lol Ilovestmark, I'm not angry, you're just not perceptive.
But way to go with having a rational discussion LOL next time you can just write *lalala i'm not listening lalalala I'm right and you're wrong lalala* It'd save you time &;-)
It is part of being human, to hit lows, yet the sinful part is letting it consume you and taking over the aspect of hope.
Hope is not the same thing as "wishes".
The best example is the sin of Judas. It led him to depression and he chose to stay down and wallow in it rather than trying to rise from that depression. He lost hope in himself and more importantly in God.
Each person has different vehicles in which to look for the rise from depression. Ultimately, regardless of what technique, God has to be at the center of the rise.
I respect ILSM with much respect (big ups ILSM lol) but I am not a fool so as to be convinced easily. I have done research, and consulted many priests, and a few bishops.
I agree whole-heartedly. God has to be the center of the rise. But therapy does not mean that it is Godless. Man shall not live by bread ALONE. But that does not mean that bread is bad! We take our bread in thanks to God.
I see no reason to understand that depression is not a "choice" and that it has really medical and psychological basis, and to work through therapy in thanks to God.
Read and answer his points one by one. Tell me where you disgaree, and tell me why I should take your word (as a youth who has not studied the sciences to the degree of HGBY, and as a youth who has not the same level of pasotral care as HGBY who deals with this daily.)
Dont give me umbrella answers. They are meaningless.
[quote author=GabrielYakub link=topic=12687.msg154673#msg154673 date=1334654846] I mean, on one hand you're telling me that I had to seek god with all my heart and now you're telling me I had to desire god above all else. And I'm telling you, I've done both. And you can disagree with me, but its like you telling me that I have never seen the colour red. I know what I've experienced, and i have experienced the seeking and desire you're speaking of, which is exactly why I am not convinced with your response.
And if you want to argue that this desire and seeking are necessary preconditions to discover God, well it is clear that this is demonstrably false.
Why are you here? To reaffirm your "non-belief" in God? How foolish does someone have to be to use "non-belief" as if the absence of belief is how we have ever described ourselves? Atheism is a belief, you have to believe there is no God/gods, that does not make you special in any way, nor does it allow you to weasel your way out of arguments, like what "non-belief" has done for the world.
That is all this is to you; an argument. You don't seem to understand the degree to which what your saying is detrimental. I dont want to argue with you now or after khamaseen.
I think it is pitiful that you are going to come in, make some claims, and when asked to discuss, you say that you dont want to argue.
ReturnOrthodoxy<---Demon possessed according to some... I kinda like it. It has a ring to it. I remember that the jews said the same thing about Jesus
Since people only listen to you, do you agree that depression is a sin and that it is a choice?
TITL, from now on I want you to apply this foolish logic to all other illnesses that pertain to ANY other organ in the body. Born with a heart condition? Well, you chose that. That is essentially what you are saying, you are singling out the brain as being an organ that is in some way different than all other organs in that it cannot get sick. It is not the fault of those who become ill that psychiatry is a complete and utter joke and would choose to over medicate than to find the cause, thereby finding the solution, to the problem.
What especially does not help is carrying on this ignorant attitude that is so much a part of your culture. By making this statement you are isolating people who are sick and need help. You are placing blame on their shoulders and making them the guilty party, great thing to do when someone is depressed (sarcasm). The brain gets sick just as any other part of the body. But since you think that it is a choice to become ill, then follow through completely and reject all illness as the work of the devil, or the choice of the person.
I take offense to your statement, if you could not already tell.
Since people only listen to you, do you agree that depression is a sin and that it is a choice?
TITL, from now on I want you to apply this foolish logic to all other illnesses that pertain to ANY other organ in the body. Born with a heart condition? Well, you chose that. That is essentially what you are saying, you are singling out the brain as being an organ that is in some way different than all other organs in that it cannot get sick. It is not the fault of those who become ill that psychiatry is a complete and utter joke and would choose to over medicate than to find the cause, thereby finding the solution, to the problem.
What especially does not help is carrying on this ignorant attitude that is so much a part of your culture. By making this statement you are isolating people who are sick and need help. You are placing blame on their shoulders and making them the guilty party, great thing to do when someone is depressed (sarcasm). The brain gets sick just as any other part of the body. But since you think that it is a choice to become ill, then follow through completely and reject all illness as the work of the devil, or the choice of the person.
I take offense to your statement, if you could not already tell.
TITL, Yes I must choose to have mood swings. I must choose to struggle every day of my life, not only with the mood swings, because who doesn't love mood swings, and with the ignorance so prevalent in your culture. Yes, I love having to go it alone becuase doctors are unwilling to find the root cause, and wonderfully humble and saintly people such as yourself, correctly point out that I choose to live in this misery. Gosh, you are SO right! (note, that this was sarcastic. also note, I am a bit upset with your statements)
1 Timothy 6:3-5 If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which accords with godliness, he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions, useless wranglings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. From such withdraw yourself.
[center]WORDS OF SPIRITUAL BENEFIT[/center]
[center]BY H. H. POPE SHENOUDA III[/center] Instead of hurting people, try to win them..... God does not accept harsh words as He is gentle and loving, His mouth is full of sweetness and His lips drop honey.
I pray we can be more like our Father in Heaven. O, Holy Trinity have mercy on us.
Thank you Peter. I am sure you know how difficult it is for those of us who do suffer to contend with drug happy doctors and pure ignorance from backward thinking people.
Depression is not a sin. Depression is not the same as "the pit of despair." The pit of despair is when one has given up. To say that depression is a sin is to deny someone their humanity.
RO, I really wish you hadn't deleted that post. It was beautiful. So many people benefited/could have benefited from it, including myself.
I'd also like to add, even those with mental illnesses who commit suicide are still given a proper funeral just like anyone else. (My only problem with it is the vague line between what is an illness and what is not, as well as how reliable a diagnosis is or lack thereof. But the spirit of this rule is in the right place.)
Thank you Peter. It is a blessing to have you explain this for us all. I apologize to everyone, namely TITL. I lost my cool and spoke out of frustration and anger. Forgive me.
"How do you "non-believe" in something? Who has EVER described themselves in terms of "non-belief"?"
"Belief" is simply accepting a statement. "Non-belief" is therefore rejecting a statement. And just because you've never heard of a non-believer before, don't describe yourself as one, and don't know how to grammatically use the term, that doesn't mean its therefore invalid and foolish. You clearly haven't thought about this long enough nor have you spoken to enough people.
Just on your other completely irrelevant points Ioannes, I'm here to engage in discussions with people, if you don't like it or think that I have some kind of agenda, you can stop responding to my posts :)
Furthermore, whether atheism is not responsible for atrocities in the world doesn't make a slight bit of difference to arguments about the existence of god, nor does it make me feel special or morally superior.
Returnorthodoxy,
I read your post, and I really appreciate and feel privileged that you would open up and share your personal experience. I think I read that that was your first time to open up about something like that? Its a shame that people will undermine that because they have a very poor understanding of mental health issues and would just disregard it as some kind of demon possession. I can't stress enough how primitive that way of thinking is.
I have also experienced this kind of emotional pain, I went through depression and anxiety at a time where I was losing my belief, and the thing is I was a very lonely person already, and so it made it extra hard for me to cope since my belief that a god existed, would comfort me. So I hear what you're saying, and understand where you are coming from.
LOL don't worry about having been on my page lol, Im always on other people's pages, its why they exist :) While some memes on my wall come across as insulting the Christian God, they more so point out the contradicting claims and actions of Christians and the claims and actions ascribed to their God by the Christians. I don't presuppose the existence of God and behave in such a way that he exists or might exist, for the former, I then wouldn't be an atheist otherwise, to the latter, whats to stop me from acting as if gods form other religions exist as well? Does that make sense?
P.s Adele had to undergo surgery as her vocal cords haemorrhaged and started bleeding - so you're in good company ;)
In regards to the discussion going on about mental health, we did a podcast with a counsellor discussing some of these issues, if anyone is interested:
and here's a website that has some really good information about depression, anxiety panic attacks etc. The website is an Australian national initiative fyi.
Gabriel, your arguments are nonsensical. For instance, light is energy, the absence of that is not, non-light, it is darkness. Why anyone chooses to describe themselves by what they do not believe is beyond me. You have to believe there is no God, it is a belief, not a lack of. Non-belief is not "rejecting a statement", it is an attempt to sound smart. When I say "I am an Orthodox Christian" one knows what I believe as well as what I "reject". Therefore it is a statement of beliefs. Atheism is a belief that God does not exist, or any gods. It is not rejecting a statement, it is accepting the belief that no God or gods exist.
I like how you address these points, then consider everything else as "irrelevant". So what is relevant? Are historical facts relevant to you? Perhaps you were not referring to the post in which I described that Christ does exist, then used logic and reason to show why the evidence would infer that He is who the Gospel writers claim.
You certainly have an agenda here, you stated yourself, you are here to "engage in discussion with people", for what purpose I am not sure. So why don't you, if you already have not, address my points made about the existence of Christ and why it is more logical that He IS God as opposed to Him not being God.
I mean, we could argue all day about the new definition of atheism that many, not just you (yes I do talk to other atheists), seem to be creating for themselves for whatever reason, but in reality it is a non-sensical argument as you not only are seeking to re-define a word but how people describe what they believe.
Comments
But way to go with having a rational discussion LOL next time you can just write *lalala i'm not listening lalalala I'm right and you're wrong lalala* It'd save you time &;-)
You were having doubts.
Doubts do not equal atheism.
I would not place you in the tripartite category.
You are human, like the rest of us.
There is no Atheism.
RO
Being human, is being human.
Being arrogant is trying to rise above being human (which I am not pointing as a comment to you).
Do you agree?
It is part of being human, to hit lows, yet the sinful part is letting it consume you and taking over the aspect of hope.
Hope is not the same thing as "wishes".
The best example is the sin of Judas. It led him to depression and he chose to stay down and wallow in it rather than trying to rise from that depression. He lost hope in himself and more importantly in God.
Each person has different vehicles in which to look for the rise from depression. Ultimately, regardless of what technique, God has to be at the center of the rise.
I respect ILSM with much respect (big ups ILSM lol) but I am not a fool so as to be convinced easily. I have done research, and consulted many priests, and a few bishops.
I wonder what you think of this?
ReturnOrthodoxy
I agree whole-heartedly. God has to be the center of the rise. But therapy does not mean that it is Godless. Man shall not live by bread ALONE. But that does not mean that bread is bad! We take our bread in thanks to God.
I see no reason to understand that depression is not a "choice" and that it has really medical and psychological basis, and to work through therapy in thanks to God.
ReturnOrthodoxy
Did you read HGBY?
Read and answer his points one by one. Tell me where you disgaree, and tell me why I should take your word (as a youth who has not studied the sciences to the degree of HGBY, and as a youth who has not the same level of pasotral care as HGBY who deals with this daily.)
Dont give me umbrella answers. They are meaningless.
RetrunOrthodoxy
^^ LOL what rubbish.
Atheism is the non belief of God. Thats all.
How do you "non-believe" in something? Who has EVER described themselves in terms of "non-belief"?
I mean, on one hand you're telling me that I had to seek god with all my heart and now you're telling me I had to desire god above all else. And I'm telling you, I've done both. And you can disagree with me, but its like you telling me that I have never seen the colour red. I know what I've experienced, and i have experienced the seeking and desire you're speaking of, which is exactly why I am not convinced with your response.
And if you want to argue that this desire and seeking are necessary preconditions to discover God, well it is clear that this is demonstrably false.
Why are you here? To reaffirm your "non-belief" in God? How foolish does someone have to be to use "non-belief" as if the absence of belief is how we have ever described ourselves? Atheism is a belief, you have to believe there is no God/gods, that does not make you special in any way, nor does it allow you to weasel your way out of arguments, like what "non-belief" has done for the world.
That is all this is to you; an argument. You don't seem to understand the degree to which what your saying is detrimental. I dont want to argue with you now or after khamaseen.
I think it is pitiful that you are going to come in, make some claims, and when asked to discuss, you say that you dont want to argue.
ReturnOrthodoxy<---Demon possessed according to some... I kinda like it. It has a ring to it. I remember that the jews said the same thing about Jesus
ILSM,
Since people only listen to you, do you agree that depression is a sin and that it is a choice?
TITL, from now on I want you to apply this foolish logic to all other illnesses that pertain to ANY other organ in the body. Born with a heart condition? Well, you chose that. That is essentially what you are saying, you are singling out the brain as being an organ that is in some way different than all other organs in that it cannot get sick. It is not the fault of those who become ill that psychiatry is a complete and utter joke and would choose to over medicate than to find the cause, thereby finding the solution, to the problem.
What especially does not help is carrying on this ignorant attitude that is so much a part of your culture. By making this statement you are isolating people who are sick and need help. You are placing blame on their shoulders and making them the guilty party, great thing to do when someone is depressed (sarcasm). The brain gets sick just as any other part of the body. But since you think that it is a choice to become ill, then follow through completely and reject all illness as the work of the devil, or the choice of the person.
I take offense to your statement, if you could not already tell.
[quote author=TITL link=topic=12687.msg154687#msg154687 date=1334678983]
ILSM,
Since people only listen to you, do you agree that depression is a sin and that it is a choice?
TITL, from now on I want you to apply this foolish logic to all other illnesses that pertain to ANY other organ in the body. Born with a heart condition? Well, you chose that. That is essentially what you are saying, you are singling out the brain as being an organ that is in some way different than all other organs in that it cannot get sick. It is not the fault of those who become ill that psychiatry is a complete and utter joke and would choose to over medicate than to find the cause, thereby finding the solution, to the problem.
What especially does not help is carrying on this ignorant attitude that is so much a part of your culture. By making this statement you are isolating people who are sick and need help. You are placing blame on their shoulders and making them the guilty party, great thing to do when someone is depressed (sarcasm). The brain gets sick just as any other part of the body. But since you think that it is a choice to become ill, then follow through completely and reject all illness as the work of the devil, or the choice of the person.
I take offense to your statement, if you could not already tell.
Me gusta!
Yes I must choose to have mood swings. I must choose to struggle every day of my life, not only with the mood swings, because who doesn't love mood swings, and with the ignorance so prevalent in your culture. Yes, I love having to go it alone becuase doctors are unwilling to find the root cause, and wonderfully humble and saintly people such as yourself, correctly point out that I choose to live in this misery. Gosh, you are SO right! (note, that this was sarcastic. also note, I am a bit upset with your statements)
[center]WORDS
OF
SPIRITUAL BENEFIT[/center]
[center]BY
H. H. POPE SHENOUDA III[/center]
Instead of hurting people, try to win them.....
God does not accept harsh words as He is gentle and loving, His mouth is full of sweetness and His lips drop honey.
I pray we can be more like our Father in Heaven.
O, Holy Trinity have mercy on us.
I would say the link you set by Bp. Youssef is the detailed answer of how I expressed myself.
RO, I really wish you hadn't deleted that post. It was beautiful. So many people benefited/could have benefited from it, including myself.
"Belief" is simply accepting a statement. "Non-belief" is therefore rejecting a statement. And just because you've never heard of a non-believer before, don't describe yourself as one, and don't know how to grammatically use the term, that doesn't mean its therefore invalid and foolish. You clearly haven't thought about this long enough nor have you spoken to enough people.
Just on your other completely irrelevant points Ioannes, I'm here to engage in discussions with people, if you don't like it or think that I have some kind of agenda, you can stop responding to my posts :)
Furthermore, whether atheism is not responsible for atrocities in the world doesn't make a slight bit of difference to arguments about the existence of god, nor does it make me feel special or morally superior.
Returnorthodoxy,
I read your post, and I really appreciate and feel privileged that you would open up and share your personal experience. I think I read that that was your first time to open up about something like that? Its a shame that people will undermine that because they have a very poor understanding of mental health issues and would just disregard it as some kind of demon possession. I can't stress enough how primitive that way of thinking is.
I have also experienced this kind of emotional pain, I went through depression and anxiety at a time where I was losing my belief, and the thing is I was a very lonely person already, and so it made it extra hard for me to cope since my belief that a god existed, would comfort me. So I hear what you're saying, and understand where you are coming from.
LOL don't worry about having been on my page lol, Im always on other people's pages, its why they exist :)
While some memes on my wall come across as insulting the Christian God, they more so point out the contradicting claims and actions of Christians and the claims and actions ascribed to their God by the Christians. I don't presuppose the existence of God and behave in such a way that he exists or might exist, for the former, I then wouldn't be an atheist otherwise, to the latter, whats to stop me from acting as if gods form other religions exist as well? Does that make sense?
P.s Adele had to undergo surgery as her vocal cords haemorrhaged and started bleeding - so you're in good company ;)
In regards to the discussion going on about mental health, we did a podcast with a counsellor discussing some of these issues, if anyone is interested:
http://soundcloud.com/concernedcopts/concerned-copts
and here's a website that has some really good information about depression, anxiety panic attacks etc. The website is an Australian national initiative fyi.
http://www.beyondblue.org.au
I like how you address these points, then consider everything else as "irrelevant". So what is relevant? Are historical facts relevant to you? Perhaps you were not referring to the post in which I described that Christ does exist, then used logic and reason to show why the evidence would infer that He is who the Gospel writers claim.
You certainly have an agenda here, you stated yourself, you are here to "engage in discussion with people", for what purpose I am not sure. So why don't you, if you already have not, address my points made about the existence of Christ and why it is more logical that He IS God as opposed to Him not being God.
I mean, we could argue all day about the new definition of atheism that many, not just you (yes I do talk to other atheists), seem to be creating for themselves for whatever reason, but in reality it is a non-sensical argument as you not only are seeking to re-define a word but how people describe what they believe.