlash usually more severe.
It is absolutely subjective, the fact that you believe it is not makes me assume you need to re-visit your definition. Just because something is permanent, does not mean it is more harmful than something that is not. i.e. Someone who spends hours on their make up every morning to conform to a certain body image is a result of major insecurities developed by our gloss magazine/pronified culture we live in. To me, this shows a greater distance from God than any tattoo of a dead relative ever could.
I really admire your question and intent to open the discussion up for “reasons to get tattoos” etc. I personally do not have a tattoo so I am yet to find a strong enough reason personally, however I definitely see appropriate reasons (and even spiritually healthy reasons) to get them for others. Here are a couple examples of what I mean.
1) Many Olympic athletes get the Olympic rings tattooed on their ankle after they compete in competition. Whether they are Christian or not, I see an incredible spiritual experience which results in someone getting such a tattoo. They have worked incredibly hard their whole life, and by the grace of God they were able to achieve their dream and compete in the greatest competition in the world, to me the tattoo symbolises this achievement and this “thanks” is more significant than any trophy or photo album at home. (I am assuming pride is out of the equation here and the humbleness is genuine, obviously the same tattoo can be spiritually harmful).
2) Many of my friends have tattoos of their lost relatives. These are relatives who have meant the world to them, helped them grow as people and grow spiritually (whether they are aware of it or not). This I think is an extremely positive reason to get a tattoo and is a constant reminder of the contribution to their lives.
The above examples are intentionally secular examples, however you can understand the many in depth reasons for people in the western world getting verses or crosses tattooed. Obviously, these examples only come into play if they are in fact they are getting the tattoo for genuine reasons. (as I mentioned above)
I do agree with both yourself and the other posters that if anyone gets a tattoo to damage, defame or destroy their body/the image of God, or to do it to offend or rebel it is spiritually harmful. As we have seen however, especially with the Coptic Christians, not all tattoos are spiritually harmful.
The Coptic Christians who got the cross sinned unknowingly and without intention. Most of them who got these tattoos were too young to even decide for themselves.
There is no such thing as getting a tattoo for a positive reason. Why does someone need to tattoo a loved one on their arm? Will they really forget the date they passed away? Maybe to show people that they really loved the person?
Why does the athlete need to tattoo the rings on themselves? How does that show God thanks? Wouldn't prayer, almsgiving, etc. do a better job of that.
Why does the athlete need to tattoo the rings on themselves? How does that show God thanks? Wouldn't prayer, almsgiving, etc. do a better job of that.
Can I offer a possible answer to your questions? It may not be a sufficient answer and it may be way too philosophical to be convincing but hear me out.
Tattooing is an aggressive form of physical adornment, not much different than very elaborate dresses, expensive watches, rings, accessories, hair styles, Armani suites, Rolex watches and so on. They are all adornment of the body. We can't argue that we should maintain our bodies, the temples of God, unblemished as God gave us by remaining completely naked (i.e., the purpose of adornment of the body need not be sinful but it may simply be necessity). I agree that complete nakedness does unite you more with God as it did with Adam in the Paradise of Eden. But adornment of the body is not evil. This does not justify excessive or aggressive adornment but absolutism is not the default.
The second question maybe a little more difficult to answer. Let's look at the 14th part of the Sunday Theotokia. There is a section that starts by saying, "You decorated our souls, O Moses the Prophet, by the honor of the tabernacle, which you have adorned." The tabernacle was physically adorned. This physical adornment lead to our own spiritual adornment, as we state by the phrase "You decorated our souls". This must be spiritual adornment, not physical. I'm not saying tattooing or most physical adornment will always lead to spiritual adornment. But just like Moses did not know his adornment of the tabernacle was a typology of St Mary and "the example of the highest in the shadow of the heavenly ones", so too any sort of physical adornment might be a spiritual adornment to someone as Coptic Solider alluded too.
The problem I see, Andrew, with adjudicating that all tattooing is always a sin is that doesn't take into account the spirit of Leviticus 19. It seems to me that God is telling the Israelites "You shall be holy, for I the Lord your God am holy." Whenever he gives a commandment that forbids an action, he gives a reason. For example, eating a peace offering on the first two days is allowed but on the third day is an abomination. Then the Lord gives the reason, "because he has profaned the hallowed offering of the Lord." Another example, "You shall not prostitute your daughter, to cause her to be a harlot." The the Lord gives the reason, "lest the land fall into harlotry, and the land become full of wickedness." Don't be wicked because your God is not wicked but holy. The last 3 verses of what the Israelites shall not do have no reason: No eating blood, no divination, no shaving your the sides of your head, no disfiguring your beard, no cutting in your flesh for the dead, and finally no tattoos. The only reason is that I am the Lord (and I am holy).
If you feel tattooing makes you unholy then it is forbidden. However, if tattooing makes you unholy simply because it is listed in Leviticus 19, then why is shaving your head (which many Christian males do) not a cause of unholiness? If it is a cause of unholiness, then why do we continue it since it will deviate from the spirit of Leviticus 19: to be holy like God?
Prayer, fasting and almsgiving is unquestionably a good way to decorate your spirit. But decorating your body is not inherently evil. What matters most is we never forget the Lord calls us to be holy. Does a tattoo of a cross make you unholy? Possibly but not absolutely.
You lost me with the 14th part of the Sunday Theotokia. . .
I mean the tabernacle was adorned physically because it couldn't be adorned any other way.
It is not that the tattoo makes you unholy per se. It is the thought that leads one to get a tattoo that makes it so he reasoned incorrectly and therefore acted incorrectly. While I do think we should leave our bodies unblemished that isn't my main point of contention.
What leads one to get a tattoo cannot be purely spiritual.
But I must retract from my absolute statement that all tattoos are sins, I am in no position to say that.
[quote author=Andrew link=topic=12518.msg146899#msg146899 date=1320114670]
Why does the athlete need to tattoo the rings on themselves? How does that show God thanks? Wouldn't prayer, almsgiving, etc. do a better job of that.
Can I offer a possible answer to your questions? It may not be a sufficient answer and it may be way too philosophical to be convincing but hear me out.
Tattooing is an aggressive form of physical adornment, not much different than very elaborate dresses, expensive watches, rings, accessories, hair styles, Armani suites, Rolex watches and so on. They are all adornment of the body. We can't argue that we should maintain our bodies, the temples of God, unblemished as God gave us by remaining completely naked (i.e., the purpose of adornment of the body need not be sinful but it may simply be necessity). I agree that complete nakedness does unite you more with God as it did with Adam in the Paradise of Eden. But adornment of the body is not evil. This does not justify excessive or aggressive adornment but absolutism is not the default.
The second question maybe a little more difficult to answer. Let's look at the 14th part of the Sunday Theotokia. There is a section that starts by saying, "You decorated our souls, O Moses the Prophet, by the honor of the tabernacle, which you have adorned." The tabernacle was physically adorned. This physical adornment lead to our own spiritual adornment, as we state by the phrase "You decorated our souls". This must be spiritual adornment, not physical. I'm not saying tattooing or most physical adornment will always lead to spiritual adornment. But just like Moses did not know his adornment of the tabernacle was a typology of St Mary and "the example of the highest in the shadow of the heavenly ones", so too any sort of physical adornment might be a spiritual adornment to someone as Coptic Solider alluded too.
The problem I see, Andrew, with adjudicating that all tattooing is always a sin is that doesn't take into account the spirit of Leviticus 19. It seems to me that God is telling the Israelites "You shall be holy, for I the Lord your God am holy." Whenever he gives a commandment that forbids an action, he gives a reason. For example, eating a peace offering on the first two days is allowed but on the third day is an abomination. Then the Lord gives the reason, "because he has profaned the hallowed offering of the Lord." Another example, "You shall not prostitute your daughter, to cause her to be a harlot." The the Lord gives the reason, "lest the land fall into harlotry, and the land become full of wickedness." Don't be wicked because your God is not wicked but holy. The last 3 verses of what the Israelites shall not do have no reason: No eating blood, no divination, no shaving your the sides of your head, no disfiguring your beard, no cutting in your flesh for the dead, and finally no tattoos. The only reason is that I am the Lord (and I am holy).
If you feel tattooing makes you unholy then it is forbidden. However, if tattooing makes you unholy simply because it is listed in Leviticus 19, then why is shaving your head (which many Christian males do) not a cause of unholiness? If it is a cause of unholiness, then why do we continue it since it will deviate from the spirit of Leviticus 19: to be holy like God?
Prayer, fasting and almsgiving is unquestionably a good way to decorate your spirit. But decorating your body is not inherently evil. What matters most is we never forget the Lord calls us to be holy. Does a tattoo of a cross make you unholy? Possibly but not absolutely.
Amen.
What leads one to get a tattoo cannot be purely spiritual.
But it might be in some cases? :)
[quote author=Andrew link=topic=12518.msg146908#msg146908 date=1320124396]
But I must retract from my absolute statement that all tattoos are sins, I am in no position to say that.
Amen.
Thanks for the thoughtful reply, George.
You lost me with the 14th part of the Sunday Theotokia. . .
I mean the tabernacle was adorned physically because it couldn't be adorned any other way.
You're correct. Moses adorned the tabernacle with physical "accessories". These are the golden vessel of manna, the rod of Aaron, the golden censer, the coal, the incense, the golden Cherubim cover, the altar of burn offerings, etc. What I think the 14th part of the Sunday Theotokia is saying is that physical adornment of the tabernacle led to spiritual adornment. Physical adornment, if it is following "the example of the highest and the shadow of heavenly things", will lead to spiritual adornment. There is a spiritual meaning in physical adornment - at least for the Tabernacle of Meeting. And Moses did not know it. He was not told that the tabernacle is a physical replica of the Virgin Mary. In the same way, physical adornment, whether clothing or tattooing, can lead to spiritual adornment. This does not mean all physical adornment leads to spiritual adornment because many tangible adornment is a sign of pride. The intention and spirit of gospel must be upheld in any physical adornment. It seems to me that most Copts tattoo the cross to fulfill the words of St Paul in Galatians, "May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.". In this case, the thought was holy and the reasoning correct. Therefore, the tattoo is a sign of holiness which fulfills the spirit of Leviticus 19. I think it is a personal choice to display a tattoo of holiness. I personally don't see a real need to display it but others do. I know where you are coming from. I know the spirit fights against the body and it logically follows that physical adornment cannot be spiritual. However, this isn't absolutely and necessarily true. Spiritual growth occurs through the physical senses. When Jesus told the Samaritan woman, "God is spirit and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." If this were absolutely true, then there would be no need for physical churches, physical elements in the sacraments (oil, water, bread, wine, laying of hands, crowns, etc) and fasting, etc. All we would need to do is sit anywhere and worship rationally. However, God is the one who gave us instructions to use physical elements for our worship. Spiritual worship always involves some physical action. The two are not mutually exclusive and absolutely divergent of each other. Therefore, I don't think anything we physically do can be purely or absolutely spiritual and physical actions can be practically defined as "purely" spiritual (including tattoos).
Does this make sense?
The last bit was interesting: