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Hey there
Hey there,
I thought I'd go ahead and formally introduce myself on this forum as i see no need to be anonymous anylonger, since I'll essentially have the same opinions and generally no concerns expressing them if I pumped into anyone of you on the street.
My name is gabriel yakub yet some of you may know me as copticyouth86 or learn2dance. I'm from Sydney Australia and was raised in the coptic church. I've attended two coptic schools, two catholic schools and one public school - not in that order-. I'm studying a bachelor of audio production and I'm a student and teacher of vocal training.
Although I attend church (youth meeting), bible study, and recently a short course in patrology at Sydney's coptic theological college on a weekly basis, I am a not a believer (in God). Obviously I don't think people should necissarily have to leave thier community (nor disregard their heritage for that matter) because they don't share the same beliefs anymore. I think the more we educate ourselves and discuss with eachother the more we build an understanding of the people around us, and through that may come appreciation (we hope).
I hope I've provided some insight into the bane of some of your expreinces on this forum, that is me. For thos who probably know me or of me outside this forum Im always open for a nice chat. I look forward to future interactions.
~Gabe
I thought I'd go ahead and formally introduce myself on this forum as i see no need to be anonymous anylonger, since I'll essentially have the same opinions and generally no concerns expressing them if I pumped into anyone of you on the street.
My name is gabriel yakub yet some of you may know me as copticyouth86 or learn2dance. I'm from Sydney Australia and was raised in the coptic church. I've attended two coptic schools, two catholic schools and one public school - not in that order-. I'm studying a bachelor of audio production and I'm a student and teacher of vocal training.
Although I attend church (youth meeting), bible study, and recently a short course in patrology at Sydney's coptic theological college on a weekly basis, I am a not a believer (in God). Obviously I don't think people should necissarily have to leave thier community (nor disregard their heritage for that matter) because they don't share the same beliefs anymore. I think the more we educate ourselves and discuss with eachother the more we build an understanding of the people around us, and through that may come appreciation (we hope).
I hope I've provided some insight into the bane of some of your expreinces on this forum, that is me. For thos who probably know me or of me outside this forum Im always open for a nice chat. I look forward to future interactions.
~Gabe
Comments
[quote author=GabrielYakub link=topic=12639.msg148410#msg148410 date=1322990037]
Although I attend church (youth meeting), bible study, and recently a short course in patrology at Sydney's coptic theological college on a weekly basis, I am a not a believer (in God).
If I understood correctly, this may be a problem.
We hope and pray for you, our brother.
+++
I am a not a believer (in God). Obviously I don't think people should necissarily have to leave thier community (nor disregard their heritage for that matter) because they don't share the same beliefs anymore.
Thank you for your formal introduction, but I must say that it is this part of your statement which explains much of your views in the matters which we have discussed in these forums. That is why you view topics like Homosexuality as a conflict of tradition rather than a moral problem dictated to us by the most high.
You are definitely welcome to join the topics here, we are not totalitarian angry people, but I must say, that your view of "copticness" as being a heritage rather than being a church which embodies the commands of the Lord is (to me) a great cause to question much that you say.
I don't know if I should say welcome as you have always been on this site, but at least, I can say, it's good to put a background to the ideas.
ReturnOrthodoxy
If I may ask, why have you lost your faith in God?
What has led you to this point?
+++
I really appreciate your comments and questions as well as the pleasant welcomes.
Peter A: A couple of reasons, I do enjoy studying religion and I did mention something about education, I think it can provide an avenue in which one can understand where the other person is coming from. As my friends currently comprise of many coptic christians and as I'm rather still actively involved in the community in some ways, I find it to be rather appropriate.
The God Christ: The short of it is, overtime I became unconvinced that God existed.
~Gabe
The God Christ: The short of it is, overtime I became unconvinced that God existed.
If "God Christ" refers to Jesus Christ, how did you come to that conclusion.
I can see and understand how people can believe that there is no 'god', a being that created all and controls all. But Jesus Christ was a true person--a human being that was witnessed to many history and not only His followers. When atheist or agnostics tried to refute Christmas, they attacked virgin birth but not the born Child's existence.
The three types of atheists I have experienced:
1. The arrogant, pseudo-intellectual;
2. The immoral, who wishes to deny God so he can placate his conscience about his sin;
3. The angry one who thinks that God caused something to happen to him or someone around him.
They all know deep down that God exists simply because the soul knows its origin. There conflict is not with others but rather with themselves: it is the soul and heart vs. the brain and mouth.
In the end when we are dead there will be no doubt about any presence of God.
Your introduction explains the veiled approaches you used in other threads. You fall into one of the above categories.
The question is: "do you wish to stay in those categories?"
Ilovesaintmark: So let me get this straight, because you believe that I have a soul that exists inside me that tells my brain God is real, I am therefore a liar and an arrogant or immoral or angry theist?
First of all, this accusation is not only unfounded but its completely insulting. Second, your claim to knowledge is based on an assertion which you have not demonstrated to have any basis in reality. So in short your argument appears invalid, unsound and rather denigrating. Not a very useful post to anyone.
~Gabe
Welcome. I rarely post here, but I figured it would be nice to become a better member of the community by welcoming someone else. :)
Also, were you ever known as "dustymoot" somewhere else online?
Mike
I'm not sure why everyone is so hard on Gabriel here already, when he just introduced himself. Perhaps he may have turned to atheism in his quest to understand more about his life, especially since he's been involved in the Coptic church and is studying its theology.
the rest of this message may not apply to Gabriel right now, but my audience here are those who are Christians and are going too hard on Gabriel admitting his atheism:
There's nothing wrong with atheism. A lot of people go through a period of atheism (not just agnosticism, but whole-hearted atheism) in long periods of their lives. Even I've been through it, and I'm a theologian!
One of the Russian priests (who was once an atheist too) taught that atheism is a phase in a true Christian life. I agree with that assessment. In fact, I think Christians who never went through a period of atheism in their lives are self-deceived about their faith! No one can be a Christian - a follower of Christ - without being Christ-like, experiencing the sorrow, the loneliness, and the emptiness of carrying the cross. For after this emptiness, there is found the fulness of Truth; after this sorrow, there is found victory; after this loneliness, there is found Love.
People who are Christians who turn to atheism are more truer Christians when they find Christ in their atheism.
So, I think everyone here over-reacted to Gabriel's confession of atheism, and judged him, when he's probably ahead of all of us spiritually!
The God Christ: The short of it is, overtime I became unconvinced that God existed.
[quote author=GabrielYakub link=topic=12639.msg148442#msg148442 date=1323058139]
Yes I think historians by consensus agree that Jesus was a person that existed 2000 or so years ago. The disputes have really been about the claims of miracles and divine intervention that are mentioned in the bible.
Gabe,
The best way to know if God truly exists is to personally experience His guiding hand in your life. There is an enormous difference between knowing about God, and actually "knowing" God.
It is an extraordinary and miraculous thing that we mere mortals are able to live, interact, and become filled with the divine light of God.
To put it simply, "nothing else exists" when a person experiences this.
Have you tried to "know" God personally? Have you had the chance to know each Person of the Holy Trinity?
Do an hour of the Agpeya for one week. Put all your energy into it, be diligent, and do not miss any sessions. Confess that you are a sinner, devoid of any understanding. Cry out to this God, with all your might, and "spare not your throat." Pray that God grants you sheer faith within your heart.
If this God responds, if the peace of the Eternal Logos fills your heart, then you will know that there is something there...it is not just air or a wall. It is the Unknowable God who has made Himself knowable to us, weak and stupid selves we are.
This, above all else, will invalidate every qualm that you may have about miracles...
You have nothing to lose, and eternal peace to gain.
We will pray that His Will be done in your life.
✞✞✞
I would like to make it clear that's myself have also had my times of doubt, and am still going through them. To know that, all you would have to do is read my post called "Where to?" and you would figure that out. So, forgive me Gabe if I made you feel as though you were a terrible person, and that I was in some way better than you, that is not what I meant to do. I am not against you admitting atheism, I only claim it gives a background on where you are coming from.
I did not mean to judge you as a person, as if I were to do that, I would have to condemn myself for my doubts.
ReturnOrthodoxy
[quote author=GabrielYakub link=topic=12639.msg148435#msg148435 date=1323051008]
The God Christ: The short of it is, overtime I became unconvinced that God existed.
[quote author=GabrielYakub link=topic=12639.msg148442#msg148442 date=1323058139]
Yes I think historians by consensus agree that Jesus was a person that existed 2000 or so years ago. The disputes have really been about the claims of miracles and divine intervention that are mentioned in the bible.
Gabe,
The best way to know if God truly exists is to personally experience His guiding hand in your life. There is an enormous difference between knowing about God, and actually "knowing" God.
It is an extraordinary and miraculous thing that we mere mortals are able to live, interact, and become filled with the divine light of God.
To put it simply, "nothing else exists" when a person experiences this.
Have you tried to "know" God personally? Have you had the chance to know each Person of the Holy Trinity?
Do an hour of the Agpeya for one week. Put all your energy into it, be diligent, and do not miss any sessions. Confess that you are a sinner, devoid of any understanding. Cry out to this God, with all your might, and "spare not your throat." Pray that God grants you sheer faith within your heart.
If this God responds, if the peace of the Eternal Logos fills your heart, then you will know that there is something there...it is not just air or a wall. It is the Unknowable God who has made Himself knowable to us, weak and stupid selves we are.
This, above all else, will invalidate every qualm that you may have about miracles...
You have nothing to lose, and eternal peace to gain.
We will pray that His Will be done in your life.
✞✞✞
Please avoid Evangelical language in your posts. This isn't Orthodoxy AT ALL!
[quote author=✞TheGodChrist✞ link=topic=12639.msg148445#msg148445 date=1323062126]
[quote author=GabrielYakub link=topic=12639.msg148435#msg148435 date=1323051008]
The God Christ: The short of it is, overtime I became unconvinced that God existed.
[quote author=GabrielYakub link=topic=12639.msg148442#msg148442 date=1323058139]
Yes I think historians by consensus agree that Jesus was a person that existed 2000 or so years ago. The disputes have really been about the claims of miracles and divine intervention that are mentioned in the bible.
Gabe,
The best way to know if God truly exists is to personally experience His guiding hand in your life. There is an enormous difference between knowing about God, and actually "knowing" God.
It is an extraordinary and miraculous thing that we mere mortals are able to live, interact, and become filled with the divine light of God.
To put it simply, "nothing else exists" when a person experiences this.
Have you tried to "know" God personally? Have you had the chance to know each Person of the Holy Trinity?
Do an hour of the Agpeya for one week. Put all your energy into it, be diligent, and do not miss any sessions. Confess that you are a sinner, devoid of any understanding. Cry out to this God, with all your might, and "spare not your throat." Pray that God grants you sheer faith within your heart.
If this God responds, if the peace of the Eternal Logos fills your heart, then you will know that there is something there...it is not just air or a wall. It is the Unknowable God who has made Himself knowable to us, weak and stupid selves we are.
This, above all else, will invalidate every qualm that you may have about miracles...
You have nothing to lose, and eternal peace to gain.
We will pray that His Will be done in your life.
✞✞✞
Please avoid Evangelical language in your posts. This isn't Orthodoxy AT ALL!
I see nothing wrong with it. Agpeya is pretty Orthodox.
✞✞✞
Biboboy: I don't think it's a fair assessment to say that atheism is necessary for a true Christianity. Aside from the fact that I find it hard to believe that the great saints in our church who were "cradle" Christians had to have gone through a period of outright atheism in order to solidify their faith, it doesn't seem like a necessary part of being a Christian. It might be a bit extreme to say that.
With that said, there is more truth to what you say than falsehood. We all must go through (and grow through!) periods of time in our lives when God's presence seems to be utterly out of our lives. It's quite easy to become despondent and reject the idea of God's love and care and existence when we have no immediate experience of it. That's why Christ on the Cross imitated King David and said, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" Similar expressions of such despair are found all over the Bible. But does that means we must reject God and belief in His existence? Sure, it might not seem like He exists, especially since things seem to all go wrong, as if He is not taking care of us. So in that sense, you are correct. But why should we then lose faith in God? Should we not instead lose faith in our own momentary perception of God's presence?
Easier said than done, of course. Whoever doesn't struggle with doubts (these days, at least) is either over-protected, ignorant, or extremely blessed.
Agape,
I'm not sure why everyone is so hard on Gabriel here already, when he just introduced himself. Perhaps he may have turned to atheism in his quest to understand more about his life, especially since he's been involved in the Coptic church and is studying its theology.
the rest of this message may not apply to Gabriel right now, but my audience here are those who are Christians and are going too hard on Gabriel admitting his atheism:
There's nothing wrong with atheism. A lot of people go through a period of atheism (not just agnosticism, but whole-hearted atheism) in long periods of their lives. Even I've been through it, and I'm a theologian!
One of the Russian priests (who was once an atheist too) taught that atheism is a phase in a true Christian life. I agree with that assessment. In fact, I think Christians who never went through a period of atheism in their lives are self-deceived about their faith! No one can be a Christian - a follower of Christ - without being Christ-like, experiencing the sorrow, the loneliness, and the emptiness of carrying the cross. For after this emptiness, there is found the fulness of Truth; after this sorrow, there is found victory; after this loneliness, there is found Love.
People who are Christians who turn to atheism are more truer Christians when they find Christ in their atheism.
So, I think everyone here over-reacted to Gabriel's confession of atheism, and judged him, when he's probably ahead of all of us spiritually!
I suppose a lot of the criticism stems from his previous threads. I do agree with a lot of what you said though- even given Gabriel's explanation as to why he attends youth meetings and Bible studies, I don't think it would be too outrageous to say that there may be something deeper that's compelling him to go. I went through this atheist phase too. I felt that my life was devoid of God, and I'd reached the conclusion that this was because he did not exist at all. Now I look back and see how foolish I was, but going through that phase has made my faith stronger today.
[quote author=Biboboy link=topic=12639.msg148447#msg148447 date=1323062482]
[quote author=✞TheGodChrist✞ link=topic=12639.msg148445#msg148445 date=1323062126]
[quote author=GabrielYakub link=topic=12639.msg148435#msg148435 date=1323051008]
The God Christ: The short of it is, overtime I became unconvinced that God existed.
[quote author=GabrielYakub link=topic=12639.msg148442#msg148442 date=1323058139]
Yes I think historians by consensus agree that Jesus was a person that existed 2000 or so years ago. The disputes have really been about the claims of miracles and divine intervention that are mentioned in the bible.
Gabe,
The best way to know if God truly exists is to personally experience His guiding hand in your life. There is an enormous difference between knowing about God, and actually "knowing" God.
It is an extraordinary and miraculous thing that we mere mortals are able to live, interact, and become filled with the divine light of God.
To put it simply, "nothing else exists" when a person experiences this.
Have you tried to "know" God personally? Have you had the chance to know each Person of the Holy Trinity?
Do an hour of the Agpeya for one week. Put all your energy into it, be diligent, and do not miss any sessions. Confess that you are a sinner, devoid of any understanding. Cry out to this God, with all your might, and "spare not your throat." Pray that God grants you sheer faith within your heart.
If this God responds, if the peace of the Eternal Logos fills your heart, then you will know that there is something there...it is not just air or a wall. It is the Unknowable God who has made Himself knowable to us, weak and stupid selves we are.
This, above all else, will invalidate every qualm that you may have about miracles...
You have nothing to lose, and eternal peace to gain.
We will pray that His Will be done in your life.
✞✞✞
Please avoid Evangelical language in your posts. This isn't Orthodoxy AT ALL!
I see nothing wrong with it. Agpeya is pretty Orthodox.
✞✞✞
I think it was a beautiful post.
Now I look back and see how foolish I was, but going through that phase has made my faith stronger today.
Agreed. God sometimes uses these periods of doubt to make us stronger in the long run.
Happy 500th post! ;D
[quote author=✞TheGodChrist✞ link=topic=12639.msg148448#msg148448 date=1323062575]
[quote author=Biboboy link=topic=12639.msg148447#msg148447 date=1323062482]
[quote author=✞TheGodChrist✞ link=topic=12639.msg148445#msg148445 date=1323062126]
[quote author=GabrielYakub link=topic=12639.msg148435#msg148435 date=1323051008]
The God Christ: The short of it is, overtime I became unconvinced that God existed.
[quote author=GabrielYakub link=topic=12639.msg148442#msg148442 date=1323058139]
Yes I think historians by consensus agree that Jesus was a person that existed 2000 or so years ago. The disputes have really been about the claims of miracles and divine intervention that are mentioned in the bible.
Gabe,
The best way to know if God truly exists is to personally experience His guiding hand in your life. There is an enormous difference between knowing about God, and actually "knowing" God.
It is an extraordinary and miraculous thing that we mere mortals are able to live, interact, and become filled with the divine light of God.
To put it simply, "nothing else exists" when a person experiences this.
Have you tried to "know" God personally? Have you had the chance to know each Person of the Holy Trinity?
Do an hour of the Agpeya for one week. Put all your energy into it, be diligent, and do not miss any sessions. Confess that you are a sinner, devoid of any understanding. Cry out to this God, with all your might, and "spare not your throat." Pray that God grants you sheer faith within your heart.
If this God responds, if the peace of the Eternal Logos fills your heart, then you will know that there is something there...it is not just air or a wall. It is the Unknowable God who has made Himself knowable to us, weak and stupid selves we are.
This, above all else, will invalidate every qualm that you may have about miracles...
You have nothing to lose, and eternal peace to gain.
We will pray that His Will be done in your life.
✞✞✞
Please avoid Evangelical language in your posts. This isn't Orthodoxy AT ALL!
I see nothing wrong with it. Agpeya is pretty Orthodox.
✞✞✞
I think it was a beautiful post.
That was a great post!
[quote author=George_Mina_Awad link=topic=12639.msg148455#msg148455 date=1323102002]
Now I look back and see how foolish I was, but going through that phase has made my faith stronger today.
Agreed. God sometimes uses these periods of doubt to make us stronger in the long run.
Happy 500th post! ;D
Thanks ;D I'm throwing a 500th post party to celebrate. There's gonna be a piñata ;D
Address:
777 Shoutbox Rd.
Tasbeha.org, America 77777
It is apparent from the original post that "Church" means only Church services: youth meetings, bible study and such. In this case, I have a hard time seeing why one would go out of his way and attend a Church service (more than once) that instructs on the Coptic faith and still insist God does not exist. There must be ulterior motives. The most frequent motive atheist exhibit is to convince the average parishioner that an educated person will see how their faith is lacking through "logical" proof.. They are there to confuse people and drive a wedge into people's faith in the name of pseudo-intellectualism. It is a self-seeking evil. Look at what St James writes, "Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show by good conduct that his works are done in the meekness of wisdom. But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts, do not ... lie against the truth. This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic." James 3:13-15. Atheism is earthly, sensual and demonic. Period.
Gabriel, from your original post, you did not make it clear if you consider yourself an atheist or temporarily doubting the faith. If you don't want to believe in God, that's your choice and you will suffer any judgment from God. But to clarify, the Church will extend loving arms in hope of your return to the faith. But there is no tolerance to accept an atheist who refuses to change. Period.
It's bad enough that Protestant beliefs, customs, homosexuality, and socialism are covertly making a path and a door into the Church in the name of intellectualism. We don't need atheism to go through that door.
Remenkimi, no one suggested that atheism should be preached from the pulpit of the church. It certainly is a denial of what the church believes, and affirmation of belief in God's presence and the grace given to us through the sacraments Christ instituted are essential in receiving the sacraments.
If you read my post carefully, all I was saying is that Christians who turn to atheism (not agnosticism, but atheism), are going through a spiritual stage in their lives. Do you suppose that those Christians, who received the grace of the Holy Spirit in their baptism, when they reject the existence of God because of what they heard in a university lecture, or youtube, of because of a personal situation that caused suffering - do you think that the Holy Spirit leaves them? My faith informs me that the Spirit will guide them even through this darkness of atheism. It will be difficult to hear the Spirit, but the Spirit is God's love calling. Blessed are those ears when they hear, and blessed are their eyes when they see! For those Christians-turned-atheists-turned-Christians turn out to be stronger in faith.
As for those who were born in atheistic households and never knew Christ... I just have to bring up one example in the Coptic church: Abouna Lazarus St. Antony. Look at what he's gone through, and where he is now.
Atheism doesn't last. Like you said, it's pseudo-intellectualism. I agree with that assessment, as most of these rationalists and logical positivists who are atheists just ridicule people of faith for being without reason, where they turn a blind eye to thousands of people (if not millions) who have a very rational faith - faith with understanding, and understanding with faith.
As a conclusion to what I've said, I suggest reading Fr. Seraphim Rose's book on Nihilism. You can find the book online for free on this website:
http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/arch/nihilism.html
Here's one of the most famous statements made by this saintly monk of the United States:
"Atheism, true 'existential' atheism burning with hatred of a seemingly unjust or unmerciful God, is a spiritual state; it is a real attempt to grapple with the true God Whose ways are so inexplicable even to the most believing of men, and it has more than once been known to end in a blinding vision of Him Whom the real atheist truly seeks. It is Christ Who works in these souls. The Antichrist is not to be found primarily in the great deniers, but in the small affirmers, whose Christ is only on the lips. Nietzsche, in calling himself Antichrist, proved thereby his intense hunger for Christ...."
I understand that atheism can be considered a spiritual sickness. And I can even accept that atheism is not a "true" spiritual disease as Fr Seraphim Rose describes. I know the Church is the hospital for such infirmities. However, just like people who refuse physical medicine and medical advise, there are people who refuse spiritual medicine and are being harmful to those who are seeking help. Until they own their spiritual sickness, there is no reason to associate with them and their presence should be forcefully removed.
This is different from the Christian who suffers from moments of weakness. They acknowledge their weakness and seek the Holy Spirit to guide them through it, as you mentioned. But they already own their spiritual sickness.
Bibo, I wasn't attacking your post. I just wanted to make the distinction very clear since it seemed most people were of the opinion that the two conditions are the same. Subconsciously they seemed to believe, if the Christian suffering from moments of weakness is welcomed and expected to come to the Church, then the cradle atheist should enjoy the same right. No. Only the repentant enjoys the rights Christ gives to his Church.
Do you agree?
We haven't heard St. Ambrose rebuking St. Augustine that only the repentant can enjoy the "rights Christ gives to his Church." He let him stay to hear the words of God, and it was the Truth of God who changed him.
Remnkemi, I don't think its fair that you can jump to the conclusion that I or anyone else has an ulterior motive just because you have a "hard time seeing why one would go out of his way and attend Church...and still insist God does not exist".
Would I or any other person be justified in accusing you for having an ulterior motive just because we have a hard time seeing why you wold attend a mosque or a synagogue even though you claim that you would like to learn more about other people's religion as a Copt?
The answer is pretty clear.
Furthermore, you are in no position to claim what type of people the church will accept and what it will not in regards to your assertion that "there is no tolerance to accept an atheist who refuses to change. Period." My experience completely contradicts your statement. In addition I think its baseless claims like these, on a public forum that push away and discourage people from even attempting to come back to their own community. Please watch what you say, because you never know who could be reading your posts.
Peace.
[Edit: additional text]
The dishonest atheist seems to be the more common. He is the "pseudo-intellectual" that ridicules all belief in God simply because it seems like "rubbish" to him. Like Remnkimi said, God, to him, is like Santa Clause and the tooth fairy. He is not content in merely being an atheist, but he will only rest after he makes it know to the entire world that God doesn't exist. Instead of searching for the Truth, he is convinced he already has it. He has an agenda, and is too proud to realize he is just as illogical as the ones he accuses of a lack of logic.
The honest atheist, on the other hand, is probably less common. Perhaps he doesn't believe in God because he never saw the need to in his own experience, maybe because he was not raised in it, or because he felt rejected by the Church for having inordinate desires, or because he saw that the Church is made up of fallen human beings, and he could not reconcile any of that with the idea of a perfect and loving God, which he seeks. So, he does not believe. But his heart is good and pure, and he honestly seeks the Truth, if it is to be found.
I guess it depends on the heart. And the heart is a mystery, so we have no right to judge Gabriel's motives for remaining in the Church/church. Even if he has ulterior motives, God is clearly greater than they are, and is able to overcome them.
"Within the heart there are unfathomable depths; there are reception rooms and bedchambers within it, doors and porches and many offices and passages. In it is the workshop of righteousness; in it is the workshop of wickedness. In it is death, and in it is life. The heart itself is only a small vessel, yet dragons are there, and lions; there are poisonous beasts and all the treasures of evil; there are rough and uneven roads; there are precipices; but there too are God and the angels; life is there, and the kingdom; there too is light, and there the apostles, and heavenly cities, and treasures of grace. All things lie within that little space." - St. Macarius