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Miracles by Pope Shenouda...
Hey, as we all know, H.H. Pope Shenouda was a great man, who carried an abundace of blessings. Therefore, i would like to start this thread to commemorate some of the great works Christ conducted through him. Feel free!
Also, please do not lock this thread like you did to the previous one. There is absolutly no problem whatsoever with commemorating such a blessed father and saint. Please think wisely, and think of how H.H. would appreciate it.
Also, please do not lock this thread like you did to the previous one. There is absolutly no problem whatsoever with commemorating such a blessed father and saint. Please think wisely, and think of how H.H. would appreciate it.
Comments
1) If the moderator locked a thread, do not start another one and ask them not to start another one. That is rude.
2) I personally do not like threads like this. He was a great man, but lets not not start inventing stuff. That is inevitably what is going to happen on this thread. We end up disrespecting him by having to make up stories. His teachings and care and life or service are testament enough to his work. I do not want these "miracles." If there are miracles that need to be released, they will be done by the church officials. Apart from that, there is no need for overly emotional people to take a story, exaggerate it, and make a mockery of our faith as being superstitious.
You think Pope Shenouda would appreciate this? I think not. Rather than thinking about the lessons we learned from him, we are only speaking about miracles which he did. We leave the important things that he gave us (like teachings on how to live the christian life) because we want gratification in stories. This is not what he would want.
When it comes to miracles, Coptic laymen are typically that last people I trust. We take a small story, exaggerate it into a miracle. Or we make stuff up all together. We seem superstitious that way. Our faith was never about that.
As ecclesiastical children, we follow the church, not the movement of people. When the church makes a statement, then make a thread to discuss it. Miracles are not campfire stories. We don't just throw them around.
ReturnOrthodoxy
Primarily, greetings, we havent spoken in a while ;)
However,
1) It is not rude. In fact, a moderator should not abuse his authority simply because a thread is not to his liking. Therefore, he locks it. However, when we speak of miracles as such, we are able to see the marvelous glory of our Lord, Christ, through his clergy. In which, as a matter of fact, not only gives people hope, but also encourages people to strenghthen their faith and pray, to maybe also see the glory of God.
2) Your response soley purposes and focuses on the fact that the only thing people will be doing on this thread is inventing lies, and making up random stories about H.H. Although, there is no stance in which such an assumption should be made, due to the fact that we should all be images of Christ, which is why with this mentality, we will not strive in our goal. Thirdly, are you honestly saying that the church is aware of each and every single done through H.H.
Lastly, if so, what is your opinion on the miracles of the other saints. Why is it that you believe that this man is not as highly regarded as the rest of the extravaent saints found within the Coptic Church?
Forgive Me,
Monasticsx
Secondly, I do believe that many stories are lies. Everything needs to go through the church. Even if the miracle is real, unless it is approved by the synod, I wont believe it. People like to believe what makes them happy. I wont have it. This misrepresents our church.
My opinion of other miracles differ. I usually check for documentation. When it comes to such things as healings, I check to see if there are doctor's reports. Other than that, I only go for church approved miracles. Secondly, Pope Shenouda was a good man, but still not passed by the church as a "Saint" (capital S). Pope Shenouda was a great patriarch. We must wait for the church as a whole to make claims to anything more than that. I will not extrapolate on my own.
when the church canonizes him (or shows official interest in doing so), then I will call him a saint. When the Synod approves of the miracle, then I will believe it. Apart from that, the Bible inspires us to test every spirit. I can smell the smell of myths brewing.
ReturnOrthodoxy
Blessed are those who believe without seeing.
Don't debase our Holy Father to this fanatic miracle worship garbage. Your hostility and arrogance towards the moderators here is unacceptable.
The miracle of Pope Shenouda III is that he endured while in physical ailment for a long time, shepherding his church in one of the most turbulent times, while remaining very grounded and spiritual. He wrote over 100 books on a variety of topics. He endured suffering like very few people have, save the martyrs. His life is a miracle. Starting a thread like this only furthers this miracle fanatacism that seems rampant in our church. Miracles do not save. Miracles do not show anything we do not already know. The life of our holy father is model of a Christ like life, THAT is a miracle. The Eucharist is a miracle. Preaching a sermon a week before your death is a miracle.
Don't debase our Holy Father to this fanatic miracle worship garbage. Your hostility and arrogance towards the moderators here is unacceptable.
A few years back, ilovesaintmark wrote:
Pope Shenouda is a walking miracle.
Our Church is indebted to Almighty God, beyond words and emotions, for what has been granted us through him.
Shall I make a list (let me count the numbers):
1. He is the successor to St. Mark. That is a miracle, because the Holy Spirit chose him for that postion.
2. He has endured persection--mental and physical anguish.
3. He has revitalized the monastic system, from which the nurture of the entire Church is derived.
4. The expansion of the Diaspora, and his personal, I mean full personal care, for everyone, every single parish, in the diaspora. Outside of St. Severus, in the times of the Chalcedonian persecutions, has there has been no recording of these extraordinary openings of churches, and priestly ordinations (in these numbers).
5. The erudition in his teaching and theology. We have no one, that I know of, in the Coptic Church with that caliber. To be a mouth for the Holy Spirit--amazing. His explanations are so fluid that they must be heavenly inspired--nothing else.
6. How about dignity with which he conducts himself in front of foreigners and the Egyptian Government. They are humbled in his presence. That is a gift that is granted him, that even his enemies have to bow to him.
7. How about the fatherly nature that he answers his children. He carries the patience of Job, despite the 'boils' that are put on him.
8. His courage to stand up and ask for our human rights.
9. His wit and quick thought.
10. His mastery of the Holy Scriptures by heart and not by rote.
11. He has a soft voice when pronouncing the Divine Liturgy, a heartfelt language with Our Divine Father.
If those are not miracles, I do not know what is.
Pope Shenouda is a miracle...a walking miracle...a presentor of miracles...and an inspiration for miracles.
I will not even put these matters in perspective to his age, that would be shameful. His deeds go beyond the ages that we will see. His voice echos with his predecessors.
THE MAN IS AMAZING! I AM IN AWE OF HIM!
He gives hope that any of us have the potential to be like him, in his emulation of the Lord Himself.
He has the nicest laugh. It makes you want to laugh and relax, especially when he gets caught up in the laughter portion. I never met my father's father, and very briefly my mother's father--in life--but I think God gave me Pope Shenouda as that surrogate grandfather, and an absolute example of a spiritual father. That is the personal miracle that God gave to me through him.
I have multiple residences, relative to work, and at each one I have an anthology of all his works in English. You can learn in one chapter what others try to explain in volumes. He is priceless. If he were an angel, one would explain it away that all of this is intrinsic in his nature, yet, because he is a man it is so much more an expression of the indelible possibilities.
When he was ill in the recent 1-2 years, I felt great pain and at times was overwhelmed with emotions to the point of tears that I would have the potential of not having him around. I pleaded with God for his health, not for his sake, but for all of our sakes. I know that God grants a proper shepherd for his church, but you cannot help being emotional about your father and grandfather. What a sweet smile and a twinkle in his eye.
Have you ever noticed when he smiles, and the outer corners of his eyes crinkle, there is such transfer of the Peaceful expression of God's Love to us.
I remember him with an interviewer when he was discussing the abductions of some of the Coptic girls in Egypt and he was choked in his words for the inhumanity of these abductions. There was no political aspirations, just a fervent emotion for his children. How difficult it must be to responsible before God for millions of souls? I barely have time to take care of myself some days.
Awesome, simply an awesome miraculous man.
http://tasbeha.org/content/community/index.php/topic,6380.msg84212.html
I just find it amazing how a person can be wrapped by the Almighty's Hands on a daily fashion such as H.H.
I agree with Ioannes, to live an Orthodox Life is a daily struggle, and to achieve any portion of it is gain.
I believe that a miracle, such as His Holiness in our lives, can bring on more miracles of witness to the Almighty. In the opposite, a sin can bring on more sins to keep us from the Almighty.
I like the Pope Shenouda path that he paved for us.
I think there should be a sign in every church, looking like a regular street sign, pointing the way to the church altar. It can be called the "Pope Shenouda Walking Path" and the arrow pointing the way. I think it would be a great gesture in memorium.
I think there should be a sign in every church, looking like a regular street sign, pointing the way to the church altar. It can be called the "Pope Shenouda Walking Path" and the arrow pointing the way. I think it would be a great gesture in memorium.
http://flickr.com/gp/71140675@N06/ci720d
I would add some decorations of Crosses. The Cross is both the arrow and the target.
http://orthodoxsermons.org/sermons/it-happened-night
May their prayers be with us all. Amen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H07kEYKvywg
[quote author=Thanks be to God Always link=topic=13062.msg153556#msg153556 date=1332541763]
Towards the end of the sermon, Fr. Paul mentions some of the miracles done by, His Holiness Pope Shenouda III
http://orthodoxsermons.org/sermons/it-happened-night
May their prayers be with us all. Amen
Oh and are the miracles told by Fr. Paul written in Pope Shenouda's book "It happened that night?" Because i don't think H.H. Pope Shenouda will tell miracles by himself.
Hey Marmar, Pope Shenouda does not mention his miracles in his book.
Fr. Paul does towards the end of the sermon, He mentions about 2-3 miracles perform by His Holiness.
May God bless n pray for me
ReturnOrthodoxy
Therefore, I sencirely hope we all partake in such a blessing, and be able to see the works of our Almighty Lord, through his blessed flock.
I think there should be a sign in every church, looking like a regular street sign, pointing the way to the church altar. It can be called the "Pope Shenouda Walking Path" and the arrow pointing the way. I think it would be a great gesture in memorium.
I love this idea beyond what words can describe. The Holy Synod should issue a decree about this.
Anyway....So the miricle I heard was that a Sunday servant went to visit a child in his house in an apartment but when she knocked, she knocked on a Muslim guys door by acciedent and when the man found out she was Christian he grabed and put her in a room in his house. The girl quickly shouted for baba shenouda and pope Shenouda appeared and told the Muslim guy to go get the girl and then he took her out and then the Pope disappeared. Since it was a wednesday and she always went to the sermon and she wrote down was it really you who saved me he read part of the question and then looked directly at the lady and smiled
:)
Who did you hear this from, and who did the hear it from? Is there a direct connection to the person themselves or is it just hearsay?
I believe it's just hearsay. I've heard several different variations of it.
I apologize wholeheartedly in advance if any of you is offended by comments. I write them truly out of love and out of a desire for us all to journey with one another into the True Way.
I'd rather be short in my comments here than write out a full exposition of what I believe; I think there is too much talking that goes on and not enough of us understand the significance of silence, myself first and foremost. While there is a fear that we fall into recognizing false miracles, I think there should be a justified fear in our disregarding them completely. People experience miracles. For some, it will strengthen their faith. There are those who will say that miracles aren't supposed to strengthen our faith... really? Is that the case for everyone? The crowds marveled at the fact that the disciples spoke in tongues. St. Thomas saw the risen Lord and proclaimed "My Lord and my God!"
There are times when the miracles overtake the significance of the event (e.g. the feeding of the multitudes and their chasing Christ afterwards for more food). Their downfall was that they chased after Him for worldly gain and not spiritual. There are many in the world that are simple in heart. They believe for simple reasons. They may hear about a miracle here and there, and it increases their steadfastness in their prayers. They may glorify God in the saint through which the Hand of God worked the miracle.
I used to be very much of the mentality that we should not rely on miracles at all for our faith. I was adamant about this. Now, I see the distresses in the world, the pains people endure, and I wish that they find rest in the Lord. Is the person who reads theological books all day and night the most holy of people? Or, is it perhaps, the one who prays earnestly with their hearts, discovering their nous and finding the kingdom of God within them? How many around us are uneducated in the worldly sense, but surpass us in their faith by miles and miles, because they have True Knowledge through fervent prayer?
Let's not just denounce miracles. I'm not saying we're all disregarding them completely; mention has been made that we acknowledge those acknowledged by the Holy Synod. What I'm trying to get across, however, is that we can all stand to benefit from things beyond our often (forgive me) short-sighted ways.
Pray for my weakness, that God may have mercy on my soul stricken with the sickness of priding myself above others who may, in fact, be so much more closer to Him than I that they pray for me while I judge them,
childoforthodoxy
Greetings in our Lord and blessings of the Holy Fast be upon us,
I apologize wholeheartedly in advance if any of you is offended by comments. I write them truly out of love and out of a desire for us all to journey with one another into the True Way.
I'd rather be short in my comments here than write out a full exposition of what I believe; I think there is too much talking that goes on and not enough of us understand the significance of silence, myself first and foremost. While there is a fear that we fall into recognizing false miracles, I think there should be a justified fear in our disregarding them completely. People experience miracles. For some, it will strengthen their faith. There are those who will say that miracles aren't supposed to strengthen our faith... really? Is that the case for everyone? The crowds marveled at the fact that the disciples spoke in tongues. St. Thomas saw the risen Lord and proclaimed "My Lord and my God!"
There are times when the miracles overtake the significance of the event (e.g. the feeding of the multitudes and their chasing Christ afterwards for more food). Their downfall was that they chased after Him for worldly gain and not spiritual. There are many in the world that are simple in heart. They believe for simple reasons. They may hear about a miracle here and there, and it increases their steadfastness in their prayers. They may glorify God in the saint through which the Hand of God worked the miracle.
I used to be very much of the mentality that we should not rely on miracles at all for our faith. I was adamant about this. Now, I see the distresses in the world, the pains people endure, and I wish that they find rest in the Lord. Is the person who reads theological books all day and night the most holy of people? Or, is it perhaps, the one who prays earnestly with their hearts, discovering their nous and finding the kingdom of God within them? How many around us are uneducated in the worldly sense, but surpass us in their faith by miles and miles, because they have True Knowledge through fervent prayer?
Let's not just denounce miracles. I'm not saying we're all disregarding them completely; mention has been made that we acknowledge those acknowledged by the Holy Synod. What I'm trying to get across, however, is that we can all stand to benefit from things beyond our often (forgive me) short-sighted ways.
Pray for my weakness, that God may have mercy on my soul stricken with the sickness of priding myself above others who may, in fact, be so much more closer to Him than I that they pray for me while I judge them,
childoforthodoxy
I agree so much with you. I am sick of people saying how it's bad to talk about miracles and it's so damaging. The miracles that we here about give us more hope that God is with us and that the injustice of the world will not prevail.
Stop putting so much emphasis on these things. Its like when I come to church and see it packed...because a bishop is there. Really? Christ is not enough to bring you to church early? Don't be backwards in your thinking, rarely did the church fathers speak of miracles as much as the copts do today.
It also seems to me that we cheapen miracles by mentioning them so casually, as if they're campfire stories.
Here's a related excerpt from Practical Spirituality on false miracles, by Heg. Fr. Athanasius Iskander:
In order to confirm you in your delusion, the devil can sometimes make you “know things” before they happen! , or know the thoughts of people!
How can the devil do this? Very easy! He knows that your grandmother in Egypt is dying, so he puts the thought in your mind. You call Egypt and they tell you indeed that she is very ill. If you believe this, he will keep on telling you things in order to convince you that God is favouring you by these revelations, and fill you with the deadly sins of
pride and self righteousness.
John Climacus tells us that the devil can implant a thought in someone’s mind and reveal it to another to give him the illusion that he can read people’s minds! Where do you think all those “Psychics” get their knowledge? From the devil. Actually most “Psychics” are really people possessed by demons.
Three monks were having “revelations” and they were arguing among themselves whether these revelations are from God or from the devil. They decided to go to Saint Antony the Great to ask him about these. While on the way to Saint Antony, the donkey they had with them died. They resumed their journey and when they reached Saint
Antony, he told them, “Too bad that your donkey died!” They asked him, “How did you know about the donkey?” He told them, “The devil told me!” They told him, “You answered our question before we asked you.”
Some people have visions of saints or angels. One has to be very careful before accepting these, because the devil can imitate these in order to ruin your spiritual life. The history of the desert Fathers is filled with horror stories about people who accepted these visions without discerning whether they are from God or from the devil. One of these stories is the story of Heron, a monk that spent 50 years in ascetism and was brought to ruin by a false angel that appeared to him for a long time. He stopped going to church, and refused the advice of the other monks, who advised him to tell the Abbot about this. In the end the “angel” convinced him that he was going to be taken
alive to heaven like Elijah. The poor man went to say goodbye to his fellow monks, who tried in vain to convince him that this is the devil, but he would not listen. The “angel” took him to a mountain and convinced him to jump, and of course he fell to his death. The Abbot would not allow the psalms to be chanted for him. He considered him
as one who committed suicide.
Another “angel” appeared to another monk for three years. The cell in which he lived was shining with the light of the “angel”, so that he did not need to light any candles! After three years, the “angel” gave him a vision of “Paradise” showing him the Jews sitting in the bosom of Abraham, while the Christians were being tortured in Hades, He left Christianity and became a Jew.
There were wiser monks though. To one “Gabriel” appeared with a message from God! He told him, “You must have come to the wrong cell, for I am a sinner unworthy of revelations, but the monk next door is a saintly man.” “Gabriel” disappeared in smoke! To another monk “The Lord” appeared and told him to worship him, but he said, “I don’t want to see the Lord on earth, I want to see him in heaven.” Again, the false “Lord” disappeared in smoke.
Now these are things that happened to monks centuries ago, but the devil is still using the same techniques even today, with great success. Many years ago, I noticed that one of the servants has stopped coming to church and having communion for a long time and I decided to visit him and ask him about the reason for this. He simply told me,
“Pope Kyrillos appears to me every Sunday and gives me communion!”
Another servant from out of town, told me that something was bothering his conscience. Since I was not his Father in confession, I advised him to confess to his own Father in confession. The next morning he called to tell me that “Pope Kyrillos” came to him in a dream, asked him to confess, then gave him the absolution. He asked me if this is good enough, but I told him, I still suggest very strongly, that you go and confess to your Father in confession, and tell him about this dream.
There are true apparitions, but there are also false apparitions, in the same way that there is real money and there is counterfeit money. And the proper way to handle revelations, apparitions and dreams, is to consult with your Father in confession.
A spiritual person will always deem him/herself unworthy of these revelations. Dreams are totally under the control of the devil. God spoke to certain people through dreams, but these can be counted on the fingers and they were saints and prophets, not sinners like us. We should not give much weight to dreams. Saint Antony once said, “He
who believes in dreams is the toy of the demons.”
Needless to say, the anger I felt towards God for doing this was unbelievable. It did not take long to realize that this was a false miracle meant to do just that. I informed my wife of this and we both agreed we had been duped. Since then we have become much better Christians in that we thank God in all things, and not hope and pray for miracles. The miracle is that God has mercy on us sinners.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=13062.msg154320#msg154320 date=1333715655]
Who did you hear this from, and who did the hear it from? Is there a direct connection to the person themselves or is it just hearsay?
I believe it's just hearsay. I've heard several different variations of it.
I guess this could be a bit of a Chinese Whispers game. Ive heard it from several people and its on the internet. I'm sorry if i have upset anyone.
but i know one for sure that happened
My mum's friend was struggling to make her decision on whether to become a nun or not. so she would always ask questions in the sermon and every time he would answer her question he would look directly at her. and she is now a nun.
Look I think our faith isn't based on miracles but there's nothing wrong with listening or wanting to hear of them, if there was something wrong with it then there wouldn't be books about Pope Kyrollos's miracles. I'm just sharing my opinion. :)