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Why do we have funerals Prayers?
Hi,
There's something really bugging here that I do not understand.
After the Palm Sunday Service, we are prayed on the prayer of the dead.Its a funeral. In fact, the prayer is called "Al Ginaza" (the Funeral).
The priest today explained it (again!) "We will pray on you the prayer of the departed, so if anyone passes away during Holy Week, we just bury them so we can focus on the passion of Christ during this week".
OK.. so they prayed on us the prayer of the dead. They prayed on us this prayer of the dead last year.. is there a need to pray it again on us again the year after???
In fact, is there a reason to even bring our coffins in to Church to pray on it? We just had loads of funeral prayers prayed on us during our lifetime. The day we DO die, we've already gone through the funeral prayers. Why do it again??
For example: a priest or a bishop who has died at an old age, say 90 years of age - what's the point of praying on him the prayer of the departed AGAIN during his funeral? He's already had it prayed on him 90 times during his lifetime through the Passion Week Process.
Thanks
There's something really bugging here that I do not understand.
After the Palm Sunday Service, we are prayed on the prayer of the dead.Its a funeral. In fact, the prayer is called "Al Ginaza" (the Funeral).
The priest today explained it (again!) "We will pray on you the prayer of the departed, so if anyone passes away during Holy Week, we just bury them so we can focus on the passion of Christ during this week".
OK.. so they prayed on us the prayer of the dead. They prayed on us this prayer of the dead last year.. is there a need to pray it again on us again the year after???
In fact, is there a reason to even bring our coffins in to Church to pray on it? We just had loads of funeral prayers prayed on us during our lifetime. The day we DO die, we've already gone through the funeral prayers. Why do it again??
For example: a priest or a bishop who has died at an old age, say 90 years of age - what's the point of praying on him the prayer of the departed AGAIN during his funeral? He's already had it prayed on him 90 times during his lifetime through the Passion Week Process.
Thanks
Comments
We want nothing but to be sure that God accepts our prayers. We will constantly insist that He repose us in heaven.
I do not know the actual rites themselves, but wouldn't that make sense? Why would we ever stop? If we had the ability, I wish the church can pray on my soul and every other soul that God may have mercy on us so that we make it to heaven... What else then is the point of prayer?
I think what Zoxsasi is asking is "I got married once, do I need to get married again?" for God to keep on blessing my marriage?
The answer to your question is because unfortunately the rite is carried out in a wrong way and so has lost its meaning.
Here is what I mean.
Currently, the priests pray the funeral prayer with raising of incense on the water, and then they sprinkle the water on the people. So in this way our bodies have been prepared for burial many times.
Because of this practice, we think that the funeral prayer has been prayed over our bodies many times and your question is valid.
However, the correct way of doing it is after prayer the water is not sprinkled, but only kept for the length of the week. If someone happens to pass away, then the body attends the Pascha and the water that was prayed with the raising of incense is sprinkled over his body. This way it is prepared for burial. The water that is not used by the end of the week is then discarded into the ground or I THINK, it can be consumed.
In this way, even though we attend the prayer, the body doesn't partake of the effect until the day of passing.
So is there a need to attend the prayer? The answer is yes and it is spiritual, and goes back to what jshouk said about asking God for mercy. In the prayer we ask God for the the repose of the soul (after it passes). since we will not be able to pray for that until after Holy Week, so it is done in advance.
I don't know if this adds to anything or answers your question.
Blessed Holy Week.
I thought it was just for the family.
So praying will not change the final judgement on that soul, b/c it has already departed.
Praying for the departed is Holy Tradition and Biblical.
There are people out there trying to deny that it has any use, but of course it does.
Does a funeral even have any effect on the departed persons soul?
I thought it was just for the family.
This has been discussed previously, in this thread.
Please pray for me.
It never made sense for me to have something called a "general" funeral. It's an oxymoron and a paradox. How can you have a funeral service for someone who has not died? How can you have any service, seeking some sort of effect, without having a problem? Do we pray the unction of sick on people who are not sick (not even spiritually sick)? Do we get a general confession absolution when no one has confessed? Can repentance be granted without acknowledging the sin? Why do we think we should have a funeral without death? Since when does "just in case" justify a service? By this same logic, we should have a "general" wedding/crowning service "just in case" someone has to get married during Holy Pascha week.
Whoever came up with the justification that a general funeral service is done just in case someone dies during Holy Week did not understand the Orthodox belief in mercy, justification, sanctification and the Resurrection. Let's discuss this a little bit.
First, why do we pray that the God should have mercy on the departed soul? This has to do with understanding the power and reason for prayer. Linguistically (and I believe theologically and culturally) "Kyrie eleyson" had a different meaning in Greek than it does in Arabic and English. "eleyson" comes from the same root word as "oil". Poured oil is often used for comfort. The sinful woman pour oil on Jesus' feet. Mary, Lazarus' sister, pour oil on Jesus for his burial. Oil is added to perfumes and soaps to give a soft, comforting feeling. When we say Kyrie eleyson, we are really asking for God give us comfort because sin has wounded us. God, in his immeasurable compassion, gives it freely. We just have to ask. King David took it a step further when he said "Give thanks to the Lord" in Psalm 136/137. Why give thanks to the Lord? Because his mercy endures forever. In other words, we are so confident that we have such a compassion God that even when we sin against Him and He has no reason to comfort us from our wounds, He always sends us the same comforting power of "oil" (which we call mercy). He always has mercy. He always comforts us when we hurt ourselves. Contrast this to other religions who only see an angry God that seeks punishment for sinners. If we have the confidence that God comforts those in dire situations, should we not also ask for God to comfort and give rest to the departed soul? This is why we pray for God to have mercy on the soul. In other words, we are not asking God to undo his judgment. We are praying that God extends that comforting mercy to the departed as He does to those still alive.
Second, if you look at the link Jimmy gave us, and follow it to Kephas' link, you'll see salvation and sanctification in the Orthodox faith is not a momentary event. It is an eternal process. It does not stop at death. In John 17:3, Jesus said it will take us eternity to know God. Knowing God is a type of sanctification of the soul. It doesn't stop at death. St Peter tells us that Christ spoke to those who died: "After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits" (1 Peter 3:19) "Making proclamation" is also a type of sanctification of the soul. The souls in Hades, who were waiting for Christ, were sanctified by the face to face meeting of Christ in Hades. (Even though they don't have physical faces. ;D) So then, if the dead can be sanctified after death, why not sanctify them by remembering them and praying to God for their comfort and repose? Again, we are not praying to undo any judgment. We are praying that we may sanctify ourselves by praying, we are praying that the departed souls may be sanctified by God's mercy as described above, and we are praying to acknowledge that God is the God of heaven and earth, the God of the living and the dead, the God who conquered death (again, a type of sanctification).
This brings me to the original question of the original poster, "Why do we have funeral prayers?" Below is a list. We already spoke of the first three.
1. Ask God to comfort or repose the departed soul
2. Ask God to sanctify the departed
3. Ask God to sanctify us on earth
4. Remind us of our own mortality.
5. Seek the hope of the Resurrection.
6. Sharing in the work of the heavens.
7. Keep the alive the bond of love of the living and the dead.
In the Eastern Orthodox rite, a funeral is called a memorial. In their "funeral" or memorial service, each person lights their own individual candle throughout the service. Before the end of the service, everyone blows out their candle. Just as the individual has departed, the candle they hold is a reminder of their own mortality. Their life on earth will end. No exceptions. Therefore, any funeral or memorial service (whether 40 days, 1 year post-mortem, or annually forever) is to bring us, we who are alive, to repentance.
Have you ever noticed, no Orthodox Christian has a problem with praying to saints for intercessions? If praying to the dead has no effect, why do we have intercessions? The scriptures teach us that the angels and the saints shared in Christ's birth, death and resurrection. Every time you ask for an intercession, you are acknowledging that the heavens are actors in our salvation. Why should we not also share with the heavens? The departed can intercede for us. In this two way communication with the heavenly and the earthly, we confirm our faith that Christ reconciled the heavenly and the earthly as we say in the Gregorian Liturgy.
In addition, if you have someone so dear and special to you, you find ways to remember them (whether they are alive or dead). Do we not simply pick up the phone to talk to our loved ones now, for no other reason to than keeping the bond of love and peace strong (as Ephesians 4 tells us). Everyone does it. You pick up the phone just to say hi because this person is dear to you. If this person is very dear to you, distance will not stop you from keeping that bond alive. Do we not pick up the phone just to say hi our parents or special friends who live far away. If distance can't break the bond of love, then neither will death. After all, death is a departure, a temporary displacement of location. If our bond with the departed is that strong, then we will keep a memorial so that we can continue communicating to our dear friend.
The problem people run into is that distance lends to hopelessness. Many people break friendships and relations simply because they have no hope they will ever see that person again. When it comes to death, people's rationalize the same hopelessness to a much greater degree. They have determined that they will never see that person again (at least alive). But this hopelessness is a symptom is the lack of faith in the Resurrection of Christ. And if there is no faith in the Resurrection, then everything in our entire faith is futile. (1 Cor 15).
It is for this last reason that I think Pope Shenouda and the Holy Synod was correct to change the general funeral rite. Not only have we forgotten the Christ's triumphant entry to Jerusalem, we forget Christ triumphant power and hope in the Resurrection if we focus all our attention human emotions and fear of "just in case we die". This just-in-case justification is antithetical to the hope of the Resurrection.
The general funeral rite controversy has resurfaced. Some have argued that the hymns context, the Pauline, the Psalm, and the Gospel readings in the funeral rite all focus on the Resurrection. This is why some bishops have argued that if you have a proper Orthodox understanding of funerals then there is no need to change the rite. I personally would like to see all funeral rites changed. No need for black attire, sad tunes or an emotionally driven practice. Rather we should focus the entire mind on the Resurrection.
Sorry this is so long. I'd like to hear what others think.
Just to Add. I believe the reason some people think what's the point of praying for the departed is because of a term that some preach (Honestly I don't know if any of the fathers used it or not).
This term is the victorious church vs. the struggling church.
This creates a sense that they are two churches. They are done, and we are not.
I don't like this because we are all one church. Except some of us are visible, and some are not (meaning the departed). We pray for them and they pray for us. All it is is that they are in a different place, but their life as a Christian has not ended. So just like you wish to pray for your family who are still living, when they depart, you shouldn't stop praying for them in the same exact way. When you ask for their intercession, it's like saying to your friend that you see everyday pray for me.
Attaching them to the term victorious church kind of separates us from them a little bit, as if they are done and have nothing else to do. I believe that they are still working and praying to God for us. The only difference is, they don't have to deal with the early life. It's likened to a person who is living in church (heaven on earth) eternally.
Regarding the General funeral,
I feel like if people weren't lazy and the church had to adapt to what they want and it was done right before Pascha like it was originally, it would give it more meaning, and wouldn't take away from the Joy of Palm Sunday.
But, I don't think that this will change anytime soon.
I wonder if there are any churches out there that still do it like it was originally.
And if you did attend the general funeral prayer and died after Pascha week, you're going to get a funeral. But you said "funeral prayers are not done again"? How can you have multiple funeral prayers without dying but when you actually die, you shouldn't get an individual funeral prayer because you've already had a funeral prayer?
And if you did attend the general funeral prayer and died during Pascha week, you're telling me you're not going to get a proper individual burial. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the only time one doesn't get an individual funeral burial is when the person committed suicide. (And many priests and bishops don't ascribe to this rule). How is it when you have been blessed to literally die with Christ on the same week, you're not afforded the same (if not more) blessing and the power of the Resurrection as those individuals who reposed after Pascha week and have been sanctified with funeral prayers?
This is the rite of the church. You are mixing matters.
The general funeral is done because there are no funeral prayers conducted during the Holy Week. This has nothing to do with the state someone dies in.
So if someone dies during the holy week, the church will not pray on him during the holy week because the church is busy during the holy week focusing on the pascha.
Ironic. The Pascha focuses on the Resurrection, just like the funeral prayers. And yet you can't have a funeral for an individual during the funeral and sufferings of the Savior.
After all, isn't the Pascha doxology, "Your is the power, the glory, the blessing and the majesty forever", a declaration of the hope in the resurrection? If you are focused on the death of Christ and not His resurrection, that phrase has no meaning. No. It is the current application of the rite. The original rite of the church only requires water to be prayed on for a funeral after Easter.
All the Christian people including: men and women, old and young, servant and master, gathered in the holy Church for the general funeral. This service was prayed on this day in the event that someone departed during Pascha week since there was no Raising of Incense except on Great Thursday and Bright Saturday. So this funeral replaced the funeral on the four days where there was no Raising of the Incense. And if anyone departed during those days, (s)he would be brought to the church where the appropriate funeral prayers were prayed, but without the Raising of Incense.
The reason why we do not celebrate any liturgies during these next three days of Holy Week is because Palm Sunday was the tenth day after the full-moon - the day at which the sheep and the goats were sold for the feast according to the sayings of God in the Torah. "Take unto you a lamb for yourselves without blemish and keep it with you until the fourteenth day" – when you shall slaughter it according to the sayings of the Lord. Keep it on the eleventh, the twelfth, and the thirteenth day and slaughter it on the fourteenth day. So they kept the lamb for three days: Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday; and on Thursday, they slaughtered it. For this reason, no liturgies are celebrated during these three days. The liturgy or sacrifice on Great Thursday is the Lamb of God, Jesus Christ, who was slaughtered for the sins of the world.
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* Can be found in pg. 274 of the "Deacons' Service Book" of 'The Committee of the Revival Churches' (Gam-'eiet Nahdet Al-Kana-es)
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http://tasbeha.org/hymn_library/view/1825
It seems that there is a contradiction here. First the author of "The Spiritual Pearl" (Bishop Severus al-Muqaffa?) says the general funeral replaces the individual funeral on the four days (Mon, Tue, Wed, Fri) where there is no raising of the incense. But the next sentence says "if anyone departed during those days (I assume the same 4 days), he would be brought to the church where the appropriate funeral prayers were prayed. Which rite does the author ascribe to?
Second question. I don't have the information in front of me. Correct me if I'm wrong. But I thought there is no raising of the incense in funeral prayers, since funerals are not required to be done with a liturgy/Eucharist. I don't see what the connection is between the raising of incense and funeral services.
I never said that the water is used after Easter. The water is used before Easter.
The water takes place of that which is forbidden during Holy Week, which is the raising of incense in the first three days. But a funeral is not prayed for the whole week because nothing shares in the sadness of Christ's passions, which he chose to partake of out of his own will.
Part of the rite of the funeral is incense raising (doesn't have to be associated with liturgy). Ebn Kabar states that there is raising of incense during the funeral rite.
The General Funeral is also called the Funeral of the Living (according to Ebn seba3 in algawhara elnafisa). He says the purpose for it is:
"...passion week is dedicated for the sufferings of Christ, and sadness for the One who has gone to destruction by His will by the cross especially. So with the sadness of (or for) Christ to His is due Glory, There is no other sadness. Before the Passion week begins, A funeral for all the people is done in that hour (meaning the ninth hour of palm sunday), so that no funeral is done in which sadness occurs and so shares with the sadness for Christ. The funeral which takes place is complete as is the normal practice, beginning with the prayer (of thanks giving), and raising of incense and proceeding with it (the incense) around the people, and saying the hymns of sadness..." etc...
When Ebn Elmokafa3 says during Passion Week, the appropriate funeral prayers were prayed, he means that which is appropriate for those days.
Ebn Kabar explains:
"If one of the men dies, nothing is prayed but a reading from the Torah and nothing else, because the funeral has been prayed generally on Palm Sunday, so that nothing else shares with the Lord's Passions. The reading mentioned ends and begins with "When the days of mourning were completed (Genesis 50:4?). Like wise the women, if they die in the mentioned week, A reading from the Torah is read, which begins with "These were the years of the Life of Sarah ", and ends with "In all it's purposes" (Genesis 23?)."
Funny you should mention liturgies because technically before the rite of the funeral is prayed, the family and the body should attend a liturgy.