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Atheist vs. Coptic Orthodox
Hi there,
I would like to talk to a person about our faith. I was wondering if
someone wouldn't mind telling me some stuff to tell this person. (He is an athiest)
Please nothing Biblical because he doesn't believe in the Bible. (maybe as evidence)
He thinks that the world is created by the BIG BANG.
I would really appreciate if someone can help me because I am a little confused myself.
Thanks and God Bless
I would like to talk to a person about our faith. I was wondering if
someone wouldn't mind telling me some stuff to tell this person. (He is an athiest)
Please nothing Biblical because he doesn't believe in the Bible. (maybe as evidence)
He thinks that the world is created by the BIG BANG.
I would really appreciate if someone can help me because I am a little confused myself.
Thanks and God Bless
Comments
Then ask him to prove to you that love exists, scientifically. Ask for evidence, physical evidence that proves to you that he indeed loves, his wife, mother, father, etc. He may refer to the book "The science of love:
understanding love & its effects on mind & body." or even other supposed studies done to prove the effects of love. Similar studies have been done to show the effects of prayer in an array of religions, all have positive effects and are denounced by atheists as proving nothing, because there is no physical evidence. Therefore if he denies an unseen force, creator of all things, he must also deny the existence of love as they are virtually the same. According to us they are the same.
He will have no argument whatsoever. Even if he does, those same arguments can all be applied to faith. Also check out Alister McGrath's book "A finely tuned universe." or a very well respected scientist Francis Collins.
http://tasbeha.org/content/community/index.php?topic=9557.0
http://tasbeha.org/content/community/index.php?topic=7618.0
remember the best way to tell your friend about Christianity is to live like Jesus
:)
My first entrance towards discussing God, is to try to be exemplary and ambassadorial relative to your own faith. This invariably will present some day and some point a discussion. Leading up to then, pray that God provides that opportunity, and that you will have the inspiration as to what to say.
It is also a time from which you may reflect on your own faith, so that when posed with the aspect to share, you will have understanding and sensitivity from which to speak. I would tell you to log onto Fr. Peter's posts and read all of them. He has a very sensitive approach and example to so many different situations.
The guiding verse from the Gospel of St. Matthew (from the Sermon on the Mount), which is expounded in the Sext hour of the Agbeya, "let your light so shine before all men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father, Who is in Heaven."
Many of you said be an image of God and wait for an opportunity.
There was and is still going to be many an opportunity.
I was just wondering what I might be able and should of had said.
Thanks
in romans chapters 1 to 5, saint paul explains that to those who know nothing of God, God shows the created universe. if you look at the beauty of a thunderstorm, or a mountain, you see God's artwork, put there so that we will wonder how it got there, be amazed at it's beauty and look for Him.
are there any things about our faith that you particularly want to explain better?
ask us and we will try to help.
or you can hang out with him, and pass on any questions he has to a sunday school teacher or other teacher or priest in the church. just tell him 'i don't know how to explain why i believe this, i just feel it's true in my heart, but i know there is a good answer, so i will find out for you'. this way you will also learn.
the biggest difference between Christianity and atheism or any other religion is that Christianity is about forgiveness. we mess up and God forgives us because of Jesus' great sacrifice and suffering and resurrection. so, because we believe this, we forgive other people. this is how we can love people who hurt us.
this is how i became a Christian. my parents (who used to be athiests) became Christians and their lives changed. they showed love and forgiveness instead of shouting and demanding that things be done their way and arguing with each other.
i (aged 5) asked my mum what had changed and she told me simply (like i did above) about Jesus' death and resurrection and how we should say sorry to God for the bad things we do and how He forgives us and takes the bad feelings away and gives us love. i believed the same evening, and my life started to change.
Hi there,
I would like to talk to a person about our faith. I was wondering if
someone wouldn't mind telling me some stuff to tell this person. (He is an athiest)
Please nothing Biblical because he doesn't believe in the Bible. (maybe as evidence)
He thinks that the world is created by the BIG BANG.
I would really appreciate if someone can help me because I am a little confused myself.
Thanks and God Bless
The world did start with the Big Bang. But what was before the Big bang? Did you know that the big bang theory states that TIME itself was created at the big bang? And that the only explanation for the Big bang theory actually taking place is that something beyond space, time, and matter was responsible for the big bang... If he wants to get all scientific let him read any books by Dr. Hugh Ross, an Astrophysicist who is a hardcore Christian. You can youtube his videos, shows how the Bible fits in with Science perfectly.
It may help guide me to answer you, I hope.
GBU
Hopes this helps.
Thanks
The world did start with the Big Bang. But what was before the Big bang? Did you know that the big bang theory states that TIME itself was created at the big bang? And that the only explanation for the Big bang theory actually taking place is that something beyond space, time, and matter was responsible for the big bang... If he wants to get all scientific let him read any books by Dr. Hugh Ross, an Astrophysicist who is a hardcore Christian. You can youtube his videos, shows how the Bible fits in with Science perfectly.
That's a very good point. I also accept the Big Bang theory as a true indication of how the universe started, as does my Sunday School teacher and my parish priest. It is in fact one of the most startling scientific confirmations that the Universe had a beginning as the Bible has contended all along. There is no reason for us to oppose it - in fact, we should be holding that idea up as one of the chief pieces of evidence in support of our faith that the world has a supernatural origin.
God bless and PFM
Hello my brother Ioannes. (Correct me if I am wrong) What if he/she gives the evidence in a biochemical sense? Such as, images received by the brain will stimulate certain hormons and chemicals to be released, that will illustrate the sensation of "love". Wouldn't that "prove" that love exists? He/she might also argue that the reason prayer gives comfort is because it's false hope, such as political leader promising the general public prosperity and freedom. I totally agree though with the book's that you referenced. Thank you for your time my brother, God bless. Please pray for me.
This has also been proven in prayer, meditation, and "speaking in tongues" so they would ALSO have to accept those scientific results as well.
Here is an Awesome sermons by Abona double A (Abona Anthony Messeh)
http://orthodoxsermons.org/sermons/back-basics-part-2-1
Highly recommend everyone to watch. Just click on ORIGINAL next to download original video.
Ebnyasoo3
Nevertheless big bang had to have a beginning, even if it is thought of as repeating cycles, i.e. so when did the very 1st big bang occur? This is misleading because they claim it was caused or triggered by a fluctuation (imbalance) of quanta. So these quanta had to exist for this to occur. It is thus a never ending story (time starts and a big bang then the universe expands then collapses then time stops, then again ...) to evade the inevitable notion of an Omnipotent creator.
So for one who believes in the big bang, the very 1st thing that was there to cause it had to exist - where did it come from? Either they'll have to invent a theory to cover this or stop asking question and say they don't know while affirm it existed or that it came magically from 'nothing' (a nada!!) or there is a Creator who started the whole thing. It is not a very strong argument because it makes God as only the initiator of the big bang, while in the Bible God describes to us how He created all things: "In the beginning God..." and how all things are governed by Him, and how will they end - all for a divine purpose. That is why you'd better stick to the word of God as given to us in the Bible, even if the listener denies it - otherwise it will be very difficult to continue to explain everything till you reach to Christianity.
You must have been studying biology and chemistry at high school. You can start by understanding well yourself this 1 to 12 parts video clips. If you have a question please tell me in what clip and at what minute:sec and I'll try to answer you. After that you'd watch it with the person you mentioned to discuss it with him and see if he's contemplating the idea of a Creator. This is just the 1st step, the surface or the 1st layer of logical thinking. Just a reminder that this is not your school curriculum so do not neglect your studies!
It's about "intelligent design":
http://www.youtube.com/user/IllustraMedia#g/c/9F238BF1EB056938
Later on if he becomes interested or asks good questions let me know and I'll try to send you deeper and more interesting links. For your information, the main theme of this approach is what is known as the updated very strong "Watchmaker argument". It is useful to help the science oriented atheists. Please feedback when you can.
Please do not be offended by his reactions as it may not work if he's not convinced, stubborn or even a hypocrite! He will also ask elsewhere and come back the next day with a different opinion, etc. It's not easy so pray before every step, God's Will be done.
GBU
Very lucid.
Comets - Not What We Expected
http://www.youtube.com/user/mnemeth1#g/c/A028C644C0911272
Yet this does not validate the big bang.
* Clips criticizing the big bang:
New discovery invalidates the big bang (short)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmyR4MZrtDY
The big bang never happened (short)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUzvJq3yK98
The big bang is wrong (short)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KdKOKw03Sk
* The following is a fully scientific comprehensive lecture on the subject.
Hubble bubble - Big Bang in trouble
http://www.youtube.com/user/vdofam#g/c/270A014EEA63E595
It also shows how bias in the scientific community leads to the neglect of very important scientific research findings.
GBU
I just created for dinner an almond butter and mango jam sandwich. I ate it. Thank you God for this simple meal. Now I can go to sleep.
Here's my thought, God created the Universe and all that is therein, then we decided to uncreate God. However, no matter how much we try to get rid of Him, He is still there. Everything in the Universe reminds us of Him. He is still around, and one day we will not be alive on earth, whether or not we believed in Him. So much for uncreation.
I just created for dinner an almond butter and mango jam sandwich. I ate it. Thank you God for this simple meal. Now I can go to sleep.
ok this is a little off topic but where' you get mango jam!!! and can i have some!!!!
You don't have fresh mango?
GBU
The naturalism doctrine that currently guides scientific research negates God's presence, I think any new alternative hypotheses to the big bang one will always try to model the universe as infinite (with time also infinite, i.e. eternal), denying to God His divine intervention and use all physics and maths at that - but they will never be able to explain how or when did matter magically appear in the universe.
We Christians believe that only God is able to create matter by the power of His Word.
GBU
If God is able to create matter from nothing then He can form that matter entirely as he pleases.
Science is always unable to say that matter came from nothing, or rather it makes even the nothing into a something so as to be able to deny any space for God.
I think people here have to face the fact that atheistic scientists will ALWAYS want to use science to deny God a place, any place, and to speak of God as Creator even in a most limited sense is always to deny such science.
1 Corinthians 3:19-20 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. (20) And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
This does not mean that all science is foolishness, but it does mean that all those who set science up as the measure by which God's revelation must be measured, all those who think that science has the answers to the important questions, all those like Dawkins and Hawking, are foolish, even when they think they are the wisest of men.
Father Peter
I am not a fan of Fr. Anthony. I heard a sermon of his before I was baptized and I was actually more confused, and offended. It since has been taken off or edited. Plus I think he had alot to do with that stupid red book full of protestant hymns.
He is kind of risky with his sermons, which is why I love him. They really challenge you. Out of curiosity, what about his sermon offended you?
[quote author=Ioannes link=topic=9818.msg120361#msg120361 date=1286511270]
I am not a fan of Fr. Anthony. I heard a sermon of his before I was baptized and I was actually more confused, and offended. It since has been taken off or edited. Plus I think he had alot to do with that stupid red book full of protestant hymns.
He is kind of risky with his sermons, which is why I love him. They really challenge you. Out of curiosity, what about his sermon offended you?
I don't like jokes during sermons, and especially when they are about the Orthodox. I cannot find the sermon anymore but he made a joke that the Orthodox think they are the only ones going to heaven. At first I agreed because we do not know exactly how God will judge, and I was thinking of those who may have never heard the Gospel, which is addressed by St Paul in Romans 2. But he was speaking of other protestants and basically equated them with Orthodoxy, which to me is not right at all. However, the sermon seems to have either been edited or removed from the website so he may have been "talked to" about it.
I mean, there certainly may be protestants who do go to heaven, I don't know, but saying one can attain salvation outside of Orthodoxy is an incorrect teaching. But, I am somewhat of a zealot at times and am much more old school and traditional than most.
But it seems to me that it is not sound. If an Orthodox clergyman thinks that all will be saved 'because of' their own heterodox and heretical beliefs then he must argue that, and his argument must be based on the Fathers an Scripture or it should be rejected, whoever he is. Using a 'joke' is merely a device to exclude a proper argument. Anyone who disagrees is made to appear as if they are narrow and have no sense of humour at the least.
My own understanding is that much of the knowledge we wish of the state of others after death is a mystery and will remain a mystery to us. I believe that many of those who are outside the formal bounds of Orthodoxy nevertheless belong to Christ, at least in the manner that an unbaptized catechumen belongs to Christ. I believe that we must always be aware of the mercy of God and our own unworthiness.
That being so, a 'joke' which asserts that everyone who calls themselves a Christian must as a matter of course be found in heaven, and that the Orthodox are very wrong and narrow in their views should not surely be found on the lips of an Orthodox clergyman. If that is his view he must make the argument before his peers and the Fathers. This 'joke' is often used in the context of trying to show that everyone is OK whatever they believe, I don't think that is true at all.
I have heard this 'joke' used by other clergy and have not found it appropriate. It is of course a universal 'joke' and when I was in the Brethren we also used it.
But it seems to me that it is not sound. If an Orthodox clergyman thinks that all will be saved 'because of' their own heterodox and heretical beliefs then he must argue that, and his argument must be based on the Fathers an Scripture or it should be rejected, whoever he is. Using a 'joke' is merely a device to exclude a proper argument. Anyone who disagrees is made to appear as if they are narrow and have no sense of humour at the least.
My own understanding is that much of the knowledge we wish of the state of others after death is a mystery and will remain a mystery to us. I believe that many of those who are outside the formal bounds of Orthodoxy nevertheless belong to Christ, at least in the manner that an unbaptized catechumen belongs to Christ. I believe that we must always be aware of the mercy of God and our own unworthiness.
That being so, a 'joke' which asserts that everyone who calls themselves a Christian must as a matter of course be found in heaven, and that the Orthodox are very wrong and narrow in their views should not surely be found on the lips of an Orthodox clergyman. If that is his view he must make the argument before his peers and the Fathers. This 'joke' is often used in the context of trying to show that everyone is OK whatever they believe, I don't think that is true at all.
Unfortunately, Fr. Peter's opinion isn't a one-off. Many other members of the Orthodox clergy have been offended by such sermons, and share his opinion. I'm talking at the Bishopric level.
If ever the Church does want to unite with Protestants or reach out to them, i think abouna "double a" can have a role to play... not sure.
I really think someone with Fr. Peter's background ought to be involved in that, to say the least!
Concerning the Big Bang theory, i would like to draw your attention to one thing:
Dawkins was on a committee that oversaw the science curriculum that is taught in schools in the UK. I was involved in this field for a brief period of time (due to a small project I was working on), and it was clear to me that he was pushing for his own agenda, rather than the advancement of truth, it was the advancement of his own beliefs or logic.
It amazes me that Dawkins, a professor at Oxford, never had the humility nor intelligence to ask anyone of his colleagues at the Theological Schools within the same University, about his doubts. His understanding of soteriology is totally incorrect, and one would have thought that before spurting out such garbage or inaccuracies on how we are saved, he would have at least got his facts straight by asking a colleague.
Agreed, Metropolitan Kallistos Ware was no longer teaching there, but he could have still asked him, or anyone else.
Here is my favorite argument. Ask him if he is married, if he loves his wife, or if he loves his mother. Most likely he will reply quickly with a yes.
Then ask him to prove to you that love exists, scientifically. Ask for evidence, physical evidence that proves to you that he indeed loves, his wife, mother, father, etc. He may refer to the book "The science of love:
understanding love & its effects on mind & body." or even other supposed studies done to prove the effects of love. Similar studies have been done to show the effects of prayer in an array of religions, all have positive effects and are denounced by atheists as proving nothing, because there is no physical evidence. Therefore if he denies an unseen force, creator of all things, he must also deny the existence of love as they are virtually the same. According to us they are the same.
He will have no argument whatsoever. Even if he does, those same arguments can all be applied to faith. Also check out Alister McGrath's book "A finely tuned universe." or a very well respected scientist Francis Collins.
Ask an atheist if they believe in the phrase: "What goes around, comes around"
There's no scientific evidence to prove this. What makes them believe that what you do to others will happen to you? How are they so sure? Yet, I know many atheists who believe in this. Its pure belief, and there's nothing to prove it either.
I could even continue and say that if they believe this theory, then what if someone isn't punished for something they've done on earth to someone else, where then is the justice?