What are you denying? She shouldn't repent? The problem is not without, but within, and so, the answer is to repent and speak to your FOC. I have no care for making someone comfortable in their sin. What is the problem with people being told to repent. Jesus said it to the Pharisees. so did John the baptist. If to repent scares you off, then there is a bigger problem. I don't care about making someone comfortable, but mores about doing the right thing. She has a problem, and thebsolution IS repentance. Not comfort. Whatever the answer is, I don't you are convinced with my method. I couldn't care any less. The point s that she gets her problem fixed. Am I still writing?
I'm sorry for the bad feeling, please place this on my account I should have been wiser in my post. I will reply later but in the meantime I do hope that there won't be any more bad feeling.
I agree ReturnOrthodoxy. She should repent. There is a wider problem here and the title of her thread states that. As far as I'm concerned, it is the humble who make good listeners, not the proud. I do wonder who is listening to her? The repentance does help with her relationship with God. The church is the bride of Christ and so she been the best she could be? I see this as healthy discussion as I think there may be a weakness in this and it's not just her.
I pray that we all follow Jesus Christ's example of being a good listener.
What more is there to understand. She is a 14 ear old girl, who claims that she is above all else, claims that her mother is also in this judgment game with her, claims her father of confession is inactive, and wont have anything of the truth. Someone in this position, if given some ind of encouragement, will twist that encouragement, and make it into an excuse for her actions. You mentioned Jesus with the Samaritan Woman. Jesus took the time to get to know her? He asked her for a drink, told her he had living water, and then exposed her sin. In fact, the way I see it, Jesus didn't waste any time making the woman more comfortable. Also, the Samaritan woman came to Jesus broken hearted. Living in sin was her way, but she had been broken down by people that if given a way out of her sin she would take it. The Samaritan woman was conscious of her sin. <+ChristianGirl+> was not confident of her sin, but rather, of everybody else's sin in her church. What you mean to tell me is that the way to help the all people is the way that Jesus dealt with the Samaritan woman, but never like the pharisees which he often exposed and rebuked harshly. Before you mention that I need to be conscious of my sin, I promise you that I see my sins everywhere I go. I would rebuke myself, but the reality is, <+ChristianGirl+> started this thread in search for an answer, not my answer.
How is it no good to say "go to your father in confession?" Do you want us to tell this girl over a forum? Shouldn't her priest deal with this problem, her having exposed the problem to him? Or should we make ourselves out to be clergy with the greatest directions. LID, we cant even get through a forum without an argument, are we really going to direct an impressionable 14 year old?
You mentioned that we need to be prudent to know if a harsh word or a soft word is required. Well, Personally, I felt that a harsh word would break her down to a level where she will listen to other people, and be so broken down that she will go to he FOC.
I do not what-so-ever regret what I said. I know the effect I had, and I stand by it, not out of pride, but out of faith in what St. Jude says, "some save by fire." (Jude 1:23) Only tose wo acknowledge their sin can be saved by only love, others who see themselves as perfect when all around them are sinners, and they scoff at their sin, they must be saved by fire as the Lord tried to do with the pharisees.
And the way that <+ChristianGirl+> responded to the nice words of Joshuaa, and seemed to take comfort in them only makes me more worried. <+ChristianGirl+>, I hope that you know that what you are doing is wrong no matter how it is being said. Don't take comfort in the nice tone of someone, and completely forget the lesson in it which is, repent. If you don't like the way I said it and prefer Joshuaa's method, that is fine, but i believe our message is one and the same, being, repent of your sin, and open your eyes.
ReturnOrthodoxy
If all u do is be rude, DON'T POST IN MY FORUM! And DON'T INSULT MY MOTHER!
[quote author=LoveisDivine link=topic=12554.msg147445#msg147445 date=1321172447] Hi Guys,
Andrew/ReturnOrthodoxy - maybe you should be the ones to show this thread to your confession father?
My priest is an old man; I really wouldn't want to trouble him with reading all of this. Maybe you could just point out what is wrong with each of my posts.
When Christ met people he took the time to understand them so that he could help them in a real and pragmatic way. Like the samaritan woman, he could have began the discussion with a rebuke for having 5 husbands, and while mentioning never criticised her because He knew what SHE could bear when being correct and what SHE couldn't and because he spoke to her in a loving gentle and merciful way, she was saved. People need love to be saved not reminded of their sins.
Thank you for the Bible lesson. You have to keep in mind that interacting with people over a forum is much different than face-to-face. I really had no idea if this was a joke or not - it hardly made any sense. In hindsight I should've restrained myself.
We must start by remembering that each and everyone one of us lives in disobedience because the devil beguiles us to see division where it doesn't exist and lovingly encourage her to see she might be misinterpreting the situation. Its not enough to use your own experience and to assume what would work for you will work with her.
If she is saying these things it is no good to say - go to your confession father. How on earth is she supposed to take that advice? You could start by saying something like - are you sure Abouna is like that? Maybe you've got the wrong idea? Why don't you give him a second chance? Maybe you're a bit upset and have the wrong idea? We must encourage one another and help people who are lost to see that the devil loves to keep us from repentance by saying things like Abouna is jealous or angry.
I am not going to go back and forth with someone online about their FoC.
And for yourselves, when you do post in a forum, don't we also have the devil on our shoulder saying to us things which can make a problem permanent? Saying the right thing in the wrong way is another way the devil can use us to keep people from Christ. We need to listen and be prudent so we know if a harsh word or a soft word is required, in this case I believe what you've said is not a measured response to this situation.
What more is there to understand. She is a 14 ear old girl, who claims that she is above all else, claims that her mother is also in this judgment game with her, claims her father of confession is inactive, and wont have anything of the truth. Someone in this position, if given some ind of encouragement, will twist that encouragement, and make it into an excuse for her actions. You mentioned Jesus with the Samaritan Woman. Jesus took the time to get to know her? He asked her for a drink, told her he had living water, and then exposed her sin. In fact, the way I see it, Jesus didn't waste any time making the woman more comfortable. Also, the Samaritan woman came to Jesus broken hearted. Living in sin was her way, but she had been broken down by people that if given a way out of her sin she would take it. The Samaritan woman was conscious of her sin. <+ChristianGirl+> was not confident of her sin, but rather, of everybody else's sin in her church. What you mean to tell me is that the way to help the all people is the way that Jesus dealt with the Samaritan woman, but never like the pharisees which he often exposed and rebuked harshly. Before you mention that I need to be conscious of my sin, I promise you that I see my sins everywhere I go. I would rebuke myself, but the reality is, <+ChristianGirl+> started this thread in search for an answer, not my answer.
How is it no good to say "go to your father in confession?" Do you want us to tell this girl over a forum? Shouldn't her priest deal with this problem, her having exposed the problem to him? Or should we make ourselves out to be clergy with the greatest directions. LID, we cant even get through a forum without an argument, are we really going to direct an impressionable 14 year old?
You mentioned that we need to be prudent to know if a harsh word or a soft word is required. Well, Personally, I felt that a harsh word would break her down to a level where she will listen to other people, and be so broken down that she will go to he FOC.
I do not what-so-ever regret what I said. I know the effect I had, and I stand by it, not out of pride, but out of faith in what St. Jude says, "some save by fire." (Jude 1:23) Only tose wo acknowledge their sin can be saved by only love, others who see themselves as perfect when all around them are sinners, and they scoff at their sin, they must be saved by fire as the Lord tried to do with the pharisees.
And the way that <+ChristianGirl+> responded to the nice words of Joshuaa, and seemed to take comfort in them only makes me more worried. <+ChristianGirl+>, I hope that you know that what you are doing is wrong no matter how it is being said. Don't take comfort in the nice tone of someone, and completely forget the lesson in it which is, repent. If you don't like the way I said it and prefer Joshuaa's method, that is fine, but i believe our message is one and the same, being, repent of your sin, and open your eyes.
I did not insult your mother. You inferred it. I said that you claim that your mother is involved. I didn't judge nor insult her, but I said that to demonstrate the fact you made a judgment about why your mom goes to church. I don't know your mom. In fact, if anyone insulted your mom, it was you who said that she only goes to church to get a good laugh. I did not insult her, I only restated what you had said in your first post. You posted a forum, I responded. You don't like my answer, then there is not much I can do but apologize. If speaking what I believe is right is considered rude, then I am moral-less. I still won't retract my comment. If you are offended by what I said, I am sorry that you understood it wrong. I should have been more understanding of your age, and the fact that you may understand me incorrectly. Forgive me for that. I have no bad feelings, and I hope that regardless of how the posters feel about me, that does not take from the message I am giving.
<+Christiangirl+>, I hope that even though you probably hate me now, that you do the right thing, and try to make the situation better. I am tired of defending what I said. I have no hard feelings. Please just (don't hate me for this) go to your Father in Confession, and explain how you feel. Tell him you are upset with him. He is not going to scold you or yell at you. That is the best advice I can give.
Joshuaa, I couldn't agree more with your post. I should be more.
To all, forgive my pride, I meant well, and pray for me to learn humility.
"Do you find it an oppressive burden to denounce those who commit these sins? It is an oppressive burden to remain silent. For this silence makes you an enemy to God and brings destruction both to you who conceal such sinners and to those whose sins go unrevealed. How much better it is to become hateful to our fellow servants for saving them to provoke God's anger against yourselves. Even if your fellow servant be vexed with you now, he will not be able to harm you but will be grateful later on for his cure. But if you seek to win your fellow servant's favor, if you remain silent and hurt him by concealing his sin, God will exact from you the ultimate penalty."
[quote author=Christs' servant link=topic=12554.msg147481#msg147481 date=1321255827] "Do you find it an oppressive burden to denounce those who commit these sins? It is an oppressive burden to remain silent. For this silence makes you an enemy to God and brings destruction both to you who conceal such sinners and to those whose sins go unrevealed. How much better it is to become hateful to our fellow servants for saving them to provoke God's anger against yourselves. Even if your fellow servant be vexed with you now, he will not be able to harm you but will be grateful later on for his cure. But if you seek to win your fellow servant's favor, if you remain silent and hurt him by concealing his sin, God will exact from you the ultimate penalty."
+St. John Chrysostom+
As much as I adore appeals to the fathers this is out of context - St John wrote it against people who have led apostasy away from Christ to return to Judaic practices. This cannot be applied to this situation, no one here had led any rebellion away from the faith.
It comes from his writing against Judaising Christians:
When we quote fathers we must be careful to check the context to make sure the quote is relevant and we're not using the father to say something they didn't intend.
Forgive me for quoting St. John out of context. But even though he gives these homilies in the light of fellow brethren who turned away from Christ, can't it still be applied to us to a certain extent? Or should we only exhort each other only when one has denounced the Truth or fallen into some heresy (God forbid). Aren't we also also in a certain sense turning away from God- on account of our imperfection (even though we haven't denied the true faith).
Am not saying that whenever we see someone sinning and deviating from God we should rebuke them, the Fathers even say that it is better to conceal our brothers' sins and pray for them in humility and simplicity. But surely there are a times when we ought speak up, with discernment and love.
I personally would rather someone rebuked me here on earth for some error, and save me from eternal damnation and rebuke later on- even though, in my pride, i might dislike the person at first.
[quote author=Christs' servant link=topic=12554.msg147485#msg147485 date=1321262844] Forgive me for quoting St. John out of context. But even though he gives these homilies in the light of fellow brethren who turned away from Christ, can't it still be applied to us to a certain extent? Or should we only exhort each other only when one has denounced the Truth or fallen into some heresy (God forbid). Aren't we also also in a certain sense turning away from God- on account of our imperfection (even though we haven't denied the true faith).
Am not saying that whenever we see someone sinning and deviating from God we should rebuke them, the Fathers even say that it is better to conceal our brothers' sins and pray for them in humility and simplicity. But surely there are a times when we ought speak up, with discernment and love.
I personally would rather someone rebuked me here on earth for some error, and save me from eternal damnation and rebuke later on- even though, in my pride, i might dislike the person at first.
Please correct me if i have wronged in anything.
PFM
Thank you brother for your gentle response and you are very correct we should draw from this passage; the matter of whether or not we should correct one another is up for discussion - it goes without saying we must!!! If we're brothers and sisters we must be honest enough to have each others back and to say what needs to be said when its required. My point is that we must do it as just that - brothers and sisters who love and care for each other - not as random strangers on the internet.
There is a story from the life of St Silouan, when he was a young man he accidentally made pork for his family on a friday and they all ate it. His father was a gentle man and he waited for over 6 months for just the right moment and then told his son that when he ate the pork that day it felt like he was eating death. This is how a loving father speaks to a child and searches for just the right moment to correct them.
St John's severe response was to people who are leading others away from the faith, which makes it a matter of life and death; whether or not the same sternness is required to us for not harshly rebuking a 14 y/o girl who got into a tiff at Church is another matter.
In the case of the latter St John needed to speak to protect his flock in the case of the thread here, the young girl came to a coptic forum for advice and this is how we treated her? She is still posting her so I am assuming she is proud of her faith and wants to be a better Christian, for that reason she deserved better than this from us.
We talk about how difficult this medium is to gauge things and to communicate but I feel we need to make ourselves more accountable; especially when we create division. We're all so big on making others accountable but we don't take the time to put our own hands up and admit when we're the causes of disunity and hurt.
I pray that any distractions that prevent you from glorifing God subside so you will be able to focas on your own weaknesses <+Christiangirl+> Your in a time of life when things are a bit impetuios (careless) and if we are hard or soft on you it is because we want you going in the right direction with us following God.
[quote author=LoveisDivine link=topic=12554.msg147487#msg147487 date=1321278522] [quote author=Christs' servant link=topic=12554.msg147485#msg147485 date=1321262844] Forgive me for quoting St. John out of context. But even though he gives these homilies in the light of fellow brethren who turned away from Christ, can't it still be applied to us to a certain extent? Or should we only exhort each other only when one has denounced the Truth or fallen into some heresy (God forbid). Aren't we also also in a certain sense turning away from God- on account of our imperfection (even though we haven't denied the true faith).
Am not saying that whenever we see someone sinning and deviating from God we should rebuke them, the Fathers even say that it is better to conceal our brothers' sins and pray for them in humility and simplicity. But surely there are a times when we ought speak up, with discernment and love.
I personally would rather someone rebuked me here on earth for some error, and save me from eternal damnation and rebuke later on- even though, in my pride, i might dislike the person at first.
Please correct me if i have wronged in anything.
PFM
Thank you brother for your gentle response and you are very correct we should draw from this passage; the matter of whether or not we should correct one another is up for discussion - it goes without saying we must!!! If we're brothers and sisters we must be honest enough to have each others back and to say what needs to be said when its required. My point is that we must do it as just that - brothers and sisters who love and care for each other - not as random strangers on the internet.
There is a story from the life of St Silouan, when he was a young man he accidentally made pork for his family on a friday and they all ate it. His father was a gentle man and he waited for over 6 months for just the right moment and then told his son that when he ate the pork that day it felt like he was eating death. This is how a loving father speaks to a child and searches for just the right moment to correct them.
St John's severe response was to people who are leading others away from the faith, which makes it a matter of life and death; whether or not the same sternness is required to us for not harshly rebuking a 14 y/o girl who got into a tiff at Church is another matter.
In the case of the latter St John needed to speak to protect his flock in the case of the thread here, the young girl came to a coptic forum for advice and this is how we treated her? She is still posting her so I am assuming she is proud of her faith and wants to be a better Christian, for that reason she deserved better than this from us.
We talk about how difficult this medium is to gauge things and to communicate but I feel we need to make ourselves more accountable; especially when we create division. We're all so big on making others accountable but we don't take the time to put our own hands up and admit when we're the causes of disunity and hurt.
Please pray for me,
LiD
You make some really good points... sorry for misinterpreting your reply.
On a side note, am in awe of the story form St Silouan's life. I can't even remember what i ate last week let alone 6 months ago!!! It just goes to show the extreme sensitivity of their hearts and the rectitude in their lives... May we, with God's help, follow their example.
[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=12554.msg147524#msg147524 date=1321321733] I will repeat: You have got to be kidding.
In the interests of not adding more fuel to a heated discussion and saying thing we might regret, would it be alright if we continued our discussion over PM?
[quote author=LoveisDivine link=topic=12554.msg147525#msg147525 date=1321324263] [quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=12554.msg147524#msg147524 date=1321321733] I will repeat: You have got to be kidding.
In the interests of not adding more fuel to a heated discussion and saying thing we might regret, would it be alright if we continued our discussion over PM?
Please pray for me,
LiD
And in the interest of not talking for the simple reason of proving our own points but giving a good answer to Melissa about what to do about her problem, can we simply summarize what the main answer of this thread is, and forget who did what is right and who did what is wrong? In the end, we are all being children in not wanting to step down and let this girl have benefit. This thread has gone off on a tangent of how to admonish. Let's be humble (not just talk about how it is important to answer with humility) and step away from useless arguments.
Is there anybody out there who can take the inner meaning of what was said in the whole thread about what Melissa should do to get the best of her spirituality? Somebody unbiased please. No comments on anything, but simply a response to the original question posted by Melissa.
Melissa, thank you for your post. We all are looking forward to learning more about you and hearing your comments on the forums. Regarding your initial question, there are a number of concerns we have that suggest the need for a major refocusing of your spiritual mentality. Certain aspects of jealousy, looking down on others, and pride are not fruits of the spirit and suggest there is a lot for you to learn and grow in your spiritual life. Many of us (including myself) have had similar experiences until God somehow changes our hearts and we catch of glimpse of what it truly means to love God and love His church. Many of the posters here have already good comments with ideas like talking to your Abouna, reading the Bible more, and learning church hymns. I encourage you to stay active on the forums so you can learn more from the other members and encourage you to keep this initial post bookmarked so you (as I said previously) can come back in a year or so and understand the issues on your own. It is great that you are only 14, because you can learn more at a young age, (I was 18 when I first heard of tasbeha.org). God bless you and we are looking forward to engaging with you on the forums.
What are your thoughts about your thread <+Christiangirl+>?
My approach is to forgive first, even when seeking repentance. I find it takes more patience with someone and not a harder reaction when wanting repentance. Am I too soft or kidding in taking this attitude? I would desire to be in communion with our Church Fathers on forgiveness.
You asked us to pray for you and I hope my replys have been in this vein.
Forgive me for repeating what some may have said, but for those that are on ChristianGirl's side, saying that ReturnOrthodoxy was rough on her, we need to get real. ReturnOrthodoxy is completely right. Sometimes you have to put feelings aside and stop making excuses.
Your spiritual life should be taken seriously. Being 14 years old in not an excuse for anything. We need to be real. Making excuses for her will allow her to continue in her ways, which leads to more problems when she grows up. This is why some of our churches are so corrupt, is because some people need the "spiritual slipper." Get REAL people. enough making excuse for a girl that clearly looking at people and her church the wrong way.
@ChristianGirl, We all go through these things at this young age, and it's when we become more observant and judgmental of our surroundings. Is your age an excuse to do these things? Absolutely not. We need to learn to have more of a simple eye (which is something all humans need to work on.) which is hopefully something you'll get better as you get older. May God enlighten our eyes, and teach us all to be more humble.
[quote author=servant33 link=topic=12554.msg147531#msg147531 date=1321337055] Well ok, let me know what you think:
Melissa, thank you for your post. We all are looking forward to learning more about you and hearing your comments on the forums. Regarding your initial question, there are a number of concerns we have that suggest the need for a major refocusing of your spiritual mentality. Certain aspects of jealousy, looking down on others, and pride are not fruits of the spirit and suggest there is a lot for you to learn and grow in your spiritual life. Many of us (including myself) have had similar experiences until God somehow changes our hearts and we catch of glimpse of what it truly means to love God and love His church. Many of the posters here have already good comments with ideas like talking to your Abouna, reading the Bible more, and learning church hymns. I encourage you to stay active on the forums so you can learn more from the other members and encourage you to keep this initial post bookmarked so you (as I said previously) can come back in a year or so and understand the issues on your own. It is great that you are only 14, because you can learn more at a young age, (I was 18 when I first heard of tasbeha.org). God bless you and we are looking forward to engaging with you on the forums.
- Tasbeha.org members I learn a lot of hymns only because we are taught in church and also because of tasbeha.org and Youtube
Comments
I don't care about making someone comfortable, but mores about doing the right thing. She has a problem, and thebsolution IS repentance. Not comfort.
Whatever the answer is, I don't you are convinced with my method. I couldn't care any less. The point s that she gets her problem fixed. Am I still writing?
ReturnOrthodoxy
I'm sorry for the bad feeling, please place this on my account I should have been wiser in my post. I will reply later but in the meantime I do hope that there won't be any more bad feeling.
Please pray for me,
LiD
I pray that we all follow Jesus Christ's example of being a good listener.
LID,
What more is there to understand. She is a 14 ear old girl, who claims that she is above all else, claims that her mother is also in this judgment game with her, claims her father of confession is inactive, and wont have anything of the truth. Someone in this position, if given some ind of encouragement, will twist that encouragement, and make it into an excuse for her actions.
You mentioned Jesus with the Samaritan Woman. Jesus took the time to get to know her? He asked her for a drink, told her he had living water, and then exposed her sin. In fact, the way I see it, Jesus didn't waste any time making the woman more comfortable. Also, the Samaritan woman came to Jesus broken hearted. Living in sin was her way, but she had been broken down by people that if given a way out of her sin she would take it. The Samaritan woman was conscious of her sin. <+ChristianGirl+> was not confident of her sin, but rather, of everybody else's sin in her church. What you mean to tell me is that the way to help the all people is the way that Jesus dealt with the Samaritan woman, but never like the pharisees which he often exposed and rebuked harshly.
Before you mention that I need to be conscious of my sin, I promise you that I see my sins everywhere I go. I would rebuke myself, but the reality is, <+ChristianGirl+> started this thread in search for an answer, not my answer.
How is it no good to say "go to your father in confession?" Do you want us to tell this girl over a forum? Shouldn't her priest deal with this problem, her having exposed the problem to him? Or should we make ourselves out to be clergy with the greatest directions. LID, we cant even get through a forum without an argument, are we really going to direct an impressionable 14 year old?
You mentioned that we need to be prudent to know if a harsh word or a soft word is required. Well, Personally, I felt that a harsh word would break her down to a level where she will listen to other people, and be so broken down that she will go to he FOC.
I do not what-so-ever regret what I said. I know the effect I had, and I stand by it, not out of pride, but out of faith in what St. Jude says, "some save by fire." (Jude 1:23) Only tose wo acknowledge their sin can be saved by only love, others who see themselves as perfect when all around them are sinners, and they scoff at their sin, they must be saved by fire as the Lord tried to do with the pharisees.
And the way that <+ChristianGirl+> responded to the nice words of Joshuaa, and seemed to take comfort in them only makes me more worried. <+ChristianGirl+>, I hope that you know that what you are doing is wrong no matter how it is being said. Don't take comfort in the nice tone of someone, and completely forget the lesson in it which is, repent. If you don't like the way I said it and prefer Joshuaa's method, that is fine, but i believe our message is one and the same, being, repent of your sin, and open your eyes.
ReturnOrthodoxy
If all u do is be rude, DON'T POST IN MY FORUM! And DON'T INSULT MY MOTHER!
Hi Guys,
Andrew/ReturnOrthodoxy - maybe you should be the ones to show this thread to your confession father?
My priest is an old man; I really wouldn't want to trouble him with reading all of this. Maybe you could just point out what is wrong with each of my posts. Thank you for the Bible lesson. You have to keep in mind that interacting with people over a forum is much different than face-to-face. I really had no idea if this was a joke or not - it hardly made any sense. In hindsight I should've restrained myself. I am not going to go back and forth with someone online about their FoC. Agreed.
LID,
What more is there to understand. She is a 14 ear old girl, who claims that she is above all else, claims that her mother is also in this judgment game with her, claims her father of confession is inactive, and wont have anything of the truth. Someone in this position, if given some ind of encouragement, will twist that encouragement, and make it into an excuse for her actions.
You mentioned Jesus with the Samaritan Woman. Jesus took the time to get to know her? He asked her for a drink, told her he had living water, and then exposed her sin. In fact, the way I see it, Jesus didn't waste any time making the woman more comfortable. Also, the Samaritan woman came to Jesus broken hearted. Living in sin was her way, but she had been broken down by people that if given a way out of her sin she would take it. The Samaritan woman was conscious of her sin. <+ChristianGirl+> was not confident of her sin, but rather, of everybody else's sin in her church. What you mean to tell me is that the way to help the all people is the way that Jesus dealt with the Samaritan woman, but never like the pharisees which he often exposed and rebuked harshly.
Before you mention that I need to be conscious of my sin, I promise you that I see my sins everywhere I go. I would rebuke myself, but the reality is, <+ChristianGirl+> started this thread in search for an answer, not my answer.
How is it no good to say "go to your father in confession?" Do you want us to tell this girl over a forum? Shouldn't her priest deal with this problem, her having exposed the problem to him? Or should we make ourselves out to be clergy with the greatest directions. LID, we cant even get through a forum without an argument, are we really going to direct an impressionable 14 year old?
You mentioned that we need to be prudent to know if a harsh word or a soft word is required. Well, Personally, I felt that a harsh word would break her down to a level where she will listen to other people, and be so broken down that she will go to he FOC.
I do not what-so-ever regret what I said. I know the effect I had, and I stand by it, not out of pride, but out of faith in what St. Jude says, "some save by fire." (Jude 1:23) Only tose wo acknowledge their sin can be saved by only love, others who see themselves as perfect when all around them are sinners, and they scoff at their sin, they must be saved by fire as the Lord tried to do with the pharisees.
And the way that <+ChristianGirl+> responded to the nice words of Joshuaa, and seemed to take comfort in them only makes me more worried. <+ChristianGirl+>, I hope that you know that what you are doing is wrong no matter how it is being said. Don't take comfort in the nice tone of someone, and completely forget the lesson in it which is, repent. If you don't like the way I said it and prefer Joshuaa's method, that is fine, but i believe our message is one and the same, being, repent of your sin, and open your eyes.
ReturnOrthodoxy
Spot on.
You posted a forum, I responded. You don't like my answer, then there is not much I can do but apologize. If speaking what I believe is right is considered rude, then I am moral-less. I still won't retract my comment. If you are offended by what I said, I am sorry that you understood it wrong. I should have been more understanding of your age, and the fact that you may understand me incorrectly. Forgive me for that.
I have no bad feelings, and I hope that regardless of how the posters feel about me, that does not take from the message I am giving.
<+Christiangirl+>, I hope that even though you probably hate me now, that you do the right thing, and try to make the situation better. I am tired of defending what I said. I have no hard feelings. Please just (don't hate me for this) go to your Father in Confession, and explain how you feel. Tell him you are upset with him. He is not going to scold you or yell at you. That is the best advice I can give.
Joshuaa, I couldn't agree more with your post. I should be more.
To all, forgive my pride, I meant well, and pray for me to learn humility.
ReturnOrthodoxy
+St. John Chrysostom+
"Do you find it an oppressive burden to denounce those who commit these sins? It is an oppressive burden to remain silent. For this silence makes you an enemy to God and brings destruction both to you who conceal such sinners and to those whose sins go unrevealed. How much better it is to become hateful to our fellow servants for saving them to provoke God's anger against yourselves. Even if your fellow servant be vexed with you now, he will not be able to harm you but will be grateful later on for his cure. But if you seek to win your fellow servant's favor, if you remain silent and hurt him by concealing his sin, God will exact from you the ultimate penalty."
+St. John Chrysostom+
As much as I adore appeals to the fathers this is out of context - St John wrote it against people who have led apostasy away from Christ to return to Judaic practices. This cannot be applied to this situation, no one here had led any rebellion away from the faith.
It comes from his writing against Judaising Christians:
http://goo.gl/jnmCZ
When we quote fathers we must be careful to check the context to make sure the quote is relevant and we're not using the father to say something they didn't intend.
Please pray for me,
LiD
Am not saying that whenever we see someone sinning and deviating from God we should rebuke them, the Fathers even say that it is better to conceal our brothers' sins and pray for them in humility and simplicity. But surely there are a times when we ought speak up, with discernment and love.
I personally would rather someone rebuked me here on earth for some error, and save me from eternal damnation and rebuke later on- even though, in my pride, i might dislike the person at first.
Please correct me if i have wronged in anything.
PFM
Forgive me for quoting St. John out of context. But even though he gives these homilies in the light of fellow brethren who turned away from Christ, can't it still be applied to us to a certain extent? Or should we only exhort each other only when one has denounced the Truth or fallen into some heresy (God forbid). Aren't we also also in a certain sense turning away from God- on account of our imperfection (even though we haven't denied the true faith).
Am not saying that whenever we see someone sinning and deviating from God we should rebuke them, the Fathers even say that it is better to conceal our brothers' sins and pray for them in humility and simplicity. But surely there are a times when we ought speak up, with discernment and love.
I personally would rather someone rebuked me here on earth for some error, and save me from eternal damnation and rebuke later on- even though, in my pride, i might dislike the person at first.
Please correct me if i have wronged in anything.
PFM
Thank you brother for your gentle response and you are very correct we should draw from this passage; the matter of whether or not we should correct one another is up for discussion - it goes without saying we must!!! If we're brothers and sisters we must be honest enough to have each others back and to say what needs to be said when its required. My point is that we must do it as just that - brothers and sisters who love and care for each other - not as random strangers on the internet.
There is a story from the life of St Silouan, when he was a young man he accidentally made pork for his family on a friday and they all ate it. His father was a gentle man and he waited for over 6 months for just the right moment and then told his son that when he ate the pork that day it felt like he was eating death. This is how a loving father speaks to a child and searches for just the right moment to correct them.
St John's severe response was to people who are leading others away from the faith, which makes it a matter of life and death; whether or not the same sternness is required to us for not harshly rebuking a 14 y/o girl who got into a tiff at Church is another matter.
In the case of the latter St John needed to speak to protect his flock in the case of the thread here, the young girl came to a coptic forum for advice and this is how we treated her? She is still posting her so I am assuming she is proud of her faith and wants to be a better Christian, for that reason she deserved better than this from us.
We talk about how difficult this medium is to gauge things and to communicate but I feel we need to make ourselves more accountable; especially when we create division. We're all so big on making others accountable but we don't take the time to put our own hands up and admit when we're the causes of disunity and hurt.
Please pray for me,
LiD
I pray that any distractions that prevent you from glorifing God subside so you will be able to focas on your own weaknesses <+Christiangirl+> Your in a time of life when things are a bit impetuios (careless) and if we are hard or soft on you it is because we want you going in the right direction with us following God.
[quote author=Christs' servant link=topic=12554.msg147485#msg147485 date=1321262844]
Forgive me for quoting St. John out of context. But even though he gives these homilies in the light of fellow brethren who turned away from Christ, can't it still be applied to us to a certain extent? Or should we only exhort each other only when one has denounced the Truth or fallen into some heresy (God forbid). Aren't we also also in a certain sense turning away from God- on account of our imperfection (even though we haven't denied the true faith).
Am not saying that whenever we see someone sinning and deviating from God we should rebuke them, the Fathers even say that it is better to conceal our brothers' sins and pray for them in humility and simplicity. But surely there are a times when we ought speak up, with discernment and love.
I personally would rather someone rebuked me here on earth for some error, and save me from eternal damnation and rebuke later on- even though, in my pride, i might dislike the person at first.
Please correct me if i have wronged in anything.
PFM
Thank you brother for your gentle response and you are very correct we should draw from this passage; the matter of whether or not we should correct one another is up for discussion - it goes without saying we must!!! If we're brothers and sisters we must be honest enough to have each others back and to say what needs to be said when its required. My point is that we must do it as just that - brothers and sisters who love and care for each other - not as random strangers on the internet.
There is a story from the life of St Silouan, when he was a young man he accidentally made pork for his family on a friday and they all ate it. His father was a gentle man and he waited for over 6 months for just the right moment and then told his son that when he ate the pork that day it felt like he was eating death. This is how a loving father speaks to a child and searches for just the right moment to correct them.
St John's severe response was to people who are leading others away from the faith, which makes it a matter of life and death; whether or not the same sternness is required to us for not harshly rebuking a 14 y/o girl who got into a tiff at Church is another matter.
In the case of the latter St John needed to speak to protect his flock in the case of the thread here, the young girl came to a coptic forum for advice and this is how we treated her? She is still posting her so I am assuming she is proud of her faith and wants to be a better Christian, for that reason she deserved better than this from us.
We talk about how difficult this medium is to gauge things and to communicate but I feel we need to make ourselves more accountable; especially when we create division. We're all so big on making others accountable but we don't take the time to put our own hands up and admit when we're the causes of disunity and hurt.
Please pray for me,
LiD
You make some really good points... sorry for misinterpreting your reply.
On a side note, am in awe of the story form St Silouan's life. I can't even remember what i ate last week let alone 6 months ago!!! It just goes to show the extreme sensitivity of their hearts and the rectitude in their lives... May we, with God's help, follow their example.
Tc
I will repeat: You have got to be kidding.
In the interests of not adding more fuel to a heated discussion and saying thing we might regret, would it be alright if we continued our discussion over PM?
Please pray for me,
LiD
[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=12554.msg147524#msg147524 date=1321321733]
I will repeat: You have got to be kidding.
In the interests of not adding more fuel to a heated discussion and saying thing we might regret, would it be alright if we continued our discussion over PM?
Please pray for me,
LiD
And in the interest of not talking for the simple reason of proving our own points but giving a good answer to Melissa about what to do about her problem, can we simply summarize what the main answer of this thread is, and forget who did what is right and who did what is wrong? In the end, we are all being children in not wanting to step down and let this girl have benefit. This thread has gone off on a tangent of how to admonish. Let's be humble (not just talk about how it is important to answer with humility) and step away from useless arguments.
Is there anybody out there who can take the inner meaning of what was said in the whole thread about what Melissa should do to get the best of her spirituality? Somebody unbiased please. No comments on anything, but simply a response to the original question posted by Melissa.
ReturnOrthodoxy
Melissa, thank you for your post. We all are looking forward to learning more about you and hearing your comments on the forums. Regarding your initial question, there are a number of concerns we have that suggest the need for a major refocusing of your spiritual mentality. Certain aspects of jealousy, looking down on others, and pride are not fruits of the spirit and suggest there is a lot for you to learn and grow in your spiritual life. Many of us (including myself) have had similar experiences until God somehow changes our hearts and we catch of glimpse of what it truly means to love God and love His church. Many of the posters here have already good comments with ideas like talking to your Abouna, reading the Bible more, and learning church hymns. I encourage you to stay active on the forums so you can learn more from the other members and encourage you to keep this initial post bookmarked so you (as I said previously) can come back in a year or so and understand the issues on your own. It is great that you are only 14, because you can learn more at a young age, (I was 18 when I first heard of tasbeha.org). God bless you and we are looking forward to engaging with you on the forums.
- Tasbeha.org members
ReturnOrthodoxy
My approach is to forgive first, even when seeking repentance. I find it takes more patience with someone and not a harder reaction when wanting repentance. Am I too soft or kidding in taking this attitude? I would desire to be in communion with our Church Fathers on forgiveness.
You asked us to pray for you and I hope my replys have been in this vein.
You have my support! That sums up everything well!
ReturnOrthodoxy
+1
You are right LoveisDivine. Sorry for adding more fuel.
Your spiritual life should be taken seriously. Being 14 years old in not an excuse for anything. We need to be real. Making excuses for her will allow her to continue in her ways, which leads to more problems when she grows up. This is why some of our churches are so corrupt, is because some people need the "spiritual slipper." Get REAL people. enough making excuse for a girl that clearly looking at people and her church the wrong way.
@ChristianGirl, We all go through these things at this young age, and it's when we become more observant and judgmental of our surroundings. Is your age an excuse to do these things? Absolutely not. We need to learn to have more of a simple eye (which is something all humans need to work on.) which is hopefully something you'll get better as you get older. May God enlighten our eyes, and teach us all to be more humble.
Well ok, let me know what you think:
Melissa, thank you for your post. We all are looking forward to learning more about you and hearing your comments on the forums. Regarding your initial question, there are a number of concerns we have that suggest the need for a major refocusing of your spiritual mentality. Certain aspects of jealousy, looking down on others, and pride are not fruits of the spirit and suggest there is a lot for you to learn and grow in your spiritual life. Many of us (including myself) have had similar experiences until God somehow changes our hearts and we catch of glimpse of what it truly means to love God and love His church. Many of the posters here have already good comments with ideas like talking to your Abouna, reading the Bible more, and learning church hymns. I encourage you to stay active on the forums so you can learn more from the other members and encourage you to keep this initial post bookmarked so you (as I said previously) can come back in a year or so and understand the issues on your own. It is great that you are only 14, because you can learn more at a young age, (I was 18 when I first heard of tasbeha.org). God bless you and we are looking forward to engaging with you on the forums.
- Tasbeha.org members
I learn a lot of hymns only because we are taught in church and also because of tasbeha.org and Youtube