"Foolish" ???

Comments

• marmar357

  December 2011

  Merry Christmas!
  
  Interesting question..
• mikehenry

  December 2011

  Merry Christmas to you too!
  
  It's funny that you just posted this. I was thinking the same exact thing these past couple of days.
  
  In my albeit imperfect understanding of this, I think what is necessary to take into account is the reason for which St. Paul and Christ use these words (that is, "Foolish" and "brood of vipers") against those to whom they address their writing/speech.
  
  When Christ admonishes us not to call each other "Raca" or "Fool," I think we are to take it as not to bear any ill will toward others. It's often not the action that He condemns, but the impure heart, and He says in Matthew 12:34, "For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks." In the case of St. Paul, clearly he does not bear any ill will in his heart toward the Galatians or the Corinthians--he is speaking for their wellbeing. And of course, that is true of Christ--Love incarnate--because He loved the Pharisees, but the only way they would have listened, because of the hardness of their hearts, was through Christ's "tough love," so to speak.
  
  Also, the Greek words are different in all three passages:
  
  In Matthew 5:22, the word is moros, from which we get "moron."
  In Galatians 3:1, the word is anoetos, which, I think, is a lot milder. Perhaps the Greek experts here can help us.
  In 1 Corinthians 15:36, the word is afron, which is probably like anoetos (I know that's not much help).
  
  So, even if you want to look at it as a fundamentalist, St. Paul never actually breaks the commandment of Christ, because he doesn't use "raca" or "moros."
  
  My two cents. I hope that makes sense!
  
  Mike
• Qidus_Michael

  December 2011

  In the name of the Holy Father, and the Holy Son, and the Holy Spirit, One God, Amen!
  
  The Holy Bible verse states "that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment.
  When Our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ spoke about the Pharisees He did so because they were being stubborn, and not willing to
  see that Christ was right in front of them, so He rebuked them to reveal the truth to them.
  
  If one is angry at someone for no reason and calls them names just to be rude and disrespectful , then that obviously isn't appropriate.
  There is a difference between calling one foolish out of love and calling them foolish out of the bitterness of their heart.
  Our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ loved everyone even the Pharisees who rebuked Him, but out of the love in His heart that He had for everyone, He spoke to them aiming to turn their hearts that were hardened, likewise St. Paul called the congregation foolish out of the love he had for them in order to  led them on the right path.
  
  I hope this helps, and may God grant me to be able to find Holy Father quotes on this topic as well
  
  May God bless you and help you Amen!
• abrahamf

  December 2011

  [quote author=Μιχαὴλ Ἕνρη link=topic=12728.msg149496#msg149496 date=1324843310]
  Merry Christmas to you too!
  
  It's funny that you just posted this. I was thinking the same exact thing these past couple of days.
  
  In my albeit imperfect understanding of this, I think what is necessary to take into account is the reason for which St. Paul and Christ use these words (that is, "Foolish" and "brood of vipers") against those to whom they address their writing/speech.
  
  When Christ admonishes us not to call each other "Raca" or "Fool," I think we are to take it as not to bear any ill will toward others. It's often not the action that He condemns, but the impure heart, and He says in Matthew 12:34, "For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks." In the case of St. Paul, clearly he does not bear any ill will in his heart toward the Galatians or the Corinthians--he is speaking for their wellbeing. And of course, that is true of Christ--Love incarnate--because He loved the Pharisees, but the only way they would have listened, because of the hardness of their hearts, was through Christ's "tough love," so to speak.
  
  Also, the Greek words are different in all three passages:
  
  In Matthew 5:22, the word is moros, from which we get "moron."
  In Galatians 3:1, the word is anoetos, which, I think, is a lot milder. Perhaps the Greek experts here can help us.
  In 1 Corinthians 15:36, the word is afron, which is probably like anoetos (I know that's not much help).
  
  So, even if you want to look at it as a fundamentalist, St. Paul never actually breaks the commandment of Christ, because he doesn't use "raca" or "moros."
  
  My two cents. I hope that makes sense!
  
  Mike
  
  
  Mike,
  
  Thanks for your reply :) You say that it's important "not to bear any ill will toward others", but what about if I call my friend a fool, as a joke, I sure do not mean to insult and bear no ill will towards him, would i still run the risk of condemnation?
  
  Agpeya,
  
  That did help! Thanks... Am not sure if this is right, but it seems to me that once you personalise an attack is when you go wrong. Christ and St. Paul both were speaking to a group of people, not a certain individual.
  
  If you do find any of their sayings please share, I can't seem to find any  :(
  
  
• jojo204

  December 2011

  +[quote author=Christs' servant link=topic=12728.msg149518#msg149518 date=1324896207]
  If you do find any of their sayings please share, I can't seem to find any :(
  
  A certain brother asked Abba Poeman saying, "What do these words mean, 'If a man be angry with his brother without a cause?" (Matt 5:22)'" The old man said to him, "If your brother makes use of oppression, wrong, or fraud to you, and you are angry with him because of these, you are angry with him without a cause. And if he tears out your right eye or cuts off your right hand, and you are angry with him, you are angry with him without a cause. But if a man wishes to separate you or to put you away from God, then it is a good thing to be angry and wrathful with him." - The Paradise of the Holy Fathers, Vol. II.
  
  [quote author=Μιχαὴλ Ἕνρη link=topic=12728.msg149496#msg149496 date=1324843310]
  because He loved the Pharisees, but the only way they would have listened, because of the hardness of their hearts, was through Christ's "tough love," so to speak.
  
  I agree. Abba Poeman's quote (above) in comparison with the rebuke that the eternal Word of God used to enlighten the Pharisees: the Pharisees were generating 'twice the sons of hell as themselves', and not the sons of God. They were depriving, not only themselves, but the next generation from the love of God. God knew that the Pharisees were proud. Pride leads to being very narrow-minded towards other people's words, whether they are truth or not. So God used the extra push of 'humiliation' to make a person feel weak and then His truth will be able to get through to them. 'My strength is made perfect in weakness.' In the Pharisees case - from only the recount of the Gospels - it unfortunately didn't get through due to their envy and stubbornness.
  
  [quote author=Christs' servant link=topic=12728.msg149518#msg149518 date=1324896207]
  [quote author=Μιχαὴλ Ἕνρη link=topic=12728.msg149496#msg149496 date=1324843310]
  When Christ admonishes us not to call each other "Raca" or "Fool," I think we are to take it as not to bear any ill will toward others. It's often not the action that He condemns, but the impure heart, and He says in Matthew 12:34, "For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks." In the case of St. Paul, clearly he does not bear any ill will in his heart toward the Galatians or the Corinthians--he is speaking for their wellbeing. And of course, that is true of Christ--Love incarnate--because He loved the Pharisees, but the only way they would have listened, because of the hardness of their hearts, was through Christ's "tough love," so to speak.
  
  Mike,
  
  Thanks for your reply :) You say that it's important "not to bear any ill will toward others", but what about if I call my friend a fool, as a joke, I sure do not mean to insult and bear no ill will towards him, would i still run the risk of condemnation?
  
  
  His Holiness Pope Shenouda III states, "Do not repeatedly rebuke people, and if you have to do it, try not to hurt or mistrust anyone. Do not pick on them for a word or action and avoid making them feel that you stand out as a critic or an enemy to them." - Words of Spiritual Benefit 1-50, Volume I
  
  Why do people think it is okay to insult their friends under the excuse of 'expressing some sort of love' or even as a joke? I believe this is something that has crept into relationships unnoticed. People are often weak towards insults and maybe haven't yet trained how to bear insults from others gladly. This is probably one of the reasons why God loves us with an unconditional love, so we don't get hurt by the One we love - a love we should have toward eachother. Maybe the person we are insulting has had a bad experience with these words and is in the process of trying to overcome them but is now finding it hard with what someone has said. Maybe that word was 'the last straw' to their development/escalation of depression. We do not know.
  
  A saying from the Fathers:
  
  They say that Abba Macarius the Egyptian once went up from Scete to the Nitrian Mountain. As he drew near to a certain place, he said to his disciple, "Pass on a little in front of me." When he had done so there met him a certain heathen priest, who was running along and carrying some wood about the time of noon. That brother cried out to him saying, "O minister to devils, why are you running?" The priest turned round and hit him with many severe blows, and left him with but very little breath remaining in him. He took up his wood and went on his way. When he had gone a little further, the blessed Macarius met him on his journey, and said to him, "May you be helped, O man of labours?" The priest was astonished, and came to him and said, "What fair thing have you seen in me that you should salute me in this gracious fashion?" The old man said to him, "I see that you toil and that you do not know that you are toiling for naught"; then he said to the old man, "At your salutation I also was very sorry, and I learned that you did belong to the Great God. But a wicked monk met me just before you did, and he cursed me, and I hit him even to death." The old man knew that it was his disciple of whom he spoke. The priest laid hold upon the feet of Macarius, saying, "I will not let you go until you make me a monk"; and they came to the place where the brother was lying, and they carried him and brought him to the church of the mountain. Now when the fathers saw the heathen priest with him, they marvelled that he had been converted from the error which he had held. Abba Macarius took him and made him a monk, and through him many of the heathen became Christians. Abba Macarius said, “An evil word makes wicked even those who are good, and a good word makes good even those who are wicked, as it is written." - The Paradise of the Holy Fathers, Vol. II
  
  
  Saint John Chrysostom in his Homilies on the Gospel of Saint Matthew (chapter 5), also covers your concerns of:
  
  1. In Matthew 5:22 Christ preaches, "That whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire"
  
  2. However both in 1 Corinthians 15:36 and Galatians 3:1 St. Paul admonishes the people by calling them "Foolish". So, is it ok to say the word foolish (and the like), if it is for the "edification" of the Body of Christ?
  
  1.
  “And whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council.” By the council in this place He means the tribunal of the Hebrews: and He has mentioned this now, on purpose that He might not seem everywhere to play the stranger and innovator. But this word, “Raca,” is not an expression of a great insolence, but rather of some contempt and slight on the part of the speaker. For as we, giving orders either to our servants, or to any very inferior person, say, “Away with you; you here, tell such an one:” so they who make use of the Syrians’ language say, “Raca,” putting that word instead of “you.” But God, the lover of man, roots up even the least faults, commanding us to behave to one another in seemly manner, and with due respect; and this with a view of destroying hereby also the greater. “But whosoever shall say, you fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.” To many this commandment hath appeared grievous and galling, if for a mere word we are really to pay so great a penalty. And some even say that it was spoken rather hyperbolically. But I fear lest, when we have deceived ourselves with words here, we may in deeds there suffer that extreme punishment.
  
  For wherefore, tell me, does the commandment seem over burdensome? Know you not that most punishments and most sins have their beginning from words? Yea, for by words are blasphemies, and denials are by words, and reviling’s, and reproaches, and perjuries, and bearing false witness. Regard not then it’s being a mere word, but whether it has not much danger, this do you inquire. Are you ignorant that in the season of enmity, when wrath is inflamed, and the soul kindled, even the least thing appears great, and what is not very reproachful is counted intolerable? And often these little things have given birth even to murder, and overthrown whole cities. For just as where friendship is, even grievous things are light, so where enmity lies beneath, very trifles appear intolerable. And however simply a word be spoken, it is surmised to have been spoken with an evil meaning. And as in fire: if there be but a small spark, though thousands of planks lie by, it doth not easily lay hold of them; but if the flame have waxed strong and high, it readily seizes not planks only, but stones, and all materials that fall in its way; and by what things it is usually quenched, by the same it is kindled the more (for some say that at such a time not only wood and tow, and the other combustibles, but even water darted forth upon it does but fan its power the more); so is it also with anger; whatever any one may say, becomes food in a moment for this evil conflagration. All which kind of evils Christ checking beforehand, had condemned first him that is angry without a cause to the judgment, (this being the very reason why He said, “He that is angry shall be in danger of the judgment”); then him that says “Raca,” to the council. But as yet these are no great things; for the punishments are here. Therefore for him who calls “fool”, he has added the fire of hell, now for the first time mentioning the name of hell. For having before discoursed much of the kingdom, not until then did He mention this; implying, that the former comes of His own love and indulgence towards man, this latter of our negligence.
  
  11. And see how He proceeds by little and little in His punishments, all but excusing Himself to you, and signifying that His desire indeed is to threaten nothing of the kind, but that we drag Him on to such denunciations. For observe: “I beg you,” He says, “not be angry for nothing, because you are in danger of the judgment. You have despised the former commandment: see what anger has produced; it has led you on straightway to insult, for you have called your brother ‘Raca.’ Again, I set another punishment, ‘the council.’ If you overlook even this, and proceed to that which is more grievous, I visit you no longer with these finite punishments, but with the undying penalty of hell, lest after this you should break forth even to murder.” For there is nothing, nothing in the world more intolerable than insolence; it is what hath very great power to sting a man’s soul.
  But when the word too which is spoken is in itself more wounding than the insolence, the blaze becomes twice as great. Think it not then a light thing to call another “fool.” For when of that which separates us from the brutes, and by which especially we are human beings, namely, the mind and the understanding,—when of this you have robbed your brother, you have deprived him of all his nobleness.
  
  Let us not then regard the words merely, but realizing the things themselves, and his feeling, let us consider how great a wound is made by this word, and unto how much evil it proceeds. For this cause Paul likewise cast out of the kingdom not only “the adulterous” and “the effeminate,” but “the revilers” also. And with great reason: for the insolent man mars all the beauty of charity, and casts upon his neighbor unnumbered ills, and works up lasting enmities, and tears asunder the members of Christ, and is daily driving away that peace which God so desires: giving much vantage ground unto the devil by his injurious ways, and making him the stronger. Therefore Christ Himself, cutting out the sinews of the devil’s power, brought in this law.
  For indeed He makes much account of love: this being above all things the mother of every good, and the badge of His disciples, and the bond which holds together our whole condition. With reason therefore does He remove with great earnestness the roots and the sources of that hatred which utterly spoils it.
  Think not therefore that these sayings are in any wise hyperbolical, but consider the good done by them, and admire the mildness of these laws. For there is nothing for which God takes so much pains, as this; that we should be united and knit together one with another. Therefore both in His own person, and by His disciples, as well those in the Old, as in the New Testament, He makes so much account of this commandment; and is a severe avenger and punisher of those who despise the duty. For in truth nothing so effectually gives entrance and root to all wickedness, as the taking away of love. Wherefore He also said, “When iniquity abounds, the love of the many shall wax cold.” Thus Cain became his brother’s murderer; thus Esau; thus Joseph’s brethren; thus our unnumbered crimes have come revelling in, this bond being dissevered. You see why He Himself also roots out whatever things injure this, on every side, with great exactness.
  
  14. Let us then be obedient to His sayings; let us not oppose ourselves, nor be contentious; for first of all, even antecedent to their rewards, these injunctions have their pleasure and profit in themselves. And if to the more part they seem to be burdensome, and the trouble which they cause, great; have it in your mind that you are doing it for Christ’s sake, and the pain will be pleasant. For if we maintain this way of reckoning at all times, we shall experience nothing burdensome, but great will be the pleasure we reap from every quarter; for our toil will no longer seem toil, but by how much it is enhanced, so much the sweeter and pleasanter does it grow.
  
  2.
  "See, for instance, what great good was wrought by that anger of Paul, which he felt against the Corinthians, on that well-known occasion; and how, as it delivered them from a grievous pest, so by the same means again he recovered the people of the Galatians likewise, which had fallen aside; and others too beside these. What then is the proper time for anger? When we are not avenging ourselves, but checking others in their lawless freaks, or forcing them to attend in their negligence. And what is the unsuitable time? When we do so as avenging ourselves: which Paul also forbidding, said “Avenge not yourselves, dearly beloved, but rather give place to wrath. “When we are contending for riches: yea, for this has he also taken away, where he says, “Why do you not rather take wrong? Why do you not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?” For as this last sort is superfluous, so is the first necessary and profitable. But most men do the contrary; becoming like wild beasts when they are injured themselves, but remiss and cowardly when they see despite done to another: both which are just opposite to the laws of the Gospel."