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Tenen

andrew8345andrew8345
edited December 1969 in Hymns Discussion
Hey all -

I want to study the hymn of "Tenen" during this fast. It is one of my favorite hymns in tasbeha. I am asking for you to help me.

1) History of the hymn: Who composed it? When was it composed? Did it ever change in the rites? Anything else. . .

2) Meaning:

Verse 1 - "We therefore present an offering and rational worship; We send unto you this day psalmodies for Your glory O our Savior.  Hananiah Azariah and Mishael."

What is meant by rational worship? Why are the names attached to the end of this verse, it seems awkward?

Verse 2 - "When they were raised to take glory in their bodies, the angel came down, stopped the fire and became cool for Hananiah Azariah and Mishael."

What is the first part referring to (When they were raised to take glory in their bodies)? What can we take away from this, spiritually?

Verses 3 & 4 - WHY DOES NO ONE PRAY THESE?

3) Tune: The tune is beautiful and unique. What is its origin?

4) Language: So, this is some combination of Greek and Coptic?

Thanks in advance  :)


Comments

  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    Remenkimi has a great article.
  • andrew8345andrew8345
    [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12682.msg148963#msg148963 date=1323740997]
    Remenkimi has a great article.


    Is it public?
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    it used to be. pm him.
  • egyboyegyboy
    [quote author=Andrew link=topic=12682.msg148962#msg148962 date=1323739959]
    What is the first part referring to (When they were raised to take glory in their bodies)? What can we take away from this, spiritually?


    My priest explained this to us 2 days ago. He said that the glory taken by their bodies is the suffering that was inflicted on them because of their faith. They were glorified in that Christ was in their midst and they were praising God without any harm to their bodies.

    God Bless
    I hope this helped
  • RemnkemiRemnkemi
    I've received multiple requests for the article. I am glad to see a renewed interest in Coptic hymnography. Because I am trying to publish the article, I had to remove it from the internet and I can't give out copies so it can get published. I hope you  all understand.

    I can however give a brief summary.

    The only part of Tenen that is found in any patristic or biblical writings is ;ucian ke tyn logikyn latrian which is verbatim of Romans 12:1 "this is your true and proper worship." Proper is a loose translation. A better translation is "rational". Additionally, the beginning of Romans 12:1, St Paul calls Christians to "present your bodies a living sacrifice". In Tenen, the author used the Coptic word Tenen, not the Greek word παραστῆσαι. So every Psalmody book that has copied Claudius Labib since 1905 that says the first and second verses are all in Greek, the third and the fourth a mix of Greek and Coptic and the fifth is all in Coptic - they are all wrong.

    Regarding the history, there are a few theories. I believe the author is not Sarkis because of the occurance of Sahidic Coptic. I also believe that Bishop Raphael Tuki of the Coptic Catholic church first attempted to "correct" the text in the 18th century in the second, third and fourth verses and Claudius Labib copied in the 20th century. He simply made his own more coherent text instead of using the text we sing. That is why there are two versions of Tenen in our church. But the version we sing has a corroborating Fayummic Coptic version. Therefore, I think Tenen can be dated to the 9th or 10th century, even though we don't have any solid evidence before the 18th century. If it is 9th or 10th century, then it can't be Sarkis since Sarkis lived in the 14th century.

    Because Tenen is the only instance of the Coptic Trisagion (not Greek that we use today), with an addition, it cannot be a Coptic translation of an earlier Greek version.

    Finally, I will tell you the Arabic translation is inaccurate in many parts. Don't always trust the Arabic translators. They did the best they could but they obviously had trouble with the text and did not recognize the bilingual nature of the hymn.

    Hopefully, the full article will be published soon and you can see the translation and text.

    I hope this helped.

     
  • Michael Boutros
    Remnkemi,

    Why do you believe there is the departure from the regular pattern around the word "Azarias" in this hymn? What was/were the author(s) trying to emphasize? I can't imagine it was a random decision.

    Thanks,
    - Michael Boutros
  • imikhailimikhail

    Regarding the history, there are a few theories. I believe the author is not Sarkis because of the occurance of Sahidic Coptic. I also believe that Bishop Raphael Tuki of the Coptic Catholic church first attempted to "correct" the text in the 18th century in the second, third and fourth verses and Claudius Labib copied in the 20th century.


    The hymn is not found in the Kiahk psalmody compiled by Altoukhy in the 1750's nor is it found in the later editions of the same psalmody. The first time it appeared was in the early 1900's through Cladius Labib's edition of both the annual and the Kiahk psalmodies.

    The purpose of my response is only to shed the light on our rituals.
  • RemnkemiRemnkemi
    Michael Boutros,
    I don't know what you mean by "departure from the regular pattern". Are you talking about departure from musical pattern? Or are you talking about linguistics? Or are you talking about the context of the hymn?

    Imikhail,
    I have a copy of Tuki's Tenen. I will find the exact reference and date and report back.
  • RemnkemiRemnkemi
    I finally found Raphael Tuki's Tenen. Page 189. The date of Tuki's Kiahk Psalmody is 1762.
  • yousiegtennisyousiegtennis
    [quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=12682.msg149297#msg149297 date=1324403924]
    I finally found Raphael Tuki's Tenen. Page 189. The date of Tuki's Kiahk Psalmody is 1762.


    That's interesting...in the English translation of Tenen, it says "We therefore present an offering and rational worship"; however, it is translated in Arabic as sacrifice instead of offering...that makes a lot more sense seeing that "thisian" resembles "thuo" ("thusian" conjugated) in Greek...meaning sacrifice.
  • yousiegtennisyousiegtennis
    I also find it interesting that Tuki's version puts "ke" as "kai"...also makes it make much more sense in Greek, amongst other variants of the version that we use...overall, very interesting...
  • imikhailimikhail
    [quote author=GODlovesme link=topic=12682.msg149591#msg149591 date=1325052983]
    I also find it interesting that Tuki's version puts "ke" as "kai"...also makes it make much more sense in Greek, amongst other variants of the version that we use...overall, very interesting...


    Kai was changed to ke in the early 20th century as evident in the first printed khoulagi by Fr Abd Al Messeh Al Baramousy in 1902.
  • imikhailimikhail
    [quote author=GODlovesme link=topic=12682.msg149588#msg149588 date=1325050981]
    [quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=12682.msg149297#msg149297 date=1324403924]
    I finally found Raphael Tuki's Tenen. Page 189. The date of Tuki's Kiahk Psalmody is 1762.


    That's interesting...in the English translation of Tenen, it says "We therefore present an offering and rational worship"; however, it is translated in Arabic as sacrifice instead of offering...that makes a lot more sense seeing that "thisian" resembles "thuo" ("thusian" conjugated) in Greek...meaning sacrifice.


    Rational sacrifice is the proper liturgical expression.
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