[quote author=Andrew link=topic=12585.msg147816#msg147816 date=1321854258] That's funny you bring all that stuff up because some people dedicate their whole lives to finding a natural explanation for all the phenomenons in the Bible. . .they're called unbelievers.
If you aren't going to contribute anything constructive, then just don't post. Your stupid commentary is not needed. If you have never put any thought into your faith and have never had doubts, good on you. Not everyone is like you, nor should they be like you. There are people out there that do have genuine doubts and questions. If you cannot be sympathetic and try to help them, then just bugger off.
[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=12585.msg147818#msg147818 date=1321854669] + Irini nem ehmot,
[quote author=Andrew link=topic=12585.msg147816#msg147816 date=1321854258] That's funny you bring all that stuff up because some people dedicate their whole lives to finding a natural explanation for all the phenomenons in the Bible. . .they're called unbelievers.
If you aren't going to contribute anything constructive, then just don't post. Your stupid commentary is not needed. If you have never put any thought into your faith and have never had doubts, good on you. Not everyone is like you, nor should they be like you. There are people out there that do have genuine doubts and questions. If you cannot be sympathetic and try to help them, then just bugger off.
If you had read my previous posts you would have realized I doubted and still doubt. . .everyone does.
I gave him resources and so did several others. What you do not seem to understand, Cephas (as your several posts questioning everything the Church has given us demonstrates) is that doubt is not solved by more questions which lead to more doubt. It is resolved by turning to God and having faith. We cannot sit here and try to answer everything in the Bible that seems iffy. Such as task is impossible and pointless. One needs to realize before it is too late that doubt is a virus that if not quickly destroyed will destroy you.
[quote author=ReturnOrthodoxy link=topic=12585.msg147817#msg147817 date=1321854450] [quote author=Andrew link=topic=12585.msg147816#msg147816 date=1321854258] That's funny you bring all that stuff up because some people dedicate their whole lives to finding a natural explanation for all the phenomenons in the Bible. . .they're called unbelievers.
OK
RO,
I did not mean this to say that you are an unbeliever. But this is what unbelievers do. Seriously - some people try to find explanations for miracles, etc. Thomas Jefferson went to so far as to literally cut out all the miracles because he thought they were nonsense. These are people who like Christianity but want something rationalized in all aspects. Something they can prove in the lab. You will get not get a satisfactory answer to every doubt or question you have. Then what? In the end you simply just have to believe.
We should repeat the words of the father whose son was demon-possessed:
[quote=Mark 9:24]“Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!”
Andrew, I am honestly repeating those words. I remember a former time, where I could be in church, walk out and because of the experience, wonder how anyone could disregard God. I will continue asking God to strengthen my faith, but will he here my plea for faith when I presented while doubting? I am lost, and I do understand the severity of the state I am in. I just need help and prayers getting out. I want to experience God.
[quote author=ReturnOrthodoxy link=topic=12585.msg147815#msg147815 date=1321852461] 3) The demon possessed people: Epileptics?
When He had come to the other side, to the country of the Gergesenes, there met Him two demon-possessed men, coming out of the tombs, exceedingly fierce, so that no one could pass that way. And suddenly they cried out, saying, “What have we to do with You, Jesus, You Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?” Now a good way off from them there was a herd of many swine feeding. So the demons begged Him, saying, “If You cast us out, permit us to go away into the herd of swine.” And He said to them, “Go.” So when they had come out, they went into the herd of swine. And suddenly the whole herd of swine ran violently down the steep place into the sea, and perished in the water. Then those who kept them fled; and they went away into the city and told everything, including what had happened to the demon-possessed men. And behold, the whole city came out to meet Jesus. And when they saw Him, they begged Him to depart from their region. -Matthew 8:28-34
I apologize for only addressing your last question, but it's the only one I really know the answer to.
If these men were simply suffering from epileptic episodes, this does not account for the odd behavior of the swine. The whole city was awestruck by what occurred here. Therefore we can conclude with confidence that what went on here had to do with more than just epilepsy.
[quote author=ReturnOrthodoxy link=topic=12585.msg147823#msg147823 date=1321856228] Andrew, I am honestly repeating those words. I remember a former time, where I could be in church, walk out and because of the experience, wonder how anyone could disregard God. I will continue asking God to strengthen my faith, but will he here my plea for faith when I presented while doubting? I am lost, and I do understand the severity of the state I am in. I just need help and prayers getting out. I want to experience God.
"You hid your face and I was troubled!"
ReturnOrthodoxy
Number one: Speak to your FoC (you know this, of course)
Secondly, God desires not the death of a servant but rather that he returns and lives (agpeya). . .which means He will most definitely hear your plea and send you signs, people, etc. to bring you to Him.
Besides, the fact that you are praying and asking for guidance means that you have faith but are being overwhelmed by the enemy's attack against it. At a certain point you just have to simply believe. This is what faith is and until you have this unwavering belief no matter what you do not have faith. You should find comfort in the fact that when our Lord lifts this burden off your shoulders your belief and confidence in Him will be like a rock.
It sounds circular and it is: One doesn't believe in prayers and I tell them to pray. One is questioning the Bible and I tell them to just believe. One lacks a close relationship with our Lord and I tell them ask Him to make it stronger. . .
It sounds silly but it isn't. . .believe me :)
This is what I love about those simple folks that people like me look at and call stupid. They do not doubt. They don't care for explanations. My parents are very simple and many times they will tell me of miracles that I will think are dumb. But I don't tell them, "Dad, that's impossible bc the 2nd law of thermodynamics says. . ." I admire their belief in God and desire to be like them. Too many times we desire knowledge of God and we never meet Him. We don't know Him but we know of Him. So forgot all the research you are doing and all the books I or others recommended and just pray, chant hymns, cry to the Lord, confess, and He will reveal His many wonders to you.
Those are my two cents. . .take it for what it is.
I don't have anything I can say without being deconstructive! Just that brother/or sister we will pray for you, and the saints are already praying for you. For the world is filled with darkness, lies, pride, greed, and bias (including theory bias). To ever find truth in the world is like searching for any sort of light source in an infinite space of darkness. In addition, almost everything has an uncertainty (Aaha don't believe me take statistics class). The truth is that we don't know the truth, because the truth is Jesus Christ who we are far from: in our hearts, in our minds, and in our souls. The reason why we are far from Him is because we are prudent and wise in our own eyes, and we are too proud to say the simple words of "I don't know" or simply trusting that God knows it. Please pray for me.
In my opinion, it is relatively impossible to find any book like Mere Christianity. I have been reading that, and it is making a lot of sense. It seems like every doubt I had is a simple reflection of how I was not willing to accept the truths of the bible. I really find comfort in this book, and I hope that if anyone has read it along with other writings, you could recommend for me some writings which take on the same method, and which are as well written. Preferably something with patristics, but anything will do.
[quote author=ReturnOrthodoxy link=topic=12585.msg147857#msg147857 date=1321951569] I just have to say,
In my opinion, it is relatively impossible to find any book like Mere Christianity. I have been reading that, and it is making a lot of sense. It seems like every doubt I had is a simple reflection of how I was not willing to accept the truths of the bible. I really find comfort in this book, and I hope that if anyone has read it along with other writings, you could recommend for me some writings which take on the same method, and which are as well written. Preferably something with patristics, but anything will do.
Continue praying for me. I really need it.
ReturnOrthodoxy
I recall that John Lennox once said something really good about the limitations of science. Its problem is that it cannot be used to answer the simplest questions of a child. For example if someone made a cake we can use science to deduce things like the constitution of the icing, the temperature it was cooked at, how fresh it is but it can't give us the answer to this simple question - who made the cake and why?
He also gave a story when he was at dinner with a reductionist and he said to them - look at the menu, the reductionist said yes the Chicken looks nice and he said no no no I mean see the writing on it? The reductionist said yes and John then asked him using your knowledge of physics and chemistry determine the phonetic pronunciation and meaning of the letters on the page.
Another really important thing he mentioned was that most of the people who push evolution as an alternative to creationism are biologists and such. This is important because you don't see the same claims being made by Physicists or even rarer cosmologists because they understand that string theory doesn't offer concrete reasoning for the genesis of the universe.
I believe that CS Lewis also wrote a really good book on miracles, it was written 60 years ago and to this day it hasn't been refuted.
Regarding the book Miracles, C.S. Lewis ad a debate with a woman named G.E.M Anscombe who disagreed with chapter three of the book. He later rewrote it to match her specifications. This can be read about here. Still, it was fixed up by him, so I guess that his rewriting of it is unrefuted. I plan on purchasing that book, however, I would like to make sure that I have the re-written version.
[quote author=ReturnOrthodoxy link=topic=12585.msg147864#msg147864 date=1321983562] Regarding the book Miracles, C.S. Lewis ad a debate with a woman named G.E.M Anscombe who disagreed with chapter three of the book. He later rewrote it to match her specifications. This can be read about here. Still, it was fixed up by him, so I guess that his rewriting of it is unrefuted. I plan on purchasing that book, however, I would like to make sure that I have the re-written version.
ReturnOrthodoxy
I think that this is the only version available now, if it makes you feel better, she is a Christian not an Atheist. The book hasn't be successfully challenged by an reductive rationalists.
Comments
[quote author=Andrew link=topic=12585.msg147816#msg147816 date=1321854258]
That's funny you bring all that stuff up because some people dedicate their whole lives to finding a natural explanation for all the phenomenons in the Bible. . .they're called unbelievers.
If you aren't going to contribute anything constructive, then just don't post. Your stupid commentary is not needed. If you have never put any thought into your faith and have never had doubts, good on you. Not everyone is like you, nor should they be like you. There are people out there that do have genuine doubts and questions. If you cannot be sympathetic and try to help them, then just bugger off.
+ Irini nem ehmot,
[quote author=Andrew link=topic=12585.msg147816#msg147816 date=1321854258]
That's funny you bring all that stuff up because some people dedicate their whole lives to finding a natural explanation for all the phenomenons in the Bible. . .they're called unbelievers.
If you aren't going to contribute anything constructive, then just don't post. Your stupid commentary is not needed. If you have never put any thought into your faith and have never had doubts, good on you. Not everyone is like you, nor should they be like you. There are people out there that do have genuine doubts and questions. If you cannot be sympathetic and try to help them, then just bugger off.
If you had read my previous posts you would have realized I doubted and still doubt. . .everyone does.
I gave him resources and so did several others. What you do not seem to understand, Cephas (as your several posts questioning everything the Church has given us demonstrates) is that doubt is not solved by more questions which lead to more doubt. It is resolved by turning to God and having faith. We cannot sit here and try to answer everything in the Bible that seems iffy. Such as task is impossible and pointless. One needs to realize before it is too late that doubt is a virus that if not quickly destroyed will destroy you.
[quote author=Andrew link=topic=12585.msg147816#msg147816 date=1321854258]
That's funny you bring all that stuff up because some people dedicate their whole lives to finding a natural explanation for all the phenomenons in the Bible. . .they're called unbelievers.
OK
RO,
I did not mean this to say that you are an unbeliever. But this is what unbelievers do. Seriously - some people try to find explanations for miracles, etc. Thomas Jefferson went to so far as to literally cut out all the miracles because he thought they were nonsense. These are people who like Christianity but want something rationalized in all aspects. Something they can prove in the lab. You will get not get a satisfactory answer to every doubt or question you have. Then what? In the end you simply just have to believe.
We should repeat the words of the father whose son was demon-possessed:
[quote=Mark 9:24]“Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!”
I am honestly repeating those words. I remember a former time, where I could be in church, walk out and because of the experience, wonder how anyone could disregard God. I will continue asking God to strengthen my faith, but will he here my plea for faith when I presented while doubting? I am lost, and I do understand the severity of the state I am in. I just need help and prayers getting out. I want to experience God.
"You hid your face and I was troubled!"
ReturnOrthodoxy
3) The demon possessed people: Epileptics?
When He had come to the other side, to the country of the Gergesenes, there met Him two demon-possessed men, coming out of the tombs, exceedingly fierce, so that no one could pass that way. And suddenly they cried out, saying, “What have we to do with You, Jesus, You Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?”
Now a good way off from them there was a herd of many swine feeding. So the demons begged Him, saying, “If You cast us out, permit us to go away into the herd of swine.” And He said to them, “Go.” So when they had come out, they went into the herd of swine. And suddenly the whole herd of swine ran violently down the steep place into the sea, and perished in the water.
Then those who kept them fled; and they went away into the city and told everything, including what had happened to the demon-possessed men. And behold, the whole city came out to meet Jesus. And when they saw Him, they begged Him to depart from their region. -Matthew 8:28-34
I apologize for only addressing your last question, but it's the only one I really know the answer to.
If these men were simply suffering from epileptic episodes, this does not account for the odd behavior of the swine. The whole city was awestruck by what occurred here. Therefore we can conclude with confidence that what went on here had to do with more than just epilepsy.
Andrew,
I am honestly repeating those words. I remember a former time, where I could be in church, walk out and because of the experience, wonder how anyone could disregard God. I will continue asking God to strengthen my faith, but will he here my plea for faith when I presented while doubting? I am lost, and I do understand the severity of the state I am in. I just need help and prayers getting out. I want to experience God.
"You hid your face and I was troubled!"
ReturnOrthodoxy
Number one: Speak to your FoC (you know this, of course)
Secondly, God desires not the death of a servant but rather that he returns and lives (agpeya). . .which means He will most definitely hear your plea and send you signs, people, etc. to bring you to Him.
Besides, the fact that you are praying and asking for guidance means that you have faith but are being overwhelmed by the enemy's attack against it. At a certain point you just have to simply believe. This is what faith is and until you have this unwavering belief no matter what you do not have faith. You should find comfort in the fact that when our Lord lifts this burden off your shoulders your belief and confidence in Him will be like a rock.
It sounds circular and it is: One doesn't believe in prayers and I tell them to pray. One is questioning the Bible and I tell them to just believe. One lacks a close relationship with our Lord and I tell them ask Him to make it stronger. . .
It sounds silly but it isn't. . .believe me :)
This is what I love about those simple folks that people like me look at and call stupid. They do not doubt. They don't care for explanations. My parents are very simple and many times they will tell me of miracles that I will think are dumb. But I don't tell them, "Dad, that's impossible bc the 2nd law of thermodynamics says. . ." I admire their belief in God and desire to be like them. Too many times we desire knowledge of God and we never meet Him. We don't know Him but we know of Him. So forgot all the research you are doing and all the books I or others recommended and just pray, chant hymns, cry to the Lord, confess, and He will reveal His many wonders to you.
Those are my two cents. . .take it for what it is.
In my opinion, it is relatively impossible to find any book like Mere Christianity. I have been reading that, and it is making a lot of sense. It seems like every doubt I had is a simple reflection of how I was not willing to accept the truths of the bible. I really find comfort in this book, and I hope that if anyone has read it along with other writings, you could recommend for me some writings which take on the same method, and which are as well written. Preferably something with patristics, but anything will do.
Continue praying for me. I really need it.
ReturnOrthodoxy
I just have to say,
In my opinion, it is relatively impossible to find any book like Mere Christianity. I have been reading that, and it is making a lot of sense. It seems like every doubt I had is a simple reflection of how I was not willing to accept the truths of the bible. I really find comfort in this book, and I hope that if anyone has read it along with other writings, you could recommend for me some writings which take on the same method, and which are as well written. Preferably something with patristics, but anything will do.
Continue praying for me. I really need it.
ReturnOrthodoxy
I recall that John Lennox once said something really good about the limitations of science. Its problem is that it cannot be used to answer the simplest questions of a child. For example if someone made a cake we can use science to deduce things like the constitution of the icing, the temperature it was cooked at, how fresh it is but it can't give us the answer to this simple question - who made the cake and why?
He also gave a story when he was at dinner with a reductionist and he said to them - look at the menu, the reductionist said yes the Chicken looks nice and he said no no no I mean see the writing on it? The reductionist said yes and John then asked him using your knowledge of physics and chemistry determine the phonetic pronunciation and meaning of the letters on the page.
Another really important thing he mentioned was that most of the people who push evolution as an alternative to creationism are biologists and such. This is important because you don't see the same claims being made by Physicists or even rarer cosmologists because they understand that string theory doesn't offer concrete reasoning for the genesis of the universe.
I believe that CS Lewis also wrote a really good book on miracles, it was written 60 years ago and to this day it hasn't been refuted.
ReturnOrthodoxy
Regarding the book Miracles, C.S. Lewis ad a debate with a woman named G.E.M Anscombe who disagreed with chapter three of the book. He later rewrote it to match her specifications. This can be read about here. Still, it was fixed up by him, so I guess that his rewriting of it is unrefuted. I plan on purchasing that book, however, I would like to make sure that I have the re-written version.
ReturnOrthodoxy
I think that this is the only version available now, if it makes you feel better, she is a Christian not an Atheist. The book hasn't be successfully challenged by an reductive rationalists.