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Coptic Catholics
I always thought that the Coptic Catholics looked like this...
But now look at this :
Seems familiar it looks exactly like our Orthodox Church but its Roman Catholic!!!
I know the Coptic Church has been developing relations with the Latins but not like this..
Some one told me the Latins always mimic each cultures Churches..
Like in America the Catholic Churches look Protestant
In Egypt they look Coptic in every thing
etc.
But now look at this :
Seems familiar it looks exactly like our Orthodox Church but its Roman Catholic!!!
I know the Coptic Church has been developing relations with the Latins but not like this..
Some one told me the Latins always mimic each cultures Churches..
Like in America the Catholic Churches look Protestant
In Egypt they look Coptic in every thing
etc.
Comments
I don't think this is an Orthodox Priest because of the neatness of his beard and his clothes under his tonia but their Fraction is almost identical to ours. I think this is Holy Thursday's.
Evlogimenos:
Is it because Egyptians wont accept the foreign tradition?
The catholic church in the east tries to be an instance of the local christian community but in communion with rome. It is nit necessary to be latin to be catholic.
Father Peter, I find this information rather disturbing. I never knew this was the case with the Coptic Catholic Church. Am I confusing culture with tradition?
I always thought that our way of dress, our hymns, tabernacle, badrasheen, etc., are for us as Coptic Orthodox and weren't necessarily a cultural thing but moreso a religious tradition that has Coptic roots?
If they dress like us, why don't they just accept our dogma and faith and become orthodox? Easier said than done, I know...but why dress like us if you aren't one of us? This reminds me of Father Maximus Youhanna...
dear rony, please write " 'father' maximus' ", not "father maximus"!
sorry, I meant "father" maximus. :)
In case you had any doubts, look at this video from the same Fr. Yohanna Fawzy from the other link. They are "consecrating" an altar in Naga Razeek, Assuit. Notice all the priests, deacons and nuns consecrating the altar and not the bishop while the deacons are singing Khen Evran. It's sad actually. Although I am not a psychologist or anthropological psychologist, I would diagnosis the Coptic Catholic Church with dissociative fugue disorder. It is defined as "physical desertion of familiar surroundings and experience of impaired recall of the past. This may lead to confusion about actual identity and the assumption of a new identity" The Coptic Catholics have deserted any Roman familiarity, experienced no recall of their own past, assumed the Coptic Orthodox identity and now are slightly deserting Coptic Orthodox identity for something else (or something odd). You'll see what I mean in this video.
I think you will find the Bishop was the one at the start of the Video with the White Hat, as that is the vestments of the Eastern Rite Catholics. I think he had already concecrated the altar, as to what then the other people are doing, I have no idea.
1. Bribe some members to convert to the Roman banner.
2. Make them elevated ranks in the church.
3. Use the appearance of the indigenous church to make it illusory.
4. By making the appearance regular and normal, it is easy to allow for conversion of the dumb-dumb natives.
5. Make it a fad to follow the "cool pope" from Rome.
Comments:
1. In the video with the "altar consecration", the man in the cape and the white veiled cap is a bishop.
2. Most of their clergy in Egypt are not native Egyptians, but rather imported Syrians and Lebanese. You can detect
their accent in their pronounciation of the Arabic and Coptic. Their "patriarch" in Alexandria is not Egyptian.
3. If you look at their numbers as congregants, they are very small, although they pretend to be much larger in number.
4. A cheap and unacceptable immitation of the venerable Church of Alexandria, the Coptic Orthodox Church.
5. In the first video, it was a concelebration utilizing elements of the "Latin" rite engrained with the "Eastern Coptic" rite (ie, a hybrid). Generally, the Coptic Catholics utilize the "Eastern Rite appearance" to help with the charade.
What upsets me the most is how they butchered Eflogimenos. If you're going to copy an ancient tradition, changing the tune doesn't make it uniquely yours.
And above all, they're using grammatically incorrect Coptic. It's just gets under my skin.
The sad part is some Egyptians abandon their roots and change their skins to adopt a foreign faith.
I am not attacking their use of the Coptic Rites. I am attacking its usage for the sake of proselytizing.
What we are doing is not attacking, but in my humble opinion, defending our faith. Our rites belong to the Coptic Orthodox Church; Furthermore the Church belongs God. Therefore; These rites don't even belong to us as Coptics, but belong ultimately to our God; For with them, we re-connect with Him on all levels.
We have our reconnection with God, why take some of it and turn it into something else for the Coptic Catholic's benefit? Why not use our reconnection as is? It is akin to plagerism where the plagerist (?) steals authentic work from someone else and claims it to be his own though, his own idea.
This is not the case. Whose to say the idea of our rites was created by man? Whose to say that it was not God Himself who revealed to us what is an acceptable form of sacrifice to Him? Whose to say that it was God Himself who planted that idea of worship in our Early Church Father's heads?!
Our Church, throughout the centuries has been persecuted and we can survive all through Christ who strengthens us; But this type of imitation is not flattery; It is mimickery.
They did it with most orthodox churches. It is, in my opinion, a cheap attempt at conversion. It's just a matter of a Christian version of imperialism. Let's go to Egypt, do what they do, and pay tribute to Rome.
As Remnkemi said, they have no identity of their own. Our Coptic identity is dear to us, and I would rather not see it used by schismatics for a petty attempt at converting the people.
ReturnOrthodoxy
I can well identify with ILSM on this one, although I am a little more discontent with the fact that they just barge in with their own doctrines such as the Filioque, and such crazy ideologies as the primacy of the pope of Rome, and then they just take our rights. Our fathers fought for our church's faith. Our liturgies are testimonies to that identity. We are the Orthodox church of Alexandria. Our rights are our identity, and for someone to bring their false ideologies, and claim our identity genuinely annoys me. It all seems too...catholic?
They did it with most orthodox churches. It is, in my opinion, a cheap attempt at conversion. It's just a matter of a Christian version of imperialism. Let's go to Egypt, do what they do, and pay tribute to Rome.
As Remnkemi said, they have no identity of their own. Our Coptic identity is dear to us, and I would rather not see it used by schismatics for a petty attempt at converting the people.
ReturnOrthodoxy
Amen, ReturnOrthodoxy.
I believe adopting local culture is a good thing in evangelizing so long as it does not interfere with the faith.
By allowing the Copts to use their rites while following Rome is an acknowledgement of Rome of the authenticity of the Coptic rite. We should not cry about this rather use it to educate the ignorant of their real roots.
By allowing the Copts to use their rites while following Rome is an acknowledgement of Rome of the authenticity of the Coptic rite. We should not cry about this rather use it to educate the ignorant of their real roots.
Since when do we crave for or care about Rome's stamp of approval about the "authenticity of the Coptic rite?"
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12937.msg152314#msg152314 date=1329841361]
By allowing the Copts to use their rites while following Rome is an acknowledgement of Rome of the authenticity of the Coptic rite. We should not cry about this rather use it to educate the ignorant of their real roots.
Since when do we crave for or care about Rome's stamp of approval about the "authenticity of the Coptic rite?"
Amen. The only stamp we need is the mercy of our God.
I understand very much what you are saying, but I still must disagree. I think the adoption ofmculture is fine. If they came, and had an Arabic church with it's own identity, no one would be complaining. But they took an already existing culture, disregarded anything that had to do with the culture, and did their own thing with it. I think that is what is annoying. The fact that they had little regard for what our rites mean to us as Copts.
Our fathers died for our faith, and the rites that we have now reflect the struggle of our church. It is unfair for someone to ignore that. They shared nothing in the struggle of the Coptic Church (except maybe in persecuting it) and then they come and copy us? That is disrespect.
As for Rome acknowledging the authenticity of the Coptic Church, it is in my opinion worthless. We need nothing from men (as was well said before) let alone Rome. I have little tolerance for the Catholic church's imperialist ideology, and when it hits the Coptic Church, it makes me more intolerant to their already evident plan.
It was wrong of them to do what they did. They did not come preaching a correct theology or philosophy (because they don't have such), but they came, candidly, dressed like the Copts (so that the poor uneducated people of Egypt had no real idea as to what was happening) and made them schismatics.
It's nothing more than role play to them.
ReturnOrthodoxy
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12937.msg152314#msg152314 date=1329841361]
By allowing the Copts to use their rites while following Rome is an acknowledgement of Rome of the authenticity of the Coptic rite. We should not cry about this rather use it to educate the ignorant of their real roots.
Since when do we crave for or care about Rome's stamp of approval about the "authenticity of the Coptic rite?"
That is not what I meant.
What I meant is that those Copts who chose to follow Rome would acknowledge the fallacy of their conversion; using a rite that is not Rome's, yet approved by Rome, while following a different faith that is rooted within the rite they are using.
Father Peter
I would rather folk didn't criticise the Catholic Church as soon as Lent begins. It is a distraction from considering our own sins and weaknesses.
Father Peter
You are absolutely right, Father. Forgive me my weakness all, for I am a chief sinner.