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The "Oud" with Hymns?

andrew8345andrew8345
edited December 1969 in Coptic Orthodox Church
What do you all think about the hymns accompanied by the "Oud"?

I bring up the "Oud" because I am noticing that it is becoming more fashionable along hymns (especially in Egypt), but you can throw in the guitar, piano, drums, etc. in the discussion as well. . . Is it OK to use these instruments while praying alhan?

Thanks in advance.
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Comments

  • TITLTITL
    I LOVE THE 3OUD!!!!!

    I play the piano to hymns and no one has yelled at me yet, so I think it's OK!  ;D
  • imikhailimikhail
    No musical instruments should be played during liturgical prayers.
  • Unknown
    Hey guys,

    When it comes to liturgical prayers, they cannot be used. We stick to the instruments handed down to us from earlier generations which were given to us to keep a beat. There is nothing inherently wrong with the instruments themselves, for David himself urges us to use many different instruments. I believe that is just the way they are played, where, and when. In the church, we have what we nee, and there is no need to "spice it up" with other instruments. It causes distraction from the miracle of miracles occurring on the altar.

    From SUSCopts question and answers:

    Will the Coptic Church in America, during its services, ever endorse the use of Western musical instruments such as the piano or acoustic guitar instead of cymbals and triangles? Will Worship in the Orthodox church ever be westernized?

    I wonder if those people who want to westernize worship and the Coptic music have a good reason for that; or is it just a matter of taste? The use of cymbals and triangles only is not a matter of being carved in stone; but of tradition and heritage. The cymbals have been used in worship since the time of David the king. The limited use of instruments enhances the spiritual experience; while excessive use detracts from it, especially when it discourages or distracts the congregation's participation. Another important point is experiencing unity in our churches both in and out of our motherland Egypt. Nothing would warm the heart of a "displaced parishioner" more than to hear the familiar melodies outside of their home land. The wonderful thing in our worship in the Coptic Orthodox church is that no matter which continent, country, city or church you attend, you will hear the same liturgical hymns with the same instruments.

    The piano, guitar and many other instruments are used in our Coptic Orthodox praises and Christian songs outside the services. All the new CDs and tapes of hymns and praises have traditional hymns with new musical arrangements and various musical instruments. Let us distinguish between our worship during the liturgies and the praises we offer our Lord outside of the church services and enjoy having both

    Bishop Youssef

    Although musical instruments are mentioned in the Holy Book of Psalm 150 and the Holy Book of Rev 5:8, it is often said that musical instruments are not to be used in the New Testament. Is this restricted to liturgical worship or does it cover sermons and presentations as well. I see that instruments are used in the Cathedral before His Holiness Wednesday's lecture.

    During liturgical worship the use of musical instruments is limited to the cymbals and the triangle. During a church celebration, on special occasions such as the feast of a saint or a visit of His Holiness the Pope or a bishop it is common to have a choir with accompanying music.

    Bishop Youssef

    On the practical side, I love songs with the 3ood but it must be played lightly. I listen to them sometimes, and sometimes they happen to be hymns. I may be wrong in doing so, but if I am, just give me the word, and I will stop.

    ReturnOrthodoxy
  • HolmesHolmes
    + Irini nem ehmot,

    The points raised about musical instruments played during liturgical prayer are moot. I don't believe for one second Andrew either explicitly or implicitly meant that the 3oud should be played during liturgical prayers. Hymns and alhan can be sung at any time and are not just restricted during liturgy. As such, outside of the liturgical context, there is nothing wrong with accompanying hymns and alhan with a musical instrument. For instance, in the creation of CDs and such, there would be no problem with chanting hymns or singing alhan with the 3oud, piano, guitar or drums.
  • andrew8345andrew8345
    You're right, Cephas. I was referring to non-liturgical settings (e.g. Youth meetings).
  • TITLTITL
    ...I don't play the piano during the Liturgy.
  • Unknown
    Cephas and Andrew,

    The points I raised were as you said about outside the liturgy. I, like you, do not believe that he Andrew meant during the liturgy, but I just put it out there so that if someone were to ask later the answer would already be posted. Sorry if you thought I meant to say that Andrew wanted to talk about music in the liturgy.

    I agree completely with you Cephas about music outside church (in fact, that was what was quoted in part in the response by H.G. which I posted), and I am sure if the topic were to be brought up, we would agree about what happens inside the liturgical services.

    Sorry for the misunderstanding.

    ReturnOrthodoxy
  • imikhailimikhail
    My personal opinion is that no musical instruments should accompany liturgical hymns; neither within the liturgical services nor outside it.

    The Coptic hymns are rich and if prayed as they should be is enough to move the soul .

  • TITLTITL
    What about musical instruments playing liturgical hymns, but not accompanying.. like this:

  • TITLTITL
    Also imikhail, why are you always so grumpy on the forum?

    I've noticed that with... all your posts.
  • ashsofennoub
    imikhail, I don't see why you have to be so extremist with this attitude. While it is not permissible in the least to play any instruments in liturgical settings except the traditional cymbals and triangle, I believe it is perfectly acceptable to play instruments to hymns and praises, Coptic or not, as long as this is outside of liturgical settings.
    In Atai Parthenos, we sing about David's praises with the ten-stringed harp. In fact, in Psalm 150, David tells us to "Praise the Lord with the sound of the trumpet," and again "Praise the Lord with stringed instruments and flutes."
    In praise of the Lord, there is nothing wrong with using instruments.
    AshSofEnnoub
  • Unknown
    In defense of imikhail,

    He does not seem to be against music with instruments, so using the 150th psalm to argue with him is not applicable. No-one said not to play instruments to spiritual songs, but it seems imikhail does not like them being played to Coptic Hymns. In fact, the title of the thread is about "Ood with HYMNS." It is his opinion that Coptic hymns are best kept without instruments. This is his opinion, and may be correct.

    Although the instruments are kept out of church, it may be correct to say that having heard them with hyped music outside church, upon entry into the church, they seem dull the way they are sung, and so the mind begins to wander within the liturgy. The things we do outside the liturgy inevitably have an effect on our prayer in the liturgy. To take a liturgical hymn and play with it may cause a distraction when it is sung in it's simplicity within the liturgical setting.

    I could be wrong, and for that, I appologize, and I hope that we can learn something from each other, and that if I am wrong, somebody will kindly enlighten me. imikhail, I am sorry if I misuderstood your post.

    ReturnOrthodoxy
  • HolmesHolmes
    + Irini nem ehmot,

    [quote author=TITL link=topic=12575.msg147619#msg147619 date=1321494530]
    Also imikhail, why are you always so grumpy on the forum?

    I've noticed that with... all your posts.


    [quote author=ashsofennoub link=topic=12575.msg147620#msg147620 date=1321496015]
    imikhail, I don't see why you have to be so extremist with this attitude.


    All too easy...
  • ashsofennoub
    I may have misunderstood. I disagree entirely with the idea of instruments with liturgical hymns. Forgive me.
    My intention was to justify the use of instruments with praises and spiritual songs outside of liturgical functions.
    AshSofEnooub
  • andrew8345andrew8345
    [quote author=ReturnOrthodoxy link=topic=12575.msg147622#msg147622 date=1321496900]
    In defense of imikhail,

    He does not seem to be against music with instruments, so using the 150th psalm to argue with him is not applicable. No-one said not to play instruments to spiritual songs, but it seems imikhail does not like them being played to Coptic Hymns. In fact, the title of the thread is about "Ood with HYMNS." It is his opinion that Coptic hymns are best kept without instruments. This is his opinion, and may be correct.

    Although the instruments are kept out of church, it may be correct to say that having heard them with hyped music outside church, upon entry into the church, they seem dull the way they are sung, and so the mind begins to wander within the liturgy. The things we do outside the liturgy inevitably have an effect on our prayer in the liturgy. To take a liturgical hymn and play with it may cause a distraction when it is sung in it's simplicity within the liturgical setting.

    I could be wrong, and for that, I appologize, and I hope that we can learn something from each other, and that if I am wrong, somebody will kindly enlighten me. imikhail, I am sorry if I misuderstood your post.

    ReturnOrthodoxy
    (emphasis mine)

    I think I have the same concern.

    The reason why I am not completely convinced that for some reason once we are outside of a liturgical "anything goes," as far as instruments, is because there is no reason to hold that view. Why does being outside the liturgy make it alright? We are still praising God. We are still in His presence.

    On top of that, one of the major arguments against instruments in liturgical worship is that it takes away from the people and focuses on sounds and beats, produces intense FEELINGS, etc. Why not use these same arguments for outside the liturgy?
  • HolmesHolmes
    + Irini nem ehmot,

    [quote author=Andrew link=topic=12575.msg147628#msg147628 date=1321499090]
    On top of that, one of the major arguments against instruments in liturgical worship is that it takes away from the people and focuses on sounds and beats, produces intense FEELINGS, etc. Why not use these same arguments for outside the liturgy?


    Because it's lame?
  • imikhailimikhail
    [quote author=TITL link=topic=12575.msg147619#msg147619 date=1321494530]
    Also imikhail, why are you always so grumpy on the forum?

    I've noticed that with... all your posts.


    Thanks for reading ALL my posts.
  • imikhailimikhail
    Thanks for Andrew and Returntoorthodoxy for elaborating on my thought process.

    You both have articulated very well what I wanted to say.
  • abrahamfabrahamf
    [quote author=ReturnOrthodoxy link=topic=12575.msg147622#msg147622 date=1321496900]

    Although the instruments are kept out of church, it may be correct to say that having heard them with hyped music outside church, upon entry into the church, they seem dull the way they are sung, and so the mind begins to wander within the liturgy. The things we do outside the liturgy inevitably have an effect on our prayer in the liturgy. To take a liturgical hymn and play with it may cause a distraction when it is sung in it's simplicity within the liturgical setting.

    ReturnOrthodoxy


    Very valid point!

    But I must say that for learning purposes, using the 3ood as an accompaniment does really help with learning the hymn. Just to get the general gist of the tune.
     
  • andrew8345andrew8345
    [quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=12575.msg147632#msg147632 date=1321500540]
    + Irini nem ehmot,

    [quote author=Andrew link=topic=12575.msg147628#msg147628 date=1321499090]
    On top of that, one of the major arguments against instruments in liturgical worship is that it takes away from the people and focuses on sounds and beats, produces intense FEELINGS, etc. Why not use these same arguments for outside the liturgy?


    Because it's lame?


    If lame for the non-liturgical setting, do you also think it is lame for the liturgical one?
  • andrew8345andrew8345
    [quote author=ashsofennoub link=topic=12575.msg147624#msg147624 date=1321497236]
    I may have misunderstood. I disagree entirely with the idea of instruments with liturgical hymns. Forgive me.
    My intention was to justify the use of instruments with praises and spiritual songs outside of liturgical functions.
    AshSofEnooub


    Why do you disagree completely?
  • ashsofennoub
    [quote author=Andrew link=topic=12575.msg147639#msg147639 date=1321504811]
    [quote author=ashsofennoub link=topic=12575.msg147624#msg147624 date=1321497236]
    I may have misunderstood. I disagree entirely with the idea of instruments with liturgical hymns. Forgive me.
    My intention was to justify the use of instruments with praises and spiritual songs outside of liturgical functions.
    AshSofEnooub


    Why do you disagree completely?


    While I have an opinion, it's just that; an opinion.
    "The limited use of instruments enhances the spiritual experience; while excessive use detracts from it, especially when it discourages or distracts the congregation's participation." - Bishop Youssef (http://www.suscopts.org/q&a/index.php?qid=331&catid=267)
    The liturgy is one of the most traditional rites in the Orthodox Church. To change it by adding instruments is to take away its Orthodoxy.

    "David formerly sang songs, also today we sing hymns. He had a lyre with lifeless strings, the church has a lyre with living strings. Our tongues are the strings of the lyre with a different tone indeed but much more in accordance with piety. Here there is no need for the cithara, or for stretched strings, or for the plectrum, or for art, or for any instrument; but, if you like, you may yourself become a cithara, mortifying the members of the flesh and making a full harmony of mind and body. For when the flesh no longer lusts against the Spirit, but has submitted to its orders and has been led at length into the best and most admirable path, then will you create a spiritual melody."
    St. John Chrysostom

    "Of old at the time those of the circumcision were worshipping with symbols and types it was not inappropriate to send up hymns to God with the psalterion and cithara and to do this on Sabbath days... We render our hymn with a living psalterion and a living cithara with spiritual songs. The unison voices of Christians would be more acceptable to God than any musical instrument. Accordingly in all the churches of God, united in soul and attitude, with one mind and in agreement of faith and piety we send up a unison melody in the words of the Psalms."
    St. Eusebius

    According to St. John Chrysostom and St. Eusebius, our voices are the instruments we use in church, as our voices unite us and render us living strings to create a spiritual melody, rather than an emotional melody. The hymns of the liturgy were not intended to excite emotion, but rather to move the soul.
    When you take these hymns outside of the church, they are still hymns, meant to move the soul. If you read the gospel outside of church, does it not have the same meaning and the same purpose?
    The purpose of the hymns is to create a melody of the spirit, not necessarily pleasing to the ear, and to move the soul. To put excessive instruments to these hymns, according to the Fathers, is not necessary, for the acceptable offering is our voices.
    Again, most of that last part there is opinion, so please correct me if I am mistaken.

    AshSofEnnoub
  • TITLTITL
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=12575.msg147633#msg147633 date=1321500630]
    [quote author=TITL link=topic=12575.msg147619#msg147619 date=1321494530]
    Also imikhail, why are you always so grumpy on the forum?

    I've noticed that with... all your posts.


    Thanks for reading ALL my posts.


    See. You're grumpy.
  • andrew8345andrew8345
    [quote author=ashsofennoub link=topic=12575.msg147643#msg147643 date=1321512901]
    [quote author=Andrew link=topic=12575.msg147639#msg147639 date=1321504811]
    [quote author=ashsofennoub link=topic=12575.msg147624#msg147624 date=1321497236]
    I may have misunderstood. I disagree entirely with the idea of instruments with liturgical hymns. Forgive me.
    My intention was to justify the use of instruments with praises and spiritual songs outside of liturgical functions.
    AshSofEnooub


    Why do you disagree completely?


    While I have an opinion, it's just that; an opinion.
    "The limited use of instruments enhances the spiritual experience; while excessive use detracts from it, especially when it discourages or distracts the congregation's participation." - Bishop Youssef (http://www.suscopts.org/q&a/index.php?qid=331&catid=267)
    The liturgy is one of the most traditional rites in the Orthodox Church. To change it by adding instruments is to take away its Orthodoxy.

    "David formerly sang songs, also today we sing hymns. He had a lyre with lifeless strings, the church has a lyre with living strings. Our tongues are the strings of the lyre with a different tone indeed but much more in accordance with piety. Here there is no need for the cithara, or for stretched strings, or for the plectrum, or for art, or for any instrument; but, if you like, you may yourself become a cithara, mortifying the members of the flesh and making a full harmony of mind and body. For when the flesh no longer lusts against the Spirit, but has submitted to its orders and has been led at length into the best and most admirable path, then will you create a spiritual melody."
    St. John Chrysostom

    "Of old at the time those of the circumcision were worshipping with symbols and types it was not inappropriate to send up hymns to God with the psalterion and cithara and to do this on Sabbath days... We render our hymn with a living psalterion and a living cithara with spiritual songs. The unison voices of Christians would be more acceptable to God than any musical instrument. Accordingly in all the churches of God, united in soul and attitude, with one mind and in agreement of faith and piety we send up a unison melody in the words of the Psalms."
    St. Eusebius

    According to St. John Chrysostom and St. Eusebius, our voices are the instruments we use in church, as our voices unite us and render us living strings to create a spiritual melody, rather than an emotional melody. The hymns of the liturgy were not intended to excite emotion, but rather to move the soul.
    When you take these hymns outside of the church, they are still hymns, meant to move the soul. If you read the gospel outside of church, does it not have the same meaning and the same purpose?
    The purpose of the hymns is to create a melody of the spirit, not necessarily pleasing to the ear, and to move the soul. To put excessive instruments to these hymns, according to the Fathers, is not necessary, for the acceptable offering is our voices.
    Again, most of that last part there is opinion, so please correct me if I am mistaken.

    AshSofEnnoub



    Interesting points. So, there is something special and unique about the liturgical hymns, as compared to spiritual songs, that make them unfit for accompaniment of instruments?
  • ashsofennoub
    That is my opinion. I think liturgical hymns have a "sacredness" associated with them that entitles them to simply be the work of voices, while spiritual praises are not as ritual (as in, having to do with the rites of the church), and so is allowed to be accompanied by instruments. My rhetoric isn't the greatest but I believe you follow. Again, correct me if I'm wrong.

    AshSofEnnoub
  • HolmesHolmes
    + Irini nem ehmot,

    [quote author=Andrew link=topic=12575.msg147638#msg147638 date=1321503792]
    If lame for the non-liturgical setting, do you also think it is lame for the liturgical one?


    No. Apples and oranges.
  • andrew8345andrew8345
    [quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=12575.msg147673#msg147673 date=1321589224]
    + Irini nem ehmot,

    [quote author=Andrew link=topic=12575.msg147638#msg147638 date=1321503792]
    If lame for the non-liturgical setting, do you also think it is lame for the liturgical one?


    No. Apples and oranges.


    I guess I can agree to a certain extent. .
  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=12575.msg147588#msg147588 date=1321466946]
    No musical instruments should be played during liturgical prayers.


    I think we had a discussion about this issue ages ago. I raised it.

    Fr. Peter Farrington explained the reason why. Its not a novelty or a backwardness in us that we do not use musical instruments - please check the thread. I found it quite informative, and I learnt a lot from it as I did think for a moment that its a bit odd we don't have musical accompaniments.

    But as you say, we are allowed the Oud, but not in the liturgy.

    Orthodoxy is a very interesting subject.. its not just about creed, but its an expression of faith and how we worship also.
  • andrew8345andrew8345
    [quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=12575.msg147693#msg147693 date=1321646834]
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=12575.msg147588#msg147588 date=1321466946]
    No musical instruments should be played during liturgical prayers.


    I think we had a discussion about this issue ages ago. I raised it.

    Fr. Peter Farrington explained the reason why. Its not a novelty or a backwardness in us that we do not use musical instruments - please check the thread. I found it quite informative, and I learnt a lot from it as I did think for a moment that its a bit odd we don't have musical accompaniments.

    But as you say, we are allowed the Oud, but not in the liturgy.

    Orthodoxy is a very interesting subject.. its not just about creed, but its an expression of faith and how we worship also.


    May you provide the link to that thread? Thanks.
  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi
    [quote author=Andrew link=topic=12575.msg147712#msg147712 date=1321685161]
    [quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=12575.msg147693#msg147693 date=1321646834]
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=12575.msg147588#msg147588 date=1321466946]
    No musical instruments should be played during liturgical prayers.


    I think we had a discussion about this issue ages ago. I raised it.

    Fr. Peter Farrington explained the reason why. Its not a novelty or a backwardness in us that we do not use musical instruments - please check the thread. I found it quite informative, and I learnt a lot from it as I did think for a moment that its a bit odd we don't have musical accompaniments.

    But as you say, we are allowed the Oud, but not in the liturgy.

    Orthodoxy is a very interesting subject.. its not just about creed, but its an expression of faith and how we worship also.


    May you provide the link to that thread? Thanks.


    Hi Andrew,

    Yes, I'll try and find it. I was of the same opinion as the Original Poster, until Fr. Peter, amongst others, made it clear that its not a backward issue that's in our Church that prevents us form playing musical instruments during the liturgy. Apparently, the idea behind it (if my memory serves me well) is that we pray with our voices, and this what is offered to God.

    I still don't really get what is "SO WRONG" with playing musical instruments anyway - especially as Psalm 150 clearly says "Praise the Lord with Souding Cymbals, with harps and guitars, with the organ and other instruments" - I don't see what is so bad about it???

    Our hymns are indeed so funky that its a bit of a shame - but the point is this: Its not a "backward" or mutakhallef reason behind it. Its something spiritual in it.

    Having said that, check this out:




    TELL ME WHAT U THINK!!

    Isn't that the most beautiful hymn ever?? Especially with the Oud being played. Remarkable.

    Look at the guy's face who's playing the Oud.

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