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creationism VS evolution

kirollos3kirollos3
edited April 2012 in Faith Issues
ok i know we belive in creation. i do 100% no doubt. but i am taking AP bio i am a senior and i brought togther the EGGys in my class :) 5 of us against the teacher and students who belive in evo. and tomororw we stand against evolutionists in the class like a court case.
( so pray for me guys )


so my question is ( please ) could you give me anything sermon or article in what COPTICS stand for in creation because there is a million way. anything. i need something to know my basics i already know how to disprove evolution but now i wanna know what i belive in.

for examples : do we belive in 6 literal days or billions or "unknown"

Your son kirollos

Comments

  • copticyouth86copticyouth86
    Wow you can disprove evolution? I'd like to hear that.

    We actually talked about the age of the earth, in regards to some biblical interpretations with someone who studied science, and who is a christian.

    http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/21255383


    Let me know how it turns out, eh?
  • mabsootamabsoota
    look here, where we discussed it recently.
    http://tasbeha.org/content/community/index.php/topic,12908.msg151855.html#msg151855
    basically, some orthodox Christians believe in a literal 6 days; others do not.
    we all basically believe that God created the earth over some period of time, and God created man to be special, different to the animals. we have a conscience and can distinguish good from evil, because God has breathed into us His breath.

    as u don't have much time to prepare, i would suggest focusing on how God is present throughout the earth, whether it was formed by evolution or by Him bringing the plants and animals directly into the garden of eden in their final adult form.
    the laws of thermodynamics (all forms of energy are decaying) and statistics (things that are unlikely don't happen) are against the 'big bang'.
    so whether God created all the things directly, or whether He gave a huge boost of energy to a 'big bang' which He decided would happen, it is unlikely / nearly impossible for so much creativity and energy to have happened without a divine power controlling and energising the world.
  • Michael Boutros
    [quote author=mabsoota link=topic=13191.msg154779#msg154779 date=1334829591]
    look here, where we discussed it recently.
    http://tasbeha.org/content/community/index.php/topic,12908.msg151855.html#msg151855
    basically, some orthodox Christians believe in a literal 6 days; others do not.
    we all basically believe that God created the earth over some period of time, and God created man to be special, different to the animals. we have a conscience and can distinguish good from evil, because God has breathed into us His breath.

    as u don't have much time to prepare, i would suggest focusing on how God is present throughout the earth, whether it was formed by evolution or by Him bringing the plants and animals directly into the garden of eden in their final adult form.
    the laws of thermodynamics (all forms of energy are decaying) and statistics (things that are unlikely don't happen) are against the 'big bang'.
    so whether God created all the things directly, or whether He gave a huge boost of energy to a 'big bang' which He decided would happen, it is unlikely / nearly impossible for so much creativity and energy to have happened without a divine power controlling and energising the world.


    Be very careful with that argument. It simply isn't true. Many, many things are "practically" impossible but the only way something is statistically impossible is if it's probability is 0. Winning the lottery is practically impossible, but of course it happens. Rare birth defects (only one or two reported cases in all of history) are "practically" impossible, but they certainly happen.

    In summary: just because something most likely couldn't have happened doesn't mean it didn't happen.
  • ilovesaintmarkilovesaintmark
    You mean like the atomic speck from which came the Big Bang.  Something from nothing.
  • ilovesaintmarkilovesaintmark
    Although in my conduct I have been known to be a baboon at times.  I should not say that because that may lend validity to evolution.
  • George_Mina_Awad
    ILSM, you're starting to recycle jokes here.
  • ilovesaintmarkilovesaintmark
    Sorry Jimmy, I was not cognizant of the repetition.

    I will revise:  I have been known to be an ape at times.  I should not say that because that may lend validity to evolution.

    I look like a chimpanzee, which would definitely prove evolution.

    I laugh like a hyena, which would prove I am a hyena.

  • JoshuaaJoshuaa

    Mabsoota is correct on what Coptics think so I would use those arguements.
     
  • kirollos3kirollos3
    ahha, well we still have tomorrow. and i have been reading alot. and thanks for the links. but i think the fact that copts belive in either 6 or millions of years isn't good. ALL COPTS should be on the same page and i know for sure that god didn't give energy for the big bang. because than we are giving up for evolution to try to belive it.

    Pope shenouda didn't really talk much about it did he ??
  • ChristrulesChristrules
    This is a very important topic and it is one that we have discussed before in our Youth Group. We watched a presentation by one of the scientists working on the genome project, who happened to be a Christian, talking about the issue.

    We concluded that evolution is not impossible, improbable, or unlikely. In fact, it has been proven. But the one thing that hasn't been proven is human evolution. This is where you have to try and make the distinction. Try to focus your debate on this, that there is no proof of human evolution.

    I am under the belief, and it does not oppose our Christian beliefs, that it is futile and naive to argue against microevolution and the changing of one species slightly to adapt to a new surrounding because it has been proven. Further, it is not beyond the power of God to allow one animal to mutate into another he doesn't have to create a new species from scratch every time he wishes to add another one. Does God have one way to do things? Is he limited to creating life in one way? Absolutely not, he can create it in many different ways and again, this is but one of the explanations we can give. Another thing I would like to add, is that many of the Church fathers has said many times that the six days were not literally six days. They back this statement up by quoting the verse "With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day." - 2 Peter 3:8. In those 6 days, few thousand years or what have you many species were brought and extinct many were formed and died out in preparation for the creation of man. It is not beyond God to allow these things to happen and just because the bible doesn't spell it out for us doesn't mean it didn't happen.

    I want you to remember that science does not go against religion or God. One explains how things are made or how they came to exist (God) and the other how it works (science). Who's to say the big bang didn't happen? Does it mean God doesn't exist? Absolutely not, it's just one way of explaining how God created the universe. I would like to remind you that God loves beauty and he put it around us in sunsets, the ocean and so forth. Who's to say that he didn't use this beautiful way to create the universe?

    I apologize for the long post but this topic is really important to me because I have been searching for answers a long time and I have been fought by these questions many a time. I would love to hear what the community thinks about my opinion.
  • My_Coptic_Church1My_Coptic_Church1
    This is a largely discussed argument.
    Last year i started evolution in my eighth grade class and I am reviewing it again this year in Freshman Biology.
    I spoke with my father of confession and he told me that there are three kinds of beliefs: The strict literal belief that God created the universe in six days, the belief of evolution, and the one I believe in: that god did create everything but in an indefinate amount of time.
    We can never know if the six days that was said for the universe to be created in was really six days. it could have been six days or six million years. we never know. but the important thing is to remember that the Lord our God created everything. Also we can never find out the source of the earth and its surroundings.
    For example the Big Bang theory, could be just that, a theory, or it could be real. In class when these discussions come up i just usually keep in mind that God is probably behind everything that happens and the way that the Lord works is a mystery to us all. :D
    +God Bless.+
  • mabsootamabsoota
    this is a good summary.
    we don't have to all believe the same in this, but we need to remember that the theories we learn in school are just theories.
    they may be true, but they are not as important as realising God is the creator and He has made us to have a relationship with Him.

    edit:
    from today's readings:
    Col 1:12-23
    giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light. He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.

    He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

    For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

    And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight-- if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.
  • kirollos3kirollos3
    i agree with you guys, and thanks christrules.  i understand what you mean. but of course we believe that God created us. but what I've heard  is what john has to do with the creation he wasn't talking about it. and well why do we take those as a symbolic 6 days but the rest of the bible as a true story. is it okay for us to take what we want and put it as a symbol and then take the rest as a true story. we all know Moses existed, so did Joseph and so did Abraham Issac and Jacob ? so why do we sometimes try to blend theories with our understanding ? does that mean we are starting to agree with them that we are trying to imply that they are always right.


    and mabsoota. yes i agree they are just theories. but science still can't explain everything so why can we trust their "theories" now .

    i understand. and i probobly know that we believe that 6 days were either 6 days or 6 millions years. and that maybe Moses knew that we might not understand so he had to put it in simpler terms for our little brains to understand it.
  • JoshuaaJoshuaa

    2 Peter 3:8  But, beloved, do not be ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
     
      God is eternal. He was there at the start and will be there at the finish. Time is less important but what is more important is direction. How else would God get us to come back to him other than believing the direction he has given us.

    If 2 Peter3:11-12 are true then I would like to be with the true bride of christ in the forfillment of the Lords promise. I would like to think that any faults or weaknesses will perish once I am with him.
  • kirollos3kirollos3
    yes that is true. but isn't he god. we are saying it took him 6 millions years to make an earth. he is God he could make it with a few words. isn't that what happened . he said let there be light and immediately it happened. there are always questions to be answered, and Age of earth isn't always one of them. people sometimes try to blend both in to make it more believable like saying God maybe created that first thing. that exploded and then first unicellular organism emerged. and that Adam and eve might just simply be cavemen that are the parents of all of us. how do i answer them because we clearly believe that there were no other humans before them. and we are ALL ancestors of Adam and Eve
  • IoannesIoannes
    Most of the "evidence" is conjecture. Yes there are fossils, but what does this mean? Well, you have to accept Charles Lyell's idea of the earths strata representing ages of the earth. What I am fascinated by is that nobody points out that the vast majority of fossils, dinosaur in particular, are found completely intact. Some with food still in their stomach, some eggs, even a fossil of a velociraptor fighting another dinosaur. It seems rather peculiar that all these dinosaurs died and did not decay before being fossilized. No other animal scavenged them or anything.

    I would also look into genetic entropy. We know that DNA is breaking down, evolutionists say that these mutations are what lead to evolutionary gain, which logically makes no sense. Genetic entropy says that our DNA is breaking down and that we came from a genetically perfect, or near perfect, being. This, oddly enough, is also prevalent in the vedic texts.

    See my book in which I have a sections where I discuss the things many scientists say prove evolution, but in reality they do not in any way prove evolution.
  • kirollos3kirollos3
    yes exacly, i agree and there are many other reasons and evidence to prove creation. and we all know Evolution is wrong, its not proven and it shouldn't be part of science yet i must study it for the test coming up 14 of may and i don't believe in it at all. they should bring a Huge debate. for everything in this world i mean a debate from all religions, believes and even agnostics and atheists to debate everything and maybe end this. but once again we are all different people never agree on one thing.
  • JoshuaaJoshuaa

      14th of May, that's my birthday. The day I was created.
  • mark.naguib7
    [quote author=Joshuaa link=topic=13191.msg155198#msg155198 date=1335994435]

      14th of May, that's my birthday. The day I was created.


    Well, Happy early emancipation of the womb day :)
  • JoshuaaJoshuaa


    Well, Happy early emancipation of the womb day :)


    That made me laugh. Thanks.
  • mark.naguib7
    [quote author=Joshuaa link=topic=13191.msg155206#msg155206 date=1336003339]


    Well, Happy early emancipation of the womb day :)


    That made me laugh. Thanks.


    ;)
  • George_Mina_Awad
    [quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=13191.msg155199#msg155199 date=1335995668]
    [quote author=Joshuaa link=topic=13191.msg155198#msg155198 date=1335994435]

      14th of May, that's my birthday. The day I was created.


    Well, Happy early emancipation of the womb day :)


    Ahaha love this!  ;D
  • IoannesIoannes
    The process of fossilization is generally accepted as being a long process. If this is true, which it has to be for the fossil record to be taken seriously, why are the more fish fossils than any other fossil? Has anyone actually seen a fish sink to the bottom, then miraculously did not have his body scavenged or ravaged by the natural process of death? Then over a long period of time became covered with sediments and became fossilized....all the while remaining intact? It is absurdity, darwinian evolution cannot explain this, nor can it explain the anomalies within the fossil record that have cause some to scramble and come up with "punctuated equilibrium" to explain it.

    The flood is a perfect model to explain why there are so many fossilized fish. The fossil evidence is conjecture anyways, how is it that so many of these creatures are complete and intact? sometimes you can even see where the feathers were, or you can see them in the middle of eating or fighting, what gives? When anything dies, it is picked apart and gradually deteriorates, rarely does it every stay complete long enough to be fossilized. I mean, simple logic takes that idea apart.
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