Are there different degrees of sin? For example, is murder worse than lying? And if so, are there varying punishments for these sins or is everyone who sins and does not repent going to the same hell?
There are different consequences of sins....what comes out of a sin changes many things in the future. We cannot change the results of a mistake but always are welcomed to repent.
There is absolutely differences and degrees of sin, and I think if we look at hell as self imposed (I.e. Creatures cast themselves into hell, not God casting a creature into hell) then it is absolutely fact.
For example; If a rich mans pride has developed to a point where he believes he is the sole source of all his earnings, happiness and success and has come to love his absolute independence from not only the earth around him, but also from God, how on earth can he submit himself to heaven where he now needs to be derivative and completely dependent? The idea of heaven will offend him and this pride will in turn be the cause of him casting himself into hell.
This is significantly different from someone who sins in pride momentarily. For example; A soccer play may think he is the best player after he kicks a goal, but he then quickly realises the reason he was able to kick the goal was because his teammates executed the perfect play to get him the ball. This sin of pride is not nearly as fatal as that of the rich man.
The above example is not perfect because obviously one sin is a lot more "permanent" than the other (and I know we aren't discussing permanency) however I think it does also illustrate that there are definitely degrees in sin, I hope this make sense.
Its kind of like imaginary numbers in math, while there are invariably degrees of torment in hell according to the experience of people in hell in the end its all just degrees of nothingness. C.S.Lewis allegorically wrote in his book the great divorce that hell was a place so tiny and insignificant it can barely be noticed by those who are in heaven. I believe it also the reason why we pray in the Agpeya that we are the chief of sinners as St Paul makes in one of his epistles because ultimately there is no comparison to be made between sinners, the comparisons should be reserved for the faithful servants of the Lord whose deeds merit recollection.
Thanks a lot, but then why does Jesus say sometimes that it is better for Sodom and Gomorrah for these places? Doesn't that imply that they have different punishments? And if they're different punishments, then does every sinner get them all since, as servant33 pointed out, someone who is guilty of one is guilty of all? Sorry it might seem redundant but its hard to get my head around it.
+[quote author=Coptic Soldier link=topic=12595.msg147896#msg147896 date=1322040571] There is absolutely differences and degrees of sin, and I think if we look at hell as self imposed (I.e. Creatures cast themselves into hell, not God casting a creature into hell) then it is absolutely fact.
For example; If a rich mans pride has developed to a point where he believes he is the sole source of all his earnings, happiness and success and has come to love his absolute independence from not only the earth around him, but also from God, how on earth can he submit himself to heaven where he now needs to be derivative and completely dependent? The idea of heaven will offend him and this pride will in turn be the cause of him casting himself into hell.
This is significantly different from someone who sins in pride momentarily. For example; A soccer play may think he is the best player after he kicks a goal, but he then quickly realises the reason he was able to kick the goal was because his teammates executed the perfect play to get him the ball. This sin of pride is not nearly as fatal as that of the rich man.
The above example is not perfect because obviously one sin is a lot more "permanent" than the other (and I know we aren't discussing permanency) however I think it does also illustrate that there are definitely degrees in sin, I hope this make sense.
Are you talking about the sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit?
As for the degrees, H.G. Bishop Youannes wrote a book related to it called: 'Our very short earthly lives draw a precise picture of our very long eternal lives'
Some excerpts:
"The fate of our never-ending eternal life is determined by our deeds throughout this very short earthly life. And just as there are many many levels for the righteous in the eternal Kingdom, there are also many many levels for the wicked in eternal torment."
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt. Those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the firmament, and those who turn many to righteousness like the stars forever and ever. - Daniel 12:2-3
Our Lord clearly asserts that Sodom, in eternal torment, will be in a better state than the city which does not accept the Kingdom of God and the teachings of the Holy Apostles, and that Tyre and Sidon will be in a better state than the cities of Chorazin and Bethsaida, which did not repent despite the many works that were done in them. Therefore, my beloved, we know that there will be many levels for the wicked in eternal torment.
It suffices to meditate on the saying of the Lord, that "For every idle word man should speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgement." (Matthew 12:36), implying that even a single idle word will set one evil man on a different level from the other, in the Day of Judgement.
And I imagine my dear beloved, that there are many gates alongside these paths, linking between this vain world and the never-ending eternal life... And everyday, death seizes thousands. And when every man's short earthly life comes to an end, he will exit the path on which he was travelling, at the gate he had reached. If he had reached the pinnacle, or at the end of that path, he will exit this temporal world from gate number 1, and his rank in the eternal Kingdom (or torment) will be the first. And if he was just short of reaching the end of the path, he will exit this temporal world from gate number two, and his rank will be second. etc... etc...
One day the Venerable Macarius of Egypt was walking about the desert and found a dried-out human skull lying on the ground. Turning it over with his staff, the saint heard a sound, as though from a distance. Then Macarius asked the skull: "What manner of man were you?"
"I was the chief of the pagan priests that dwelt in this place," it replied. "When you, O Abba Macarius, who are full of the Spirit of God, pray for us, taking pity on us that are in the torments of hell, we then receive a certain relief."
"And what manner of relief do you receive?" asked Macarius. "And tell me, what torments are you subjected to?"
"As far as heaven is above the earth," replied the skull with a groan, "so great is the fire in the midst of which we find ourselves, wrapped in flame from head to toe. At this time we cannot see each others' faces, but when you prayest for us, we can see each other a little, and this affords us some consolation."
On hearing this reply, the venerable one wept and said: "Cursed is that day when man broke the divine ordinance!" And once again he asked the skull: "Are there any other tortures worse than yours?"
"Beneath us, much farther down, there are many others," it replied.
"And who are found in such unbearable torments?" asked Macarius.
"We who did not know God, yet experience the mercy of God a little," answered the skull. "But they that knew the name of God, yet rejected Him and did not keep His commandments, undergo much heavier and worse torments below."
After this St. Macarius took the skull, buried it in the ground and departed.
It is the clear teaching of scripture and tradition that there will degrees of sin and torment but at the same time scripture only places emphasis from this question from the perspective of encouraging us who have received the message as per the story above to act on the teaching we've been given lest we suffer this miserable fate.
This is backed up by a story I heard about a young Coptic youth in Egypt. He used to be visited by a Sunday school teacher who always visited him and asked him to come to church. He did this many many times until one day he was at the door of the Church and the Sunday School teacher asked him to come in and he said he would think about it before turning back onto the road where he was hit by a car and he died. The Sunday school teacher was horrified and he prayed for some time to know what the fate of his soul was. He then received a vision where he saw him horribly tormented and he spoke to him and asked him what had happened, the boy said that he was in torment for all things he had done and that every word which the Sunday school teacher had said to remind him to come to Church had become fire that seared his flesh when he remembered them.
However I want to take the unusual step of querying the question - is it important to know if there are degrees of sin? The reason I ask this question is because tradition has a far more important thing to say about sin - to us whether or not it comes in degrees is for all intents and purposes not an important question to ask. The desert fathers were famous for being asked one question and then answering with something unrelated - why? - because in their experience they knew what the person should be asking and they preferred to answer with that instead.
As far as sin is concerned the Bible is quite explicit that on the subject of the comparison of sins or sinners none should be made; the question is one of who receives blessedness and who doesn't. There are many examples and verses which demonstrate that this is what scripture wants us to be thinking when we ask these questions.
Christ in the sermon on the mount went as far as saying that if we so much as look at a woman with sinful desire we commit adultery and many other such hard instructions to obey but over the question of sin he took the smallest sin possible when someone used the insult 'raca' or 'fool' and said if we say this to our neighbour then we are in danger of going to gehenna. Scripture also says that we will be held to account for our idle words or small talk that we make with people we bump into.
The apostles in their writing elaborate on this by saying if we're guilty of one breaking one law then we're guilty of breaking all laws in the epistle of St James because the law is not something which we can be selective about, either we're following it or we're not. I also previously cited the example from St Paul and the Agpeya where we say that individually we're the chief of sinners because there should no comparisons between people who sin all that is needed is to do one thing - repent!
The last biblical example and one of the most important is in the book of revelation:
[quote=Revelation 17:1-8]One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the punishment of the great prostitute, who sits by many waters. With her the kings of the earth committed adultery, and the inhabitants of the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries.” Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns. The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries. The name written on her forehead was a mystery:
BABYLON THE GREAT
THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES
AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of God’s holy people, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.
When I saw her, I was greatly astonished. Then the angel said to me: “Why are you astonished? I will explain to you the mystery of the woman and of the beast she rides, which has the seven heads and ten horns. The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come.
St John was amazed that someone could be arrayed so gloriously and then be capable of doing such evil at the same time. The response of the angel who was not astonished knew that when creation is disconnected from God any degree of evil which they perform is normal and the result of their deeds is predictable - it is destruction. In other words a spiritual person knows that creatures disconnected from God will do evil - because they know that good comes from God alone.
I believe that this understanding of the Angel is the most important thing to know concerning sin whether it be great or small.
Comments
here's the Bible verse:
"For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it." James 2:10 (NIV)
For example; If a rich mans pride has developed to a point where he believes he is the sole source of all his earnings, happiness and success and has come to love his absolute independence from not only the earth around him, but also from God, how on earth can he submit himself to heaven where he now needs to be derivative and completely dependent? The idea of heaven will offend him and this pride will in turn be the cause of him casting himself into hell.
This is significantly different from someone who sins in pride momentarily. For example; A soccer play may think he is the best player after he kicks a goal, but he then quickly realises the reason he was able to kick the goal was because his teammates executed the perfect play to get him the ball. This sin of pride is not nearly as fatal as that of the rich man.
The above example is not perfect because obviously one sin is a lot more "permanent" than the other (and I know we aren't discussing permanency) however I think it does also illustrate that there are definitely degrees in sin, I hope this make sense.
Please pray for me,
LiD
Sorry it might seem redundant but its hard to get my head around it.
There is absolutely differences and degrees of sin, and I think if we look at hell as self imposed (I.e. Creatures cast themselves into hell, not God casting a creature into hell) then it is absolutely fact.
For example; If a rich mans pride has developed to a point where he believes he is the sole source of all his earnings, happiness and success and has come to love his absolute independence from not only the earth around him, but also from God, how on earth can he submit himself to heaven where he now needs to be derivative and completely dependent? The idea of heaven will offend him and this pride will in turn be the cause of him casting himself into hell.
This is significantly different from someone who sins in pride momentarily. For example; A soccer play may think he is the best player after he kicks a goal, but he then quickly realises the reason he was able to kick the goal was because his teammates executed the perfect play to get him the ball. This sin of pride is not nearly as fatal as that of the rich man.
The above example is not perfect because obviously one sin is a lot more "permanent" than the other (and I know we aren't discussing permanency) however I think it does also illustrate that there are definitely degrees in sin, I hope this make sense.
Are you talking about the sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit?
As for the degrees, H.G. Bishop Youannes wrote a book related to it called: 'Our very short earthly lives draw a precise picture of our very long eternal lives'
Some excerpts:
"The fate of our never-ending eternal life is determined by our deeds throughout this very short earthly life. And just as there are many many levels for the righteous in the eternal Kingdom, there are also many many levels for the wicked in eternal torment."
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt. Those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the firmament, and those who turn many to righteousness like the stars forever and ever. - Daniel 12:2-3
Our Lord clearly asserts that Sodom, in eternal torment, will be in a better state than the city which does not accept the Kingdom of God and the teachings of the Holy Apostles, and that Tyre and Sidon will be in a better state than the cities of Chorazin and Bethsaida, which did not repent despite the many works that were done in them. Therefore, my beloved, we know that there will be many levels for the wicked in eternal torment.
It suffices to meditate on the saying of the Lord, that "For every idle word man should speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgement." (Matthew 12:36), implying that even a single idle word will set one evil man on a different level from the other, in the Day of Judgement.
And I imagine my dear beloved, that there are many gates alongside these paths, linking between this vain world and the never-ending eternal life... And everyday, death seizes thousands. And when every man's short earthly life comes to an end, he will exit the path on which he was travelling, at the gate he had reached. If he had reached the pinnacle, or at the end of that path, he will exit this temporal world from gate number 1, and his rank in the eternal Kingdom (or torment) will be the first. And if he was just short of reaching the end of the path, he will exit this temporal world from gate number two, and his rank will be second. etc... etc...
This is backed up by a story I heard about a young Coptic youth in Egypt. He used to be visited by a Sunday school teacher who always visited him and asked him to come to church. He did this many many times until one day he was at the door of the Church and the Sunday School teacher asked him to come in and he said he would think about it before turning back onto the road where he was hit by a car and he died. The Sunday school teacher was horrified and he prayed for some time to know what the fate of his soul was. He then received a vision where he saw him horribly tormented and he spoke to him and asked him what had happened, the boy said that he was in torment for all things he had done and that every word which the Sunday school teacher had said to remind him to come to Church had become fire that seared his flesh when he remembered them.
However I want to take the unusual step of querying the question - is it important to know if there are degrees of sin? The reason I ask this question is because tradition has a far more important thing to say about sin - to us whether or not it comes in degrees is for all intents and purposes not an important question to ask. The desert fathers were famous for being asked one question and then answering with something unrelated - why? - because in their experience they knew what the person should be asking and they preferred to answer with that instead.
As far as sin is concerned the Bible is quite explicit that on the subject of the comparison of sins or sinners none should be made; the question is one of who receives blessedness and who doesn't. There are many examples and verses which demonstrate that this is what scripture wants us to be thinking when we ask these questions.
Christ in the sermon on the mount went as far as saying that if we so much as look at a woman with sinful desire we commit adultery and many other such hard instructions to obey but over the question of sin he took the smallest sin possible when someone used the insult 'raca' or 'fool' and said if we say this to our neighbour then we are in danger of going to gehenna. Scripture also says that we will be held to account for our idle words or small talk that we make with people we bump into.
The apostles in their writing elaborate on this by saying if we're guilty of one breaking one law then we're guilty of breaking all laws in the epistle of St James because the law is not something which we can be selective about, either we're following it or we're not. I also previously cited the example from St Paul and the Agpeya where we say that individually we're the chief of sinners because there should no comparisons between people who sin all that is needed is to do one thing - repent!
The last biblical example and one of the most important is in the book of revelation:
[quote=Revelation 17:1-8]One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the punishment of the great prostitute, who sits by many waters. With her the kings of the earth committed adultery, and the inhabitants of the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries.”
Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns. The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries. The name written on her forehead was a mystery:
BABYLON THE GREAT
THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES
AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of God’s holy people, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.
When I saw her, I was greatly astonished. Then the angel said to me: “Why are you astonished? I will explain to you the mystery of the woman and of the beast she rides, which has the seven heads and ten horns. The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come.
St John was amazed that someone could be arrayed so gloriously and then be capable of doing such evil at the same time. The response of the angel who was not astonished knew that when creation is disconnected from God any degree of evil which they perform is normal and the result of their deeds is predictable - it is destruction. In other words a spiritual person knows that creatures disconnected from God will do evil - because they know that good comes from God alone.
I believe that this understanding of the Angel is the most important thing to know concerning sin whether it be great or small.