I agree Stavros. But I’m sure that if there is mass persecution in Egypt the rest of the world will interfere... I hope.
The Prince of the World does not contradict himself. He does not inistigate the persecution the Copts to defend them on the other end.
Nations use human rights when it is in their interest to do so, and ignore atrocities committed and even justify it when it is in their interest to do. These are the same nations which pretend to champion "human rights".
In any case, I agree that prayers are always the solution.
I think guys may have misunderstood me I mean like God will do what's best he'll do what he thinks is right
Sorry if my words may have confused u or have come out differently then I thought [quote author=markmarcos link=topic=13419.msg156932#msg156932 date=1340137462] [quote author=Stavro link=topic=13419.msg156926#msg156926 date=1340125803] [quote author=marinacopt link=topic=13419.msg156921#msg156921 date=1340101392] I think we all have to think out the box I mean I dont want persecution but Maybe God just wants The brotherhood to take over so that He gets more martyrs to His name. Whatever He does is His will
'thy will be done' Persecution isn't all bad I mean people receive golden crowns upon their heads and we shouldn't cry (i know its only a human thing to cry) because we are not against the great will of Christ we aren't against heaven (Tasoni Angel, Fr Bishoy Kamel's wife said that)
God's will be done
The principle is sound, and there is no objection to it, but I find it hard for me to tell my bretheren : Go, be martyred, and get crowns, while I have it easy here in Canada.
I agree Stavros. But I’m sure that if there is mass persecution in Egypt the rest of the world will interfere... I hope.
I agree Stavros. But I’m sure that if there is mass persecution in Egypt the rest of the world will interfere... I hope.
The Prince of the World does not contradict himself. He does not inistigate the persecution the Copts to defend them on the other end. This is exactly what God does without contradicting Himself. He created a famine, making many people suffer, so Jacob can find Joseph and Egypt can support a global famine relief program through Joseph. Jesus allowed Lazarus to die (the ultimate form of suffering) so that Lazarus' resurrection would instigate the Pharisees plot to kill Jesus so Jesus could defend, intercede and reconcile all humanity.
Whatever the rest of the world does is insignificant and negligible. We should expect that from the world. Just as we expect God will turn this evil into good whether in this life time or the next.
If Morsi wins, it will be living hell for christians. If Shafiq wins, it will be living hell for Egypt.
Why I say that? Well, because Morsi and his followers are so determined to win, that if they don't, it would not be accepted. Thus, will cause much protests, and killings, and a whole lot of other violence...
Just a thought.
But hey, either way, we know that God's will is going to out rule everything. And nothing from Him is bad. 8)
I think any rioting because of election results would just be indicative of a dumb population. When the full election was held (before the run-off), both Morsi and Shafiq ended up with under 30% of the votes. Meaning for each candidate, well over 70% of the population was not in support. As a result, turnout for the run-off election was very low. So a vast majority of the population is already aware that someone they don't want is getting elected.
[quote author=George_Mina link=topic=13419.msg156995#msg156995 date=1340382820] I think any rioting because of election results would just be indicative of a dumb population.
[quote author=JG link=topic=13419.msg157004#msg157004 date=1340410243] [quote author=George_Mina link=topic=13419.msg156995#msg156995 date=1340382820] I think any rioting because of election results would just be indicative of a dumb population.
We don't want that anyone is upset about what happened today. We all know the verse: And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose - What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? (Rom 8:28 & 31-32)
There were never any elections. Hence nothing to be upset at. Morsi had a deal with the army.
By bringing the people into Tahrir and verbally threatening the system he was showing the reality and necessity for the action to be taken by the army.
Welcome to Islam.
For the weak start picking your Islamic name to help with conversion. For the courageous get ready for the increased strife, the increased deaths and martyrdom, the increased injustice, the increased rape, the increased burning of the churches, and the list goes on and on and on.
As for the Christians, who foolishly, stupidly, idiotically, and dementedly helped in this Islamic Revolution, thinking that there can ever be equality, may God have mercy on you for what you have done to your fellow Christians.
I really love how our reposed father Pope Shenouda III already knew this would happen hence him telling us not to get involved in the protests but to rather pray that God does His will.
[quote author=geomike link=topic=13419.msg157066#msg157066 date=1340607631] I really love how our reposed father Pope Shenouda III already knew this would happen hence him telling us not to get involved in the protests but to rather pray that God does His will.
Huh, did he knew that morsi would be president? When did he say that?
he knew it was the wrong thing to get too involved in the protests. he understood all the politics behind the scenes, and so it was not difficult to realise what was coming next, especially looking at the nearby countries and what was happening there. may we pray for the rulers of egypt, and may pope shenouda who we love and cherish, remember us before the throne of God.
It is ironic that Morcy, the President of Egypt now, was a prisoner prior to the revolution and was freed by the brotherhood's militias who attacked the prisons of Egypt during the chaos of the revolution. They released Hezbullah's, Hamas' and their own prisoners. He was imprisoned following accusations of high treason. He was never acquitted nor pardoned. We have a runaway, fugitive president.
There is something special about the prisons of Egypt. You get in, you come out the ruler of Egypt. Joseph in the Bible, Sadat in modern times, Morcy now......
In any case, whether the revolution started secular and turned islamic, or was islamic from the beginning, is hard to figure out. What matters is that the brotherhood is fully supported by the US and EU. Nobody would have guessed that the US will go so far to put the brotherhood in power, and exert so much pressure to eliminate any other political power from the first day of revolution. It was not only the current US administration and their insistence that Morcy be declared winner. McCain has met on multiple occasions with the brotherhood in Egypt. It seems that it is in the best interest of the US to have islamic regimes all over the Middle East.
Electing Shafiq was the last attempt to save Egypt as a secular nation. The contrast between the supporters of Shafiq and the supporters of Morcy, and between the two candidates themselves, in every aspect of character and political conviction, is huge.
May the Lord execute his judgment on the Great Whore of Babylon soon, and have mercy on Egypt.
[quote author=Stavro link=topic=13419.msg157078#msg157078 date=1340641612] May the Lord execute his judgment on the Great Whore of Babylon soon, and have mercy on Egypt.
How do you tell the two apart? Who exactly is the Great Whore of Babylon? The US and EU? Egypt? The Muslim Brotherhood? All of the above? Regardless, Psalm 149 says the Saints (us) who "have the high praises of God in their mouths...will execute the written judgment and execute vengeance on the nations and punishment on the people." These events only prove the Bible is true and our God will execute vengeance through us. We put our trust in God, not in princes or presidential nominees. (Psalm 118:8,9), not in marches or rioting or in a legal system or politics.
We put our trust in God, not in princes or presidential nominees. (Psalm 118:8,9), not in marches or rioting or in a legal system or politics.
I agree with you. I am against Coptic demonstrations / riots of all kinds, and do not like to see the Church involved in politics in any way.
However, exercising citizenship privilages such as voting and supporting one candidate over another is not the equivalent of trusting the princes of the world, in my opinion. It is for me a way of passing this temporary life in peace and doing what I think is best for my country Egypt and my ethnic and religious community, the Copts.
For multiple reasons, I think that General Shafiq would have been a better choice for Egypt, and consequently for the Copts. I did not choose him because he will protect the Church, only Christ is doing so, but I choose him because he is better for the economy, education, national security and to perserve the unique character of Egypt.
The fact that the other candidate is a traitor, fanatic and incompetent, makes him not a very attractive choice for me.
These events only prove the Bible is true and our God will execute vengeance through us.
The Bible is true, and the Bible teaches us that "Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows." It applies for individuals and nations alike. If a nation supports a terrorist group, it will taste the fruits of such action soon in form of terrorist attacks, maybe on its own soil. I am not wishing for this to happen, but I will not be surprised if it does.
In all cases, one can only pray that His mercy endures forever.
[quote author=Stavro link=topic=13419.msg157078#msg157078 date=1340641612] It is ironic that Morcy, the President of Egypt now, was a prisoner prior to the revolution and was freed by the brotherhood's militias who attacked the prisons of Egypt during the chaos of the revolution. They released Hezbullah's, Hamas' and their own prisoners. He was imprisoned following accusations of high treason. He was never acquitted nor pardoned. We have a runaway, fugitive president.
There is something special about the prisons of Egypt. You get in, you come out the ruler of Egypt. Joseph in the Bible, Sadat in modern times, Morcy now......
In any case, whether the revolution started secular and turned islamic, or was islamic from the beginning, is hard to figure out. What matters is that the brotherhood is fully supported by the US and EU. Nobody would have guessed that the US will go so far to put the brotherhood in power, and exert so much pressure to eliminate any other political power from the first day of revolution. It was not only the current US administration and their insistence that Morcy be declared winner. McCain has met on multiple occasions with the brotherhood in Egypt. It seems that it is in the best interest of the US to have islamic regimes all over the Middle East.
Electing Shafiq was the last attempt to save Egypt as a secular nation. The contrast between the supporters of Shafiq and the supporters of Morcy, and between the two candidates themselves, in every aspect of character and political conviction, is huge.
May the Lord execute his judgment on the Great Whore of Babylon soon, and have mercy on Egypt.
Dear Stavro, I get the sense you aren't fluent in reading Arabic, or are you? I guess if you are, you would understand much more of the gimmicks happening in Egypt, than a superficial outlook of blaming the revolution for what is happening now. Don't take me wrong, so many people (and indeed not only Christians) think and believe this way... well... it isn't... Oujai qen `P[C
Shafik wouldn't have been better for Christians. He would have been exactly acting in the same vein as mubarak, turning a blind eye to persecution, discrimination, lack of employment (and under-recognition), and the right to build churches. The only person in history (the whole of Egypt's history since St. Mark's preaching in Egypt) who did "some" good to Christians was Abd El Nasser, and that was only because Pope Kyrillos carried out God's miracles with him personally. He was a gentleman. I heard some miracles were done to mubarak's family but he was conceited and evil and no one could ever stop him FULL STOP. It is the way it has to go. Christians in Egypt have always lived as a minority (at least since islam conquered in Egypt), and minorities every where are used for political reasons, and how starkly obvious this could be in any nation except an arab one. Oujai qen `P[C
Oh, and yes... Christians do have the right to protest, demonstrate peacefully, and revolt. Yes, yes, yes... they are a sector of the population, and if they don't, no one is going to do it for them. God actually protested against authorities that were evil and seeking-own-interests. St. Paul did the same... Oujai qen `P[C
I get the sense you aren't fluent in reading Arabic, or are you?
I consider myself fluent in Arabic.
I guess if you are, you would understand much more of the gimmicks happening in Egypt, than a superficial outlook of blaming the revolution for what is happening now. Don't take me wrong, so many people (and indeed not only Christians) think and believe this way... well... it isn't...
The discussion is political in nature. My analysis could be wrong and / or incomplete, missing in some aspects, and I would greatly appreciate if you fill me in on what I missed.
The summary of my position is as follows:
The revolution was started by non-islamic groups to demand social equality, political freedom and human diginity, and it was later sabottaged by the Islamists with the help of the ruling military council and other forces.
God actually protested against authorities that were evil and seeking-own-interests.
I am not familiar with this divine protest you refer to. Protesting is an act of a person under a certain authority. I cannot think of a situation in which God is subject to a created authority.
If you are referring to the self emptying of the Lord Christ, indicate which time did He protest or riot against authorities.
St. Paul did the same...
Are you referring to his appeal to Caesar?
In any case, Bishop Macarius of Menia has a very good article regarding this issue, written around the time of the revolution. In summary, HG says that a peaceful expression of opinion, which does not violate the rights of others, or tends to any unchristian actions, and is not self-seeking but seeks the benefit of others, is permitted.
Shafik wouldn't have been better for Christians. He would have been exactly acting in the same vein as mubarak, turning a blind eye to persecution, discrimination, lack of employment (and under-recognition), and the right to build churches. The only person in history (the whole of Egypt's history since St. Mark's preaching in Egypt) who did "some" good to Christians was Abd El Nasser, and that was only because Pope Kyrillos carried out God's miracles with him personally. He was a gentleman. It is the way it has to go. Christians in Egypt have always lived as a minority (at least since islam conquered in Egypt), and minorities every where are used for political reasons, and how starkly obvious this could be in any nation except an arab one.
Maybe. We have no way of knowing now how good or bad Shafiq would have been. We will enjoy the leadership of Morcy for the coming four years. One day is over ... ya musahel.
The authorities that were evil were the pharasees. They believed in a messiah and he will come and save them but they didn't believe Jesus was the one. We know Jesus knew God's will better than they did and was able to argue against them. [quote author=Stavro link=topic=13419.msg157088#msg157088 date=1340655553]
God actually protested against authorities that were evil and seeking-own-interests.
I am not familiar with this divine protest you refer to. Protesting is an act of a person under a certain authority. I cannot think of a situation in which God is subject to a created authority.
If you are referring to the self emptying of the Lord Christ, indicate which time did He protest or riot against authorities.
The the pharasees represent people and are supposed to look after them. Government same.
The authorities that were evil were the pharasees.
The Lord did not protest against them, He taught them. The matter at hand was spiritual, not political. The Lord Christ was not opposing the Jews because of self-interest, but rather out of love and sacrifice.
Are these principles applied in the majority of Coptic demonstrations?
Why did he call them hippocrates? It was because they treated the ones who were suffering differently than the way the pharisees treated themselves. Yes he did teach the pharisees but they didn't listen. He was teaching them lessons of conscience and of the heart and of who he is. He superceded the laws God gave to moses.
If a government has a conscience then it would have no shame for any of it's people. Islam has it's law nad it is not Christ who is going to supercede it until the final day. Until then it is right to be as humble as possible as to not sturr any angry. Far better they shame themselves with violence than to respond in the same manner.
Comments
Jesus went to Egypt that his life was saved and I am sure he will not forget the ones in Egypt who follow him.
Nations use human rights when it is in their interest to do so, and ignore atrocities committed and even justify it when it is in their interest to do. These are the same nations which pretend to champion "human rights".
In any case, I agree that prayers are always the solution.
Sorry if my words may have confused u or have come out differently then I thought
[quote author=markmarcos link=topic=13419.msg156932#msg156932 date=1340137462]
[quote author=Stavro link=topic=13419.msg156926#msg156926 date=1340125803]
[quote author=marinacopt link=topic=13419.msg156921#msg156921 date=1340101392]
I think we all have to think out the box
I mean I dont want persecution but
Maybe God just wants The brotherhood to take over so that He gets more martyrs to His name. Whatever He does is His will
'thy will be done'
Persecution isn't all bad I mean people receive golden crowns upon their heads and we shouldn't cry (i know its only a human thing to cry) because we are not against the great will of Christ we aren't against heaven (Tasoni Angel, Fr Bishoy Kamel's wife said that)
God's will be done
The principle is sound, and there is no objection to it, but I find it hard for me to tell my bretheren : Go, be martyred, and get crowns, while I have it easy here in Canada.
I agree Stavros. But I’m sure that if there is mass persecution in Egypt the rest of the world will interfere... I hope.
This is exactly what God does without contradicting Himself. He created a famine, making many people suffer, so Jacob can find Joseph and Egypt can support a global famine relief program through Joseph. Jesus allowed Lazarus to die (the ultimate form of suffering) so that Lazarus' resurrection would instigate the Pharisees plot to kill Jesus so Jesus could defend, intercede and reconcile all humanity.
Whatever the rest of the world does is insignificant and negligible. We should expect that from the world. Just as we expect God will turn this evil into good whether in this life time or the next.
Go shafiq, go! :D
If Morsi wins, it will be living hell for christians.
If Shafiq wins, it will be living hell for Egypt.
Why I say that? Well, because Morsi and his followers are so determined to win, that if they don't, it would not be accepted. Thus, will cause much protests, and killings, and a whole lot of other violence...
Just a thought.
But hey, either way, we know that God's will is going to out rule everything. And nothing from Him is bad. 8)
I think any rioting because of election results would just be indicative of a dumb population.
This.
[quote author=George_Mina link=topic=13419.msg156995#msg156995 date=1340382820]
I think any rioting because of election results would just be indicative of a dumb population.
This.
Is Awsome!
i just got home from church, people were watching in on a projector. i left before they announced it though.
be assured that everyone is praying more than ever today and that God's will will be done. we must have courage and God will give us His peace.
http://news.sky.com/home/world-news/article/16252240
i just got home from church, people were watching in on a projector. i left before they announced it though.
be assured that everyone is praying more than ever today and that God's will will be done. we must have courage and God will give us His peace.
Indeed mabsoota, we really must pray!!!
And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose
- What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?
(Rom 8:28 & 31-32)
God sees things we can't see.
rabina mawgood, God is here,
as our dear baba shenouda said.
Morsi had a deal with the army.
By bringing the people into Tahrir and verbally threatening the system he was showing the reality and necessity for the action to be taken by the army.
Welcome to Islam.
For the weak start picking your Islamic name to help with conversion. For the courageous get ready for the increased strife, the increased deaths and martyrdom, the increased injustice, the increased rape, the increased burning of the churches, and the list goes on and on and on.
As for the Christians, who foolishly, stupidly, idiotically, and dementedly helped in this Islamic Revolution, thinking that there can ever be equality, may God have mercy on you for what you have done to your fellow Christians.
I really love how our reposed father Pope Shenouda III already knew this would happen hence him telling us not to get involved in the protests but to rather pray that God does His will.
Huh, did he knew that morsi would be president? When did he say that?
may we pray for the rulers of egypt, and may pope shenouda who we love and cherish, remember us before the throne of God.
rabena mowgood
There is something special about the prisons of Egypt. You get in, you come out the ruler of Egypt. Joseph in the Bible, Sadat in modern times, Morcy now......
In any case, whether the revolution started secular and turned islamic, or was islamic from the beginning, is hard to figure out. What matters is that the brotherhood is fully supported by the US and EU. Nobody would have guessed that the US will go so far to put the brotherhood in power, and exert so much pressure to eliminate any other political power from the first day of revolution. It was not only the current US administration and their insistence that Morcy be declared winner. McCain has met on multiple occasions with the brotherhood in Egypt. It seems that it is in the best interest of the US to have islamic regimes all over the Middle East.
Electing Shafiq was the last attempt to save Egypt as a secular nation. The contrast between the supporters of Shafiq and the supporters of Morcy, and between the two candidates themselves, in every aspect of character and political conviction, is huge.
May the Lord execute his judgment on the Great Whore of Babylon soon, and have mercy on Egypt.
May the Lord execute his judgment on the Great Whore of Babylon soon, and have mercy on Egypt.
How do you tell the two apart? Who exactly is the Great Whore of Babylon? The US and EU? Egypt? The Muslim Brotherhood? All of the above? Regardless, Psalm 149 says the Saints (us) who "have the high praises of God in their mouths...will execute the written judgment and execute vengeance on the nations and punishment on the people." These events only prove the Bible is true and our God will execute vengeance through us. We put our trust in God, not in princes or presidential nominees. (Psalm 118:8,9), not in marches or rioting or in a legal system or politics.
However, exercising citizenship privilages such as voting and supporting one candidate over another is not the equivalent of trusting the princes of the world, in my opinion. It is for me a way of passing this temporary life in peace and doing what I think is best for my country Egypt and my ethnic and religious community, the Copts.
For multiple reasons, I think that General Shafiq would have been a better choice for Egypt, and consequently for the Copts. I did not choose him because he will protect the Church, only Christ is doing so, but I choose him because he is better for the economy, education, national security and to perserve the unique character of Egypt.
The fact that the other candidate is a traitor, fanatic and incompetent, makes him not a very attractive choice for me. The Bible is true, and the Bible teaches us that "Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows." It applies for individuals and nations alike. If a nation supports a terrorist group, it will taste the fruits of such action soon in form of terrorist attacks, maybe on its own soil. I am not wishing for this to happen, but I will not be surprised if it does.
In all cases, one can only pray that His mercy endures forever.
It is ironic that Morcy, the President of Egypt now, was a prisoner prior to the revolution and was freed by the brotherhood's militias who attacked the prisons of Egypt during the chaos of the revolution. They released Hezbullah's, Hamas' and their own prisoners. He was imprisoned following accusations of high treason. He was never acquitted nor pardoned. We have a runaway, fugitive president.
There is something special about the prisons of Egypt. You get in, you come out the ruler of Egypt. Joseph in the Bible, Sadat in modern times, Morcy now......
In any case, whether the revolution started secular and turned islamic, or was islamic from the beginning, is hard to figure out. What matters is that the brotherhood is fully supported by the US and EU. Nobody would have guessed that the US will go so far to put the brotherhood in power, and exert so much pressure to eliminate any other political power from the first day of revolution. It was not only the current US administration and their insistence that Morcy be declared winner. McCain has met on multiple occasions with the brotherhood in Egypt. It seems that it is in the best interest of the US to have islamic regimes all over the Middle East.
Electing Shafiq was the last attempt to save Egypt as a secular nation. The contrast between the supporters of Shafiq and the supporters of Morcy, and between the two candidates themselves, in every aspect of character and political conviction, is huge.
May the Lord execute his judgment on the Great Whore of Babylon soon, and have mercy on Egypt.
Dear Stavro,
I get the sense you aren't fluent in reading Arabic, or are you? I guess if you are, you would understand much more of the gimmicks happening in Egypt, than a superficial outlook of blaming the revolution for what is happening now. Don't take me wrong, so many people (and indeed not only Christians) think and believe this way... well... it isn't...
Oujai qen `P[C
Oujai qen `P[C
Oujai qen `P[C
The summary of my position is as follows:
The revolution was started by non-islamic groups to demand social equality, political freedom and human diginity, and it was later sabottaged by the Islamists with the help of the ruling military council and other forces.
If you are referring to the self emptying of the Lord Christ, indicate which time did He protest or riot against authorities. Are you referring to his appeal to Caesar?
In any case, Bishop Macarius of Menia has a very good article regarding this issue, written around the time of the revolution. In summary, HG says that a peaceful expression of opinion, which does not violate the rights of others, or tends to any unchristian actions, and is not self-seeking but seeks the benefit of others, is permitted. Maybe. We have no way of knowing now how good or bad Shafiq would have been. We will enjoy the leadership of Morcy for the coming four years. One day is over ... ya musahel.
I agree with you on Nasser.
The authorities that were evil were the pharasees. They believed in a messiah and he will come and save them but they didn't believe Jesus was the one. We know Jesus knew God's will better than they did and was able to argue against them. [quote author=Stavro link=topic=13419.msg157088#msg157088 date=1340655553] I am not familiar with this divine protest you refer to. Protesting is an act of a person under a certain authority. I cannot think of a situation in which God is subject to a created authority.
If you are referring to the self emptying of the Lord Christ, indicate which time did He protest or riot against authorities.
The the pharasees represent people and are supposed to look after them. Government same.
Are these principles applied in the majority of Coptic demonstrations?
Why did he call them hippocrates? It was because they treated the ones who were suffering differently than the way the pharisees treated themselves. Yes he did teach the pharisees but they didn't listen. He was teaching them lessons of conscience and of the heart and of who he is. He superceded the laws God gave to moses.
If a government has a conscience then it would have no shame for any of it's people. Islam has it's law nad it is not Christ who is going to supercede it until the final day. Until then it is right to be as humble as possible as to not sturr any angry. Far better they shame themselves with violence than to respond in the same manner.