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What's next for us?
What's next for us?
The revolution of a minority has been hijacked by a majority that I'm pretty sure (whether they were Christian or Muslim) didn't give their lives to see run Egypt.
The departure of His Holiness comes at a bleak time for us.
The imam, Wagdi Ghoneim released a scathing attack on his holiness just after the news of His passing away emerged. I cannot repeat what was said, it is VERY upsetting - but what worries me is the audacity with which Ghoneim could spew out such hateful comments - as if now he is immune from any repercussions given the nature of our Islamized parliament.
The salafists walked out of parliament during a 1 minute silence in respect for our Pope.
Where does this leave us?
Egypt is suffering financially, and all that is bothering the people's assembly and their ministers is our religion? That's the priority for them?
The west have sold their own religion, and its pretty hard right now for them even to be Christians in a Christian denominated country. Where is "home" for us?
I could have called Egypt "my home" when people like Wagdi Ghoniem were a minority. But check him out on FB - despite attacking our pontiff, he still has 125,000 likes.
What's next for us?? Where do we go?
I work with a muslim guy who didn't even want to tell me he is sorry the passing away of our pontiff because he hates him.
What must it be like in Egypt??
The revolution of a minority has been hijacked by a majority that I'm pretty sure (whether they were Christian or Muslim) didn't give their lives to see run Egypt.
The departure of His Holiness comes at a bleak time for us.
The imam, Wagdi Ghoneim released a scathing attack on his holiness just after the news of His passing away emerged. I cannot repeat what was said, it is VERY upsetting - but what worries me is the audacity with which Ghoneim could spew out such hateful comments - as if now he is immune from any repercussions given the nature of our Islamized parliament.
The salafists walked out of parliament during a 1 minute silence in respect for our Pope.
Where does this leave us?
Egypt is suffering financially, and all that is bothering the people's assembly and their ministers is our religion? That's the priority for them?
The west have sold their own religion, and its pretty hard right now for them even to be Christians in a Christian denominated country. Where is "home" for us?
I could have called Egypt "my home" when people like Wagdi Ghoniem were a minority. But check him out on FB - despite attacking our pontiff, he still has 125,000 likes.
What's next for us?? Where do we go?
I work with a muslim guy who didn't even want to tell me he is sorry the passing away of our pontiff because he hates him.
What must it be like in Egypt??
Comments
I will tell you Sasi--I told you so.
There was no Revolution.
The Christians were/are naive.
There are no elections.
The issues, at hand, are our fault not due to the Islamic majority.
I believe the funeral service and the conduct of the people is expressive of the selfish attitude and disregard for the overall good. People trampling the altar, trying to be the "first", seeking bragging rights, pushing and shoving the clergy including the two main Patriarchs attending: Mor Ignatius Zakka I Iwas (recovering from several strokes) and Abuna Paulos, people draped over the choir area like a playground, etc.
I was disgusted by the whole affair. It was not at all an expression of love, or culture, as some will most surely interject. It was an expression of pure selfishness. I thought the walking and talking during the Liturgy--abominable. An Egyptian just wants to be important, and they don't realize that they are not in the slightest.
I think we need to learn how to be human beings first, then we can deal with the issues at hand.
I didn't see one deacon doing his job.
It is because the deacons did not do their job that today was a mess. It was a chance to show the world that we are Coptics and not slaves of our own desire to step on others. It was a chance to show the beauty of the Coptic Church and heritage, that although we do not have the resources of Rome, Moscow, or Constantinople, we can raise our heads high as being descendants of St. Mark. In the end, we did not only shame Pope Shenouda but we shamed St. Mark. We did not just shame St. Mark, we shamed the Master--Himself.
The reason why Pope Shenouda was honored so much, was that he was with the full dignity of being a descendant of St. Mark, an epitome of being a Coptic, and a representation of the holiness of being a Christian.
The only person to blame is in the mirror.
I agree: Pray.
I will tell you Sasi--I told you so.
There was no Revolution.
The Christians were/are naive.
There are no elections.
The issues, at hand, are our fault not due to the Islamic majority.
I believe the funeral service and the conduct of the people is expressive of the selfish attitude and disregard for the overall good. People trampling the altar, trying to be the "first", seeking bragging rights, pushing and shoving the clergy including the two main Patriarchs attending: Mor Ignatius Zakka I Iwas (recovering from several strokes) and Abuna Paulos, people draped over the choir area like a playground, etc.
I was disgusted by the whole affair. It was not at all an expression of love, or culture, as some will most surely interject. It was an expression of pure selfishness. I thought the walking and talking during the Liturgy--abominable. An Egyptian just wants to be important, and they don't realize that they are not in the slightest.
I think we need to learn how to be human beings first, then we can deal with the issues at hand.
I didn't see one deacon doing his job.
It is because the deacons did not do their job that today was a mess. It was a chance to show the world that we are Coptics and not slaves of our own desire to step on others. It was a chance to show the beauty of the Coptic Church and heritage, that although we do not have the resources of Rome, Moscow, or Constantinople, we can raise our heads high as being descendants of St. Mark. In the end, we did not only shame Pope Shenouda but we shamed St. Mark. We did not just shame St. Mark, we shamed the Master--Himself.
The reason why Pope Shenouda was honored so much, was that he was with the full dignity of being a descendant of St. Mark, an epitome of being a Coptic, and a representation of the holiness of being a Christian.
The only person to blame is in the mirror.
Why are the Bishops pushing people?
Question: Does anyone know who the bishop of anba pishoy monastery is?
Thanks.
Last year's Covenant Thursday at my own parish was a complete disaster and was in many ways very similar to the funeral.
Completely disrespectful.
Lol clearly!
Question: Does anyone know who the bishop of anba pishoy monastery is?
Thanks.
I believe it is HG Biship Sarabamon.
The reason why Covenant Thursday was a disaster, depite not being there at your parish, was that the deacons did not do their job and they were party to the discord and chaos.
The reason why the Cathedral was a disaster, despite not being there, yet witnessing by television, was that the deacons did not do their job and they were party to the discord and chaos.
Before someone says "make constructive comments", here's what should have happened on diaconate basis (that does not require clerical permission): stand up straight, don't hold a mobile phone or a camera, don't talk to the guy next to you, stand as brothers shoulder to shoulder, hold arms together, lead the people, be an example of dignity, don't keep walking back and forth so you can wave to mommy on Aghapy TV or CTV, put on a proper tunic, shave, shower, don't put your hand on the altar, don't put your shoes on the altar, don't put your bag on the altar.
I hate to tell you all that this happens in every church, not just at the Cathedral yesterday.
I forgot: don't make up Excel spreadsheets for responses whilst forgetting how to make the sign of the Cross or to show reverence to the altar.
I personally believe the Order of the Diaconate should be removed. If they are not doing their service or ministry they should be replaced. I believe the Muslim Brotherhood would do a better job than the pathetic display of the diaconate that happened before the world.
Even the muslim has more respect for his prayers than the Coptic. They don't hold their mobile phones as they are "praying". They don't walk around as they are "praying". They don't ask around, please abouna: 'can I say this response because I spent hours learning it and I'm hoping I can become popular'. You see them doing their bows and annunciations together. There is no multitude of microphones or "playing for the house" mentality. There is no smiling and chatting in between the words. There is no hand waving. Come on people, act like people, not like...
I would have chosen a different word from "circus", but my mommy won't let me use that word in public or on this forum.
I agree with you, the deacons weren't doing their jobs at all. But you also have to take the circumstances into consideration. it was a hard time for everyone. These are deacons that are used seeing Pope Shenouda all the time. Even Ibrahim Ayad and his son couldn't contain themselves. The whole thing was complete chaos, and Deacons are humans too. They can only do so much. We are talking hundreds of thousands of Egyptians coming to see the pope. We can never really expect Egyptians to have any sort of organization, whatsoever.
Also, it wasn't just deacons. The monks were acting crazy during the burial. The one monk stood on top of the coffin.
But I do agree with you. It was completely disrespectful of H.H. They were tossing the coffin around like it was a toy. It disgusted me. If someone was alive in the coffin, I'm sure he would have died by the time he got to the burial.
ILSM,
I agree with you, the deacons weren't doing their jobs at all. But you also have to take the circumstances into consideration. it was a hard time for everyone. These are deacons that are used seeing Pope Shenouda all the time. Even Ibrahim Ayad and his son couldn't contain themselves. The whole thing was complete chaos, and Deacons are humans too. They can only do so much. We are talking hundreds of thousands of Egyptians coming to see the pope. We can never really expect Egyptians to have any sort of organization, whatsoever.
Also, it wasn't just deacons. The monks were acting crazy during the burial. The one monk stood on top of the coffin.
But I do agree with you. It was completely disrespectful of H.H. They were tossing the coffin around like it was a toy. It disgusted me. If someone was alive in the coffin, I'm sure he would have died by the time he got to the burial.
I would either duck or delete that post before ILSM signs on. Just a friendly warning.
[quote author=peter_saad link=topic=13057.msg153439#msg153439 date=1332333907]
ILSM,
I agree with you, the deacons weren't doing their jobs at all. But you also have to take the circumstances into consideration. it was a hard time for everyone. These are deacons that are used seeing Pope Shenouda all the time. Even Ibrahim Ayad and his son couldn't contain themselves. The whole thing was complete chaos, and Deacons are humans too. They can only do so much. We are talking hundreds of thousands of Egyptians coming to see the pope. We can never really expect Egyptians to have any sort of organization, whatsoever.
Also, it wasn't just deacons. The monks were acting crazy during the burial. The one monk stood on top of the coffin.
But I do agree with you. It was completely disrespectful of H.H. They were tossing the coffin around like it was a toy. It disgusted me. If someone was alive in the coffin, I'm sure he would have died by the time he got to the burial.
I would either duck or delete that post before ILSM signs on. Just a friendly warning.
Why?
[quote author=peter_saad link=topic=13057.msg153442#msg153442 date=1332334586]
[quote author=TITL link=topic=13057.msg153441#msg153441 date=1332334198]
[quote author=peter_saad link=topic=13057.msg153439#msg153439 date=1332333907]
ILSM,
I agree with you, the deacons weren't doing their jobs at all. But you also have to take the circumstances into consideration. it was a hard time for everyone. These are deacons that are used seeing Pope Shenouda all the time. Even Ibrahim Ayad and his son couldn't contain themselves. The whole thing was complete chaos, and Deacons are humans too. They can only do so much. We are talking hundreds of thousands of Egyptians coming to see the pope. We can never really expect Egyptians to have any sort of organization, whatsoever.
Also, it wasn't just deacons. The monks were acting crazy during the burial. The one monk stood on top of the coffin.
But I do agree with you. It was completely disrespectful of H.H. They were tossing the coffin around like it was a toy. It disgusted me. If someone was alive in the coffin, I'm sure he would have died by the time he got to the burial.
I would either duck or delete that post before ILSM signs on. Just a friendly warning.
Why?
Because he'll tell you that the Israelites were more dignified when they carried Joseph's bones out of Egypt. And since you're a deacon, he's going to say it a little nastier than that.
Instead of saying "they can only do so much" or "we're talking about thousands of Egyptians" or "we can never really expect from them", you should say "I agree with you ILSM". You'll be a happier person, trust me.
There will be no excuses before the Almighty.
I wasn't talking about the Cathedral Choir.
CIA and his son conducted themselves and contained themselves in a dignified and expected fashion. A funeral of the level of His Holiness did not need to be such a shameful display.
You mean their wasn't fervor at the death of Pope John Paul II.
I don't want to hear the culture excuse. If our people know how to attend graduations, professional functions, etc without acting like baboons, then the same should be possible at the funeral of His Holiness.
What is next for us?...we will be paying more penalties for our inability to organize, function, and live in the spirit that God asks of us. We should not complain when we get abused, slapped around, and persecuted...we ask for it.
They (the muslims) treat us like domestic animals (usually I use the term pets) because we act like it.
They also should have done a private burial with only the Bishops at night or something and recorded it. Everyone should have gone home and out of the streets and then they should have buried him. I started screaming at the computer screen when I saw everyone surrounding the car the coffin was in. I became very angry.
As far as I can tell, there has never been a private funeral for any patriarch, bishop or priest in the Coptic Church. Would you want someone to bury your father without letting you attend?
Well not the funeral part. As I said for the funeral, they should have only given access to the Chorus and Sanctuary to Clergy instead of having them sit with the congregation.
And for the burial, if there was that much disrespect for the Holy body, yes
As far as I can tell, there has never been a private funeral for any patriarch, bishop or priest in the Coptic Church. Would you want someone to bury your father without letting you attend?
I would rather they have a private funeral, burial, and everything than all of this chaos and disrespect to God's house and H.H body.
Deacons (proper deacons) carry out the bidding of the bishops. Bishops should not have to deal with all of these minute details.
In time of emergency, the greater character should surface...full submission to your leader is necessary to maintain calm and control.
1. pharaoh complex
2. trying to be the number #1
3. first in gossip
4. chaos
5. trying to look important in an otherwise pathetic existence
6. adding to situations and faking miracles
7. making up miracles
8. trying to change history
9. making up history
10. pretending to know the pope
11. pretending to know Christ
As a note: Coptics do not do any of the above.
Very few Coptics left. We have been taken over by "egyptianism".
have you guys heard about the 5 or so people that died while visiting H.H.'s tomb in the monastery? my parents heard of it from Christiandogma and told me. i was completely disgusted at how barbaric people can actually be. 5 lives were lost just from visiting the pope, that's not to mention the other 3 that died during the actual funeral.
There was another 8 that died i believe for the same reason on Sunday.
It is eventually going to happen, and has happened in the parish churches, where people get hurt as a result of selfishness and anarchy.
Obviously it was not caring about the pope, but of being a "first".
Check out the churches in this coming Hosanna Sunday. They are madhouses with anarchists and yokels. How many people are going to walk in with scissors, which has poked people, been sat on with deleterious effect, to sit and weave palms during the Liturgy. That's because the person rationalizes that the god of palm sunday is different from the god of the regular sunday, and certainly different from the god of the resurrection.
Actually, I'm surprised that the number was not a multiple of 100.
I think ILSM's comments are more than justified; they are necessary. The God of palm Sunday, is the God of last Wednesday night. The God watching you do metanias in the altar on good Friday is the same one who sees you do it in your room. we often make a hype out of our own personal greed. Those people who killed the 8 (and yes..."killed") people will be judged before God as murderers because they put their own will and desire to be first over the life of their fellow man. It is a gross misunderstanding of the Bible and it's command.
As for this Palm Sunday, in my home church, I had been lobbying with Abouna to not allow public sales of palms. The church is not a basket weaving, donkey making sweat shop. It is distracting, foolish, and not conducive to true spirituality, but rather to hype.
I have been very saddened by people's greed which they often disguise as being love of God, or zeal. It must come to an end. We need to stop being greedy and superstitious.
ILSM, I'm with you 100% in this. I think it needs to be said, and it needs to be dealt with. Btw/ H.H. Pope Shenouda has passed away, so maybe you should update your signature to pray for his eternal rest. Just a suggestion from a child.
ReturnOrthodoxy
No one will hear me argue that there isn't a decline in spirituality. I will not disagree with the comments about Egyptianism and disorganization. When it comes to matters of faith, there will be no room for compromise.
However, are we doing the opposite of what the Apostles decreed when they said "It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things." (Acts 1527-29). Why do we condemn people as murderers when the deaths of these 8 people can simply be deemed an accident? This wouldn't happen in a court of law. And if anyone is to be condemned as a murder, it would be the organizers of the funeral, not the attendees. Why do we consider it anarchy when someone spends his time weaving palms for Palm Sunday? How do you know that this person isn't praising God through weaving while others are praising through psalms and hymns? How does anyone know the heart and thoughts of those who are weaving palms and adjudicate that they believe the God of Palm Sunday is different from the God of the Resurrection or the God of last Wednesday?
Yes, in times of crisis people act emotionally and sometimes un-spiritually. And sometimes people tend to forget their spirituality. However, by making these judgments are we not doing the same exact thing? Are we not forgetting our own spirituality, becoming proud and ignoring humility. Isn't this the message of Palm Sunday? Why do we assume those who are seeking forgiveness through repentance and metanias on Good Friday are not doing the same thing in the privacy of their own houses? And even if most people are not repenting with metanias at home, what gives us the right to say it is personal greed or anarchy?
The Apostles only wanted us to concern ourselves with food sacrificed from idols, blood, strangled animals meat and sexual immorality. This doesn't exclude other sins. But we need not demand a supreme standard that many may not be able to endure. We would burden most people from coming to Christ. This is why Pope Shenouda continued to say "Have compassion on the people".