http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=2645149766556Ari-efmevee Part of the Coptic Gregorian Liturgy prayed by Father Bishoy El Komos Luka and Ibrahim Ayad.
Ibrahim Ayad answers:
''Osperin ke estin ke estin is geneas geneon ke estos sin pantas eonaston eonon amin.''
Is this a second Osperin we can say in the gregorian liturgy or did he/they actually correct with proper grammar the one we know. (Osperin ke este estin apo geneas is genean ke pantas tos eonaston eonon amin)
Until I give him a call and get an answer. What do you guys think ?
Thanks.
Comments
The English Translation to that would be: As it was and is, it shall also be unto generations of generations and unto all the ages of the ages. Amen
If you look up any new published Kholagy (ex, the litugy book published by the "Diocese of Southern United States"), you will find on page 304; 2 different responses for osperin. Written consecutively.
The fact is: The first one which is the one Ibrahim Ayaad sang in the video is the one for the Gregorian Mass, while the other one which is the most prevalent is the one from the liturgy of St Basil.
The St Basil Osperin has become the most prevelant to the extent that so many churches sing it with any of the 3 liturgies( Basil, Cyril & Gregorian) even in my church!
In conclusion, the one in the video is the correct one for the Gregorian Liturgy. It is not a new response, it has always been around in books but unforunately lost in many churches due to singing the St Basil Liturgy most of the time and using its responses (osperin) with the Gregorian liturgy a well.
I really hope I answered Your question. Pray for me.
Here are some other interesting videos.
Esma3i - by Fr Bishoy El Komos Luka
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=2547439923871
Alternate Litany of the Gospel (Coptic) - by Fr Bishoy El Komos Luka
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=2369616158388
Ef Emepsha (Anaphora Coptic Gregorian Liturgy) - by Ibrahim Ayad
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=2573592097659
Owoh Nai Nem - by Fr. Barsoum Shaker
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=2393922646035
(if anyone has recent liturgies of his, please share)
Where do you I get all this.. http://www.facebook.com/video/?id=172904199425504
Enjoy!
Thank you very much.
These are very rare , beautiful and valuable Videos.
May our lord bless you.
Is it said in the same way you end "Vol Evol?" or is there another way?
Can someone post the words of the other "osperin"? I couldn't find it on this site and I don't have the new Southern diocese liturgical book.
maybe when i get home tonit i'll copy it from the muharaq book.
I don't have the alternate text of osper so I can't comment on it until someone posts it here. But the traditional text is very specific and it is the Arabic translation that changes the meaning. Without saying "it is", the meaning changes. It means, "what was happening will happen but doesn't necessarily happen now." This is a problem since it ignores the significance of the hymn osper. (By the way, I didn't fully understand this until I examined the nuances of the Greek language, which I hope everyone would learn)
Osper is strategically placed in the liturgy to remind us of God's eternal providence. The commemoration of saints focuses on the past and past saints. Then the priest says "Those O Lord who souls you have taken..." This is still past tense. But the narrative switches to the present when the priests says, "And we too who are sojourners in this world, keep us in Your faith and grant us Your peace until the end". Then the priest continues "Lead us throughout the way into Your kingdom....make us worthy to raise this holy and immortal mystery". Then the remaining part of the liturgy speaks of a heavenly banquet. This speaks of the banquet we are about to partake of. This is the future tense. What is "it" in the hymn Osper? Osper is saying, "As God kept the saints in His faith and granted His peace to the saints of the past, God keeps us and grants us peace and makes us worthy of the heavenly banquet we are going to partake of and he will continue doing all of this in future generations until the end of the world." Osper, in essence, stresses the power of the Church and how the gates of Hades will "never overcome it" Mat 16:17. It also stresses the Creed because we believe "His kingdom shall have no end."
If we take out the "it is" phrase, as the Arabic translation does, we are stating the "God helped the saints in the past and kept peace and peace will return in the future but it is not here now." We have removed our declaration of faith that God definitively provides providence, strength and peace now in this Eucharistic sacrifice. We are slowly beginning to slip into the heresy of deism, "the belief in the existence of a supreme being, specifically of a creator who does not intervene in the universe." Source.
I hope all deacons insist on including the phrase "it is" in osper. I pray everyone, deacon, clergy and laity, continue to understand the order and structure of our liturgy is truly divinely inspired and so much enlightenment can come from a deeper examination guided by the scriptures and Church fathers.
What are your thoughts?
Wcper yn ke ectin ke ecte ic geneac genewn ke ic touc cumpantac `e`wnac twn `e`wnwn `amyn.
The arabic that goes with it:
كما كان وهو كذلك يكون إلى أجيال الأجيال وإلى سائر دهور الداهرين آمين.
This is the text Burmester has in his description of the Coptic Church. The exact translation is "As it was (and) it is and it will be from generation to generation and to all the ages of the ages." Although the Greek has the "and", I put in parentheses because English grammar would require it removed because of the preposition "as".
I may be misunderstanding Arabic, so correct me if I'm wrong Mina. The exact translation from Arabic would be "As it was and it likewise will be to the generations of generations and to the rest of the ages of ages". You should notice again the omission of the present tense or the phrase "it is".
By the way, I forgot to mention before that the traditional text of osper currently used is exactly translated as "As it was and it will be, it is from generation to generation and the age of all ages."
I may be misunderstanding Arabic, so correct me if I'm wrong Mina. The exact translation from Arabic would be "As it was and it likewise will be to the generations of generations and to the rest of the ages of ages". You should notice again the omission of the present tense or the phrase "it is".
that sounds right.....kind of weird thoo considering that the arabic translation in the muharaq book tends to be more literal to the original.
Oujai