Hey all,
I have a problem, and I created this account specifically for the purpose of addressing it. But before I do, but I want to give a bit of background first to maybe place it into context. I'm really sorry for the length, but there's a lot I need to get off my chest (and this might not even be all of it).I apologize in advance if anything I say comes off as harsh. Here goes:
I was raised in the Coptic church for the vast majority of my life. It was all I ever knew and all I ever needed. There was nothing this world could offer me that could even try to compare to Christ.
I am also very inquisitive by nature, and because of this, I love learning and science. I also learned to think critically when I was really little. I don't like the idea of accepting things just because someone in a position of authority (professor, etc.) tells me they're true. I should be able to look into them and determine why they are true, or at least if the evidence is compelling enough that the thing is likely true.
About a year ago, it dawned on me that I had never applied this process to my Coptic faith. We have the Bible, and it seems to make sense, and that was that. So I asked myself a very simple question: How do we know that Christianity is true? (or any religion for that matter). I still don't have an answer. And with each passing month, I seem to be finding more compelling evidence that it is actually not true.
The first thing that seriously started me on this path was the argument I heard in church that evolution is false. My degree is in biology, and after weighing the evidence, I could come to no other conclusion other than to accept evolution (though I initially did not want to). And when I seriously looked into the reasons given for its supposed falseness, I was blown away by how flawed the reasoning was. But, at the time, I told myself that evolution and the Bible could still be true simultaneously.
However, this had the effect of getting me to look into other arguments I'd heard in church, the ones for "why we know God exists". The more seriously I started picking them apart, the more flimsy they seemed, until finally, there was almost nothing left.
In addition to this, there seems to be evidence (and/or lack thereof) against certain portions in the Bible. Science seems to conflict with the Flood, archaeology seems to conflict with the Exodus, and I found numerous others. The New Testament also seems to be questionable. To call this disturbing would be a huge understatement.
I want to mention that while I was going through this process, I prayed with tears constantly, because no argument or evidence could possibly hope to match any answer He gave me. But no answers came, and the evidence kept piling. I thought at first that I was being arrogant by asking God himself to help me, so I turned to St. Mary, then other saints, asking them for something, anything. Nothing.
So, last November, I concluded, against my will, that there is in all likelihood no God. I did not eat or sleep for days after this happened. My entire worldview was radically altered in a way I'm not sure I can properly explain.
Here's the thing: I want to be wrong about this. I really want to be wrong about this.
I want you to tell me what's missing from this picture. I'll tell you all I've done and read, and what I accept and don't accept. Help me. Please.
I've looked into all of the arguments for God's existence (Cosmological, Teleological, Ontological, Argument from Design, Argument from Morality, etc.). I don't buy any of them, with the possible exception of the Cosmological as it's explained in Aquineas' Five Ways (I haven't read enough yet to form a solid opinion on this).
I've looked at it scientifically, and this has raised several issues. One of the bigger ones is obviously related to evolution. I've seen that some of you actually do accept evolution, so this question is specifically for you guys: How do you reconcile evolution with the creation story? And, equally important, WHY would He choose to make his creation in such a way that makes it as though divine intervention is not needed?
Science also raises questions about the literalness of specific events in the Bible, the Flood being a big one. I've looked into it as thoroughly as I know how, and there doesn't seem to be evidence for it. In fact, there is absence of evidence. Floods should leave pretty specific evidence behind, but we don't see any such thing to indicate a global flood, at any point in earth's history. There also doesn't seem to be any biological evidence of the genetic bottlenecks that should have happened when all of earth's species supposedly went nearly extinct. So is the flood a literal story or not, and how do we know?
I've also looked into the Bible itself, its composition, its authors, etc. What I've learned was depressing to say the least.
I've read the Case for Christ and Mere Christianity, and some of Augustine's writings, and didn't find them helpful. I'd planned to read Chesterton next.
My faith has become nonexistent. I don't know how else to say it. It seems that right now all I'm doing is wishful thinking, because all logic and evidence so far tells me that there is nothing else out there. And feelings are too subjective to be a reliable source of information.
I realize that there are a bazillion possible topics to be addressed here, and I apologize. But I had to get it all out in the open. If this needs to be separated into different threads, I'll do it. And I will gladly elaborate on anything I said here.
I also apologize for any impression of disrespect or arrogance here. This is literally the most important question a person can investigate, and I have to give it all I've got.
Comments
There are more questions I struggle with now, in addition to the ones I posted above. These are questions "on the other side of the coin", that make me wonder if maybe there is something out there after all.
Why is there something instead of nothing? (Not "how did the universe begin", but "why is there even a universe in the first place?")
Why does the universe follow rules? Why does math work? There is no logical necessity for the universe to follow any sort of rules that we can predict mathematically, and yet that is exactly what we have.
I know that these by themselves don't prove anything, but I think about them often.
Hello K-man,
I visited my cousins farm during Christmas. Some of it is hilly and near the top he showed me where gravel had fallen away revealing seashell vossils. This is 3000 feet above sea level. How do you expain this. I wonder if there are others like this that are even higher than this.
The question I have for you is: If God wanted us to go back to him when the world ends how would he of done this? I don't think he would do it by showing us evidence of what this world has to offer. The bible is spiritaul and as such evidence goes in that direction. If we are to follow that then we would find it hard to get any hope in old bones that say this is your identity. No, I believe we're more than that.
If we establish a baseline of what you consider rational, strong evidence and what is not, then we can move on to discuss all of your questions.
I sympathize with you because I have been going through the exact same problem. Let me tell you that it is the most painful experience known to man. Us Copts tend to focus our entire life on God. We go to church for God, we hang out with our Coptic friends who inspire us to be better people. We go to school because we want to serve God with our knowledge. Then, to go through a period and think that it has all been a hallucination... well it is excruciatingly painful to say the least. It is like that line from the movie A beautiful mind where a genius mathematician is diagnosed with schizophrenia. When his wife asks the doctor why her husband is so upset, the doctor replies, (I'm paraphrasing) "Imagine waking up one day, and realizing that all your memories, all your accomplishments and friends are not gone, but never even existed." So yes, I can certainly agree that it is painful. I actually, at one point on this forum spoke about the effects of this loss of faith, and how it manifested itself in me with deep physical pain. You are not alone in the struggle.
Like, you, evolution was my starting point, until I began to do some research. It seems to me that evolution is compatible with the faith, but using what many would call a radical change in view of the genesis account. Maybe you would like to listen to Dr. Alister McGrath speaking about this issue. He is a theistic evolutionary biologist. As for the other things in the Bible, there is certainly truth to them. I recommend that you balance out your research. I remember being in your shoes, I would only go to look in certain atheist websites, thinking that Christian apologetics are just stupid. Turns out they are not. Check some of these guys out:
-William Lane Craig
-John Lennox
-Rai Zacharias
-Alister McGrath
-Dinesh D'Souza There must have been something in the air because last November is exactly when my doubts became very intense! Don't worry, it slowly gets better. And I know the feeling of wanting to be wrong. I get it. And here is some good news for you... you are wrong.
I see no arrogance on your part whatsoever. I find you inquisitive. But I must give you a small tip. It may seem petty, but listen to it anyways. I looked at the saints, and I realize that they have been given much power fro God. They did miracles. I do believe in these miracles. The appearance of the Virgin Mary in Zeitoun. I think it means something. So I don't know all the answers, but I know God does, and I know that the saints didn't know them eaither; they didn't care. Try not to care to much.
We know God by spiritual means. I can say that to you because you are not an atheist. Don't lump yourself with the atheists and claim that you need their burden of proof. They set the bar to high. They want God to meet their burden of proof. God simply doesn't want to. Continue to pray, fast, prostrate and take communion.
Find yourself a spiritual father who is educated and who can understand you. Speak to him. come onto this site, and empty yourself whenever you need it. I am not a genius, but I know that we have many geniuses on this site.
The Late Fr. Matta El Meskeen (one of my favorite Orthodox Fathers) wrote the following: Follow his words, and trust that you will be better.
You are not an atheist. The devil want you to think you are. That is how he wins. When he comes to you, say, "These are your thoughts, Satan, not mine. Get behind me. May your blasphemy be upon your head."
Good luck
ReturnOrthodoxy
R.O.
[quote author=Joshuaa link=topic=13328.msg155832#msg155832 date=1337679127]
The question I have for you is: If God wanted us to go back to him when the world ends how would he of done this? I don't think he would do it by showing us evidence of what this world has to offer. The bible is spiritaul and as such evidence goes in that direction. If we are to follow that then we would find it hard to get any hope in old bones that say this is your identity. No, I believe we're more than that.
I'm not sure I understand. Can you explain what you mean by this question?
Remnkemi: Yeah, I tend to view the world very logically.
I found Case for Christ to be incredibly biased, and it skimmed over (or ignored) information that was contrary to the claims it was making. Mere Christianity I think is only helpful if you already believe what it's saying from the outset (and Lewis's Trilemma is incomplete). For Augustine's writings, to be fair, I only looked at a small sample, so those I should probably revisit. And i haven't read enough Aquinas yet to form an opinion on his work.
I'm a scientist, and in order to prove something in the lab we have to be extremely rigorous. One experiment or line of evidence isn't enough to prove your mechanism - you also have to rule out other alternatives. If we're this strict about trivial earthly things, then there's no way I can be any less strict about a question of this magnitude. Does that help?
I want to first introduce myself because we both have eerily similar backgrounds.
I, too, grew up in the coptic church and in a coptic family. I always accepted it and didn't question it too much until early highschool when every aspect of christianity which you mentioned came into question. For a while, I told people I was an atheist and unlike you, I did not want to believe in Christ.
However, now i am almost done with college and it seems that you and I have come to different conclusions regarding the new testament, accuracy of the bible (esp the OT), Christ, the church, evolution, and I assume other things.
I want to share something with you that you might find offensive but I don't mean it to be: you do believe in Christ. You do! Belief in God comes from the heart! I think you do believe in your heart, but the rational part of your head can't wrap itself around all of the answers and thus you are having trouble believing in God with all of yourself. I too have the same problem from time to time, but I personally feel your desire and heart are indicative of a believer. I think your head does not believe but your heart does. We need to let Christ consume our hearts until our head is on-board. I don't mean that we need to neglect logic and fudge knowledge.....but we need to find the answers to the questions we can and should ask; not the ones that don't matter to us.
As for your specific points...
1) evolution: everyone has their opinion, but evolutionary theory and Creation fit beautifully (i am a bio major and i'm actually in tears while writing this because of how beautiful the creation story is when we contemplate the love of God as He used a process to form us, not just a whimsical decree) The order of creation fits perfectly with the evolutionary order or organisms and most physicists and cosmologists actually look to Genesis for possible theory sources. The idea that "days" of creation were not actual days is consistent with theology and science (moses said "days" before the sun was even created) and there are hundreds of books that are quite convincing of the harmony between the two. I would even go as far as saying that evolution is cold and heartless without Genesis and Genesis is a fantasy without evolution. Augustine and St. Macrina (from the 4th century, i believe) allude to evolution as proof for the existence of God. A great resource for me is biologos.com (although some stuff is iffy to me). It's actually run by the director of NIH. Also, books by Dr. Schroeder have influenced me a lot. It's interesting....we've both examined the same evidence as scientists but have come to diff conclusions. Once again, i think it comes down to letting your soul trump your head. Your mind can always be swayed by argument, but spiritual conviction can never be argued.
2) Evidence for Flood, Exodus, NT: This stuff gets tricky, because there's an equally infinite amount of evidence for either side of the argument. A quick google search will lead you to many links with evidence for and against these topics. In terms of the OT, there will never be definitive proof of either conclusion. If you believe these events did not occur, then you are taking a leap of faith. If you do believe these events occured, you are also taking a leap of faith. You can search for the evidence your whole life, which people do, and still have to make a leap of faith (i must point out that there is historical record of a mass exodus of Jews leaving Egypt and some archaeological proof of some unexpected natural diasters aka plagues, but then again....nothing definitive). the real question is: do these stories accurately describe reality? Do these stories, whether factually true or not, speak to our soul in truth and convict us to desire and love God more? I think we would both agree that they do. We are certain of that even though the physical evidence could go either way. As for the NT......i'm sorry but idk where your sources of info are from, but the NT is actually the most reliable piece of text from that period of time. Over 30,000 copied manuscripts existed within the first few centuries with barely any variation. That's more reliable than any other text from that time, but nobody ever refutes their authenticity. You might be referring to the formation or canonization of the Bible...if the process seems iffy to you, take comfort in the fact that we do not belive the Bible is the end all be all of texts for that very reason (Church fathers). Also, archaeology shows that ancient lectionaries of the 1st and 2nd centuries have complete accurate texts of the NT, which would mean that the NT was in circulation before the NT was actually ever canonized. Of course, you can find evidence to contradict this....anybody with a degree in anything can sound credible these days. Pick your sources wisely, dude.
3) This isn't really a specific point, but I see a lot of myself in you and I want to tell you with all brotherly love and respect: you cannot believe in God first with your head. Believe in your heart first (St. Augustine in his Confessions essentially comes to the same conclusion.....A MUST READ btw). I can explain morality with science ....that means God doesn't exist? God's existence is not dependent on anything....God Is. So, I can try to explain everything with science, but we forgot that scientific laws and principles are products of God. As I always tell people: The world is filled with just enough information for investigation, but God still leaves us with wonder and mystery. Answers to questions that matter like: what is the remedy for this sick world? Where do us sinners go from here? Where does my life come from? are all questions that can be answered but questions like "why did God use evolution?" or "What's the point of an appendix"? (i kid i kid) are meaningless. The answers to those questions don't help us in any way, you know what I mean? A good resource for theistic and athestic argumentation is rzim.org. The speaker's name is Ravi Zacharias...he too was an atheist and now atheist don't even want to debate him. Listen to some of his lectures or podcasts, i think you'll like it.
4) This question is what sparked my re-conversion into Christianity: What the heck happened on Resurrection Sunday morning? An unbiased historical and logical analysis of the events surrounding that weekend and the years after show that there's no explanation for what happened. If I want to believe in God, which we both do, then the only thing to conclude is that something freaky happened. Something impossible happened....aka a dead man rose from the dead. Once that conclusion is established, everything begins to make sense. That's one item of history that just cannot be debated....so we can talk all day about God's existence, authenticity of OT and NT and authorship and all of this relatively meaningless stuff. The only real straight-up undeniable conclusion is something unnatural or supernatural happened that sunday morning. That conclusion has set up my mindset for approaching all of the other questions we have talked about.
I personally invite you to private message me. I love your questions, your desire for truth, and your willingness to pray and let God direct your conclusions. I love you because you actually question and search. I love it and so does God. I will pray for you, not in a patronizing way, but in tears as if I am you....because in some ways, we are the same.
Stay thirsty, my friend :)
Pray for me and i apologize for such a long-winded response
humility13
[quote author=ReturnOrthodoxy link=topic=13328.msg155839#msg155839 date=1337701893]
K-man,
I sympathize with you because I have been going through the exact same problem. Let me tell you that it is the most painful experience known to man. Us Copts tend to focus our entire life on God. We go to church for God, we hang out with our Coptic friends who inspire us to be better people. We go to school because we want to serve God with our knowledge. Then, to go through a period and think that it has all been a hallucination... well it is excruciatingly painful to say the least. It is like that line from the movie A beautiful mind where a genius mathematician is diagnosed with schizophrenia. When his wife asks the doctor why her husband is so upset, the doctor replies, (I'm paraphrasing) "Imagine waking up one day, and realizing that all your memories, all your accomplishments and friends are not gone, but never even existed." So yes, I can certainly agree that it is painful. I actually, at one point on this forum spoke about the effects of this loss of faith, and how it manifested itself in me with deep physical pain. You are not alone in the struggle.
Thank you. This is exactly how it feels.
[quote author=ReturnOrthodoxy link=topic=13328.msg155839#msg155839 date=1337701893]
Like, you, evolution was my starting point, until I began to do some research. It seems to me that evolution is compatible with the faith, but using what many would call a radical change in view of the genesis account. Maybe you would like to listen to Dr. Alister McGrath speaking about this issue. He is a theistic evolutionary biologist. As for the other things in the Bible, there is certainly truth to them. I recommend that you balance out your research. I remember being in your shoes, I would only go to look in certain atheist websites, thinking that Christian apologetics are just stupid. Turns out they are not. Check some of these guys out:
Interesting. I'll give McGrath a look. And I've seen countless Craig debates (a friend of mine loves him lol), and a few of Ravi Zacharias. They didn't do it for me. But I will look into the ones I haven't seen.
[quote author=ReturnOrthodoxy link=topic=13328.msg155839#msg155839 date=1337701893]
I see no arrogance on your part whatsoever. I find you inquisitive. But I must give you a small tip. It may seem petty, but listen to it anyways. I looked at the saints, and I realize that they have been given much power fro God. They did miracles. I do believe in these miracles. The appearance of the Virgin Mary in Zeitoun. I think it means something. So I don't know all the answers, but I know God does, and I know that the saints didn't know them eaither; they didn't care. Try not to care to much.
Easier said than done :/
[quote author=ReturnOrthodoxy link=topic=13328.msg155839#msg155839 date=1337701893]
We know God by spiritual means. I can say that to you because you are not an atheist. Don't lump yourself with the atheists and claim that you need their burden of proof. They set the bar to high. They want God to meet their burden of proof. God simply doesn't want to. Continue to pray, fast, prostrate and take communion.
I must disagree with this. I think they have a good point.
Say i'm a nonbeliever, and someone comes up to me one day and says "Hey, God exists, and what's more, he's the Muslim God". My response would be "Great. How do you know?". (and of course I wouldn't get a satisfactory answer). Something this important absolutely needs some kind of thing to back it up.
[quote author=ReturnOrthodoxy link=topic=13328.msg155839#msg155839 date=1337701893]
Find yourself a spiritual father who is educated and who can understand you. Speak to him. come onto this site, and empty yourself whenever you need it. I am not a genius, but I know that we have many geniuses on this site.
I've spoken to a lot of priests (and a bishop or two), but I don't know what educational backgrounds most of them had. Let's try. And thank you, a lot.
[quote author=ReturnOrthodoxy link=topic=13328.msg155839#msg155839 date=1337701893]
The Late Fr. Matta El Meskeen (one of my favorite Orthodox Fathers) wrote the following: Follow his words, and trust that you will be better.
Unfortunately, easier said than done at the stage I'm in now.
[quote author=ReturnOrthodoxy link=topic=13328.msg155839#msg155839 date=1337701893]
You are not an atheist. The devil want you to think you are. That is how he wins. When he comes to you, say, "These are your thoughts, Satan, not mine. Get behind me. May your blasphemy be upon your head."
I used to say that a lot actually. But how do we know he even exists? That's my dilemma.
[quote author=ReturnOrthodoxy link=topic=13328.msg155839#msg155839 date=1337701893]
Good luck
Thanks, man (or woman).
[quote author=ReturnOrthodoxy link=topic=13328.msg155839#msg155839 date=1337701893]
I see no arrogance on your part whatsoever. I find you inquisitive. But I must give you a small tip. It may seem petty, but listen to it anyways. I looked at the saints, and I realize that they have been given much power fro God. They did miracles. I do believe in these miracles. The appearance of the Virgin Mary in Zeitoun. I think it means something. So I don't know all the answers, but I know God does, and I know that the saints didn't know them eaither; they didn't care. Try not to care to much.
Easier said than done :/
Yet I think this may be the biggest key to this whole thing. Yes, it is easier said than done, but it does not have to be impossible when you willingly submit to it. This trust alone will create miracles.
[quote author=humility13 link=topic=13328.msg155842#msg155842 date=1337703247]
However, now i am almost done with college and it seems that you and I have come to different conclusions regarding the new testament, accuracy of the bible (esp the OT), Christ, the church, evolution, and I assume other things.
Mhm, I think you're right, we have.
[quote author=humility13 link=topic=13328.msg155842#msg155842 date=1337703247]
I want to share something with you that you might find offensive but I don't mean it to be: you do believe in Christ. You do! Belief in God comes from the heart! I think you do believe in your heart, but the rational part of your head can't wrap itself around all of the answers and thus you are having trouble believing in God with all of yourself. I too have the same problem from time to time, but I personally feel your desire and heart are indicative of a believer. I think your head does not believe but your heart does. We need to let Christ consume our hearts until our head is on-board. I don't mean that we need to neglect logic and fudge knowledge.....but we need to find the answers to the questions we can and should ask; not the ones that don't matter to us.
I see what you're saying, but I must disagree. If my feelings and my rational mind contradict each other, I have to side with the mind. Feelings are subjective and fleeting, and I don't trust them alone as a source of information. And I do think these are important questions, otherwise I wouldn't ask them lol.
[quote author=humility13 link=topic=13328.msg155842#msg155842 date=1337703247]
As for your specific points...
1) evolution: everyone has their opinion, but evolutionary theory and Creation fit beautifully (i am a bio major and i'm actually in tears while writing this because of how beautiful the creation story is when we contemplate the love of God as He used a process to form us, not just a whimsical decree) The order of creation fits perfectly with the evolutionary order or organisms and most physicists and cosmologists actually look to Genesis for possible theory sources.
I used to feel the exact same way (tears and everything) until I learned more. The order of creation does not fit perfectly with the evolutionary order (I used to think this as well). But the evidence tells us the opposite: reptiles came first, then birds. Birds were not first.
Or, if you look at Chapter Two where things seem to be created in a different order: So aside from Adam being made before animals in this account (which seems to contradict the first account directly), evolutionary theory again tells us that humans are pretty late to the party (i.e. these lineages were around way before the hominid lineage). And this also makes it sound like Adam was around before dinosaurs to name them, which we all know isn't the case.
A third point is that, according to the way evolution works, there was never a point where there were only two living humans. The species wouldn't have survived. But you can counter this by saying that God took care of them until there were enough of them to make it on their own.
Finally....at what point did we acquire souls? Hominids lived and died pointlessly for millions of years just so that God could pick two of them and give them souls? This part gives me a lot of trouble. Yeah, both Augustine and Origen support the idea that the days were not literal 24 hour days. I'm good with the timing of this.
However, this just raises further questions. For example, the Genesis account has the earth forming before the sun, when physics and the understanding of solar system formation tells us the opposite. Francis Collins has a website? I'll take a look. And I'll look at Schroeder.
And again, I must respectfully disagree that the soul should trump the mind. That shouldn't be how it works though....If there is evidence that it happened, then it probably happened. If there is not evidence that it happened, then it probably didn't happen. What it depends on is how the evidence is weighed by the individual, which I think is what leads us to different conclusions. My personal view is that there is no evidence to support it, and therefore it probably didn't happen. Can you link me to this? I haven't seen anything like this in my search. My understanding is that there are actually no records of there even being Jews in Egypt in the first place. So if you have something that says otherwise, I really need to read it. I'm actually not sure I would agree with this. And say someone new is just reading the Bible for the first time, and they happen to flip to one of these stories and start reading (that's how I'm approaching this, as if I'm new to it all). I don't think that these stories would convict them to desire God more. Scholarly historical consensus is actually that the manuscripts have been modified many times throughout the centuries. This is actually a point I was recently discussing with someone. The vast majority of New Testament scholars do not hold that the copies of the manuscripts are the same. In some cases, entire passages have been inserted that do not show up in any of the oldest manuscripts, but they made it into our Bible now. They also don't hold that the authors of the Gospels are the people that they are named after, which also raises huge problems for me. Can you send me sources to back up the stuff you're saying? I can send you an outline I made while debating a servant of my former church, with citations (that you can view online).
And you're right, canonization is also a huge point for me. I have never heard anyone claim that the Biblical canon existed before the 2nd Century. I have sources that seem to indicate otherwise. This was something I also brought up in the outline, so pm me if you want it, or I'll attach it here, let me know. And please send me any sources you have about canonization. But how do we know that he made the laws? That's my problem.
If He exists, He is obviously the remedy. If He doesn't, then there is no remedy, and we do the best we can with what we've got. Same with sin. "Sin" only exists if the Bible is true, in the same way that karma would only exist if the Hindu religion was true. Otherwise they're abstract concepts with no real basis. And I think I see what you're saying, but not having an answer to those would bother me tremendously. This presupposes that the Gospel accounts are accurate though, which I'm not sure is the case. That means a lot. Thank you.
I just wanted to drop by this book I found online a while ago, that addresses a lot of the scientific things. I haven't read through it yet (in progress, actually) but it looks to answer many questions.
http://www.stmaryscopticorthodox.ca/content/books/creation.pdf
edit: Have you read their article on the Flood? What do you think of it?
Hello K-man,
I was trying to get you to look at the other side if the arguement by puting yourself in what God is about. If there is a God how would he get us to go back to him?Would he do it in anyother way than the way he is doing it. I'm saying the things in this world are opposed to that. That is why they have different directions.
I personally know him to be true, by the way things have happened in my life, and this is a relationship I cannot say isn't true and I understand this as a more true identity than what that opposes it has to offer. The connection of lineage, including the Coptic Church, is all true in direction of what is in the bible, so I must follow.
Thanks for the link. He covers a lot of information, but unfortunately a lot of the biology stuff he says is contrary to current scientific understanding (I can't speak for the physics stuff).
Joshuaa: I dunno. I feel that if He wanted us to come to Him, there are much easier ways to go about it than this.
You may be seeking an answer, but perhaps you're asking the wrong question.
childoforthodoxy
True, noetic prayer is worth more than a thousand words spoken in discussion.
You may be seeking an answer, but perhaps you're asking the wrong question.
childoforthodoxy
Wow,
I certainly agree with you COO, but I remember my time of struggle. When I stood up to pray, that Agpeya would be out of my hand violently within 2 minutes. Holding a Bible turns into lead. Contemplation on God turns into a philosophical debate. So yes I certainly agree that prayer is of utmost importance, but let me go ahead an quote St. Isaac the Syrian: Sometimes, it is difficult to skip to the noetic prayer. So, yes you are correct that noetic prayer is the most important, but God understands that we are feeble and that we cannot jump into the noetic from the depths of struggle. We may need to just relax, and sleep a little. Maybe just let go for a little.
ReturnOrthodoxy
The goal here should be attaining noetic prayer. This entails several steps that have surely been outlined by the Fathers. The goal is not to fit God into what we have observed around us. Noetic prayer does not come in a moment, but one can begin now to attempt to pursue it, using various means outlined by their spiritual guide.
True knowledge will come from true repentance. When we cease to examine the world with what we feel is rational, and begin to examine our hearts in the light of Christ, all other things become illuminated in this Light, and we see things for what they are.
Truth will not be arrived at by means of discussion. Nor will one accomplish it by himself. Subject yourself to obedience under the watchful eye of one who is spiritually advanced, and you will receive the Grace that the Holy Spirit wishes to give you.
ReturnOrthodoxy: You totally get it. Thank you.
No problem. I'm telling you, not only do I get it, I was there. I know what it is like.
I recommend you read "Spiritual Languor: Coping with Spiritual Paralysis" by Fr. Matta El Meskeen. If you think I get it, he gets it 10 times more (surprising for a monk of that spiritual and theological level)!
Although times are rough, continue to try to pray. If you can't give it time, but don't stop the attempt. I used to feel disgusted, and anrgy when I prayed. I somewhat still struggle, but it gets better.
ReturnOrthodoxy
Perhaps I should clarify...
The goal here should be attaining noetic prayer. This entails several steps that have surely been outlined by the Fathers. The goal is not to fit God into what we have observed around us. Noetic prayer does not come in a moment, but one can begin now to attempt to pursue it, using various means outlined by their spiritual guide.
True knowledge will come from true repentance. When we cease to examine the world with what we feel is rational, and begin to examine our hearts in the light of Christ, all other things become illuminated in this Light, and we see things for what they are.
Truth will not be arrived at by means of discussion. Nor will one accomplish it by himself. Subject yourself to obedience under the watchful eye of one who is spiritually advanced, and you will receive the Grace that the Holy Spirit wishes to give you.
Couln't agree more!
[quote author=childoforthodoxy link=topic=13328.msg155858#msg155858 date=1337714992]
Perhaps I should clarify...
The goal here should be attaining noetic prayer. This entails several steps that have surely been outlined by the Fathers. The goal is not to fit God into what we have observed around us. Noetic prayer does not come in a moment, but one can begin now to attempt to pursue it, using various means outlined by their spiritual guide.
True knowledge will come from true repentance. When we cease to examine the world with what we feel is rational, and begin to examine our hearts in the light of Christ, all other things become illuminated in this Light, and we see things for what they are.
I don't think I understand. Are you saying to abandon any rational inquiry into the matter in favor of an entirely spiritual path? I don't think I can bring myself to do that. Surely there needs to be some objective (rational) basis for the faith? If this isn't what you're saying, please disregard this. I'm not quite sure I agree with this....if He exists, shouldn't there be a way to demonstrate it? (either through argument or otherwise?). I'm not at a point where I can just surrender my reasoning and let faith take over.
My prayer now basically consists of variations of "If you're real, help me." But it feels like I'm talking to myself, and I'm really only doing it because I'm told to, not because I expect it to help. That expectation vanished a while ago, unfortunately.
Let me go back a bit and welcome you to the forums. I must say, I'm always quite hesitant to type anything on the forums in terms of giving advice because each person requires their own answer that is specific to them, and seeing how informal the forum is, it is difficult to present a proper answer to the person asking the question. Also, the fear is often that one piece of advice given to one person might be taken by another and applied without proper guidance, and this may lead them down to a condition that is worse than the one with which they started.
I will attempt, therefore, to remain a bit vague in my answer, and will ask that you redirect your efforts and questions to a spiritual guide that knows you well.
It is quite often the case that we are unable to sacrifice that which we hold dear to us, as we feel that they are the most firm foundation points of ourselves as human beings. God is not simply True Rational Wisdom and Truth, He is above all of this. God is not subject to examination as other created things are. You cannot take a created substance and use it to critique and analyze the uncreated. Therefore, enlightenment cannot come in the scientific sense proper of obtaining evidence, analyzing and making deductions based on these observations. God, therefore, makes known to us what He desires mankind to know based on revelations. This revelation is not found in scientific books, nor will you find it in nature, as nature is created. Western theologians have attempted to do this, Augustine and Thomas Aquinas included, and fall short in so doing.
You will not find Christ with your physical eyes; you must develop and make use of your spiritual eyes, not gained by knowledge from books, but True Knowledge given by the Truth. The method by which this is done begins with repentance, and continued with the guidance of a spiritual guide. This is the proven way. This is Orthodoxy.
There is far more detail to it than this, but I will leave the rest to the proper person who will guide you.
childoforthodoxy
RO, can you point me to things (lines of reasoning or whatever it was) that led you back to Christianity?
Time, prayer, research
I think you're going about this the wrong way. All the books you're reading and all the books recommended address issues at different levels of faith. Each book addresses a specific audience with the assumption of a basic acceptance of facts. I think if you ask specific questions we can talk about it and try to help you as well as giving the opportunity for all of us to learn.
I also think you might be overwhelming yourself with multiple questions and doubts all at once. It makes no sense to have multiple questions about God, God's providence, God's relationship with man, God and science all at once if you are not sure the gospel accounts are accurate. Most of us and most books will use the gospel accounts as basic evidence. Let's start at the most fundamental level. If you are not convinced of the answer, it doesn't make sense to move on and tackle another problem.
The only question in mind is where do you want to start? Shall we discuss proving God's existence, or shall we discuss science vs. scripture? Your call.
K-man,
I think you're going about this the wrong way. All the books you're reading and all the books recommended address issues at different levels of faith. Each book addresses a specific audience with the assumption of a basic acceptance of facts. I think if you ask specific questions we can talk about it and try to help you as well as giving the opportunity for all of us to learn.
I also think you might be overwhelming yourself with multiple questions and doubts all at once. It makes no sense to have multiple questions about God, God's providence, God's relationship with man, God and science all at once if you are not sure the gospel accounts are accurate. Most of us and most books will use the gospel accounts as basic evidence. Let's start at the most fundamental level. If you are not convinced of the answer, it doesn't make sense to move on and tackle another problem.
The only question in mind is where do you want to start? Shall we discuss proving God's existence, or shall we discuss science vs. scripture? Your call.
Good morning, my name is Dr. Rem, and I'm here to fix you. Where do you want to start LOL!
My bad, been watching scrubs for too long...
I strongly urge you to read the Bible from cover to cover (you may have done so previously, but even so, read it again because you will ALWAYS find something new), with an open heart and mind. God will reveal Himself to you in the appointed time.
You seek truth and you are honest in your search, but you will not be satisfied unless you seek THE Truth.
In the words of St. Paul "For we walk by faith, not by sight." 2 Corinthians 5:7
And most of all, pray. "Then you will call upon Me and go and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart." Jeremiah 29:12-13
I will leave you with one verse which sums up this whole discussion:
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Hebrews 11:1
God Bless.
Please pray for me.
Your brother in Christ.
Let me explain it this way, you said
[quote author=caji link=topic=13328.msg155870#msg155870 date=1337718956]
You will never understand God or His Creation unless you read what He has given you, with an open mind.
What if the Trinity gave you a prophet (say Jeremiah) who wrote "Islam is truth". Would you agree with this statement? If you say no, then I will say "You didn't read the Bible with an open mind." If you say yes, then I will say "You are neither Christian or Muslim". Where does that leave you?
The fact is directing you to the Bible doesn't answer the question. It only puts you, the seeker, on a rational, scientific journey to prove or disprove this statement from the Bible. (Of course, this is the absolute wrong way to read the Bible) And if the seeker can't find the answer, depression and doubt overwhelms him. The next typical answer is "Pray and you'll find the answer". Yes that's true. But now I am asking the seeker to go on a "spiritual" journey that he can not conceptualize because he is looking for logical, rational answers. In addition, saying "pray and you'll find the answer" doesn't guarantee an answer. (A non-guaranteed answer is an illogical response to an immediate question) In other words, he still doesn't have an answer on whether or not "Islam is truth". It is beneficial for everyone to find rational, scientific evidence that Islam is not the truth first. This starts us all on a journey that everyone has conceptualized. We are all starting on the same page. It will most definitely lead to the Bible and prayer. But it can't be the other way around.
To prove this point, look at 1 Corinthians 15:46, "The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual." The same applies to faith. You are not born hoping for the resurrection of the dead. You are not born accepting things not seen. It first takes rational, logical thought - natural human development - to accept faith as St Paul defined in Hebrews 11:1.
Of course, I would not quote the Bible to the seeker. I would "always be ready to give an answer for the hope that is me". That answer usually requires me to start with science and logic. I should have a repertoire of logical answers in addition to Biblical verses and spiritual evidence.
I hope I didn't offend anyone. It's just that in this age, we need to learn from apologetics like St Athanasius, St Cyril I, and others who proved the Trinitarian faith from material inside and outside of the gospels.
K-man,
Let me go back a bit and welcome you to the forums. I must say, I'm always quite hesitant to type anything on the forums in terms of giving advice because each person requires their own answer that is specific to them, and seeing how informal the forum is, it is difficult to present a proper answer to the person asking the question. Also, the fear is often that one piece of advice given to one person might be taken by another and applied without proper guidance, and this may lead them down to a condition that is worse than the one with which they started.
Thanks for the welcome! And that's totally understandable.
Hmm.......