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Can Homosexuality be Cured?
Hi,
I'm curious to know what the Orthodox position is on Homosexuality?
No doubt it sees homosexuality as a sin. But does it offer a cure to those who see themselves as "gay" from birth?
There are cases of induced homosexuality, where the person was heterosexual and then became homosexual, or engaged in homosexuality simply due to a sinful environment. No doubt this type of perversion can be cured.
But what is the cure for those who see themselves as gay - from birth? If the Church starts to say "they can be cured" - then is it putting them in a dangerous psychological position where the person is now faced with re-building their entire psycho-neurlogical behavior? Is this something that should be done?
I have met someone who sees himself as "gay". He does not consider being gay as a disorder that needs to be treated, but wants to be Orthodox. He understands that he can NEVER have any homosexual relations, but doesn't see that the fact that he finds men attractive as a disorder.
What should be said to such people? What is the response of the Church concerning such conditions?
I'm curious to know what the Orthodox position is on Homosexuality?
No doubt it sees homosexuality as a sin. But does it offer a cure to those who see themselves as "gay" from birth?
There are cases of induced homosexuality, where the person was heterosexual and then became homosexual, or engaged in homosexuality simply due to a sinful environment. No doubt this type of perversion can be cured.
But what is the cure for those who see themselves as gay - from birth? If the Church starts to say "they can be cured" - then is it putting them in a dangerous psychological position where the person is now faced with re-building their entire psycho-neurlogical behavior? Is this something that should be done?
I have met someone who sees himself as "gay". He does not consider being gay as a disorder that needs to be treated, but wants to be Orthodox. He understands that he can NEVER have any homosexual relations, but doesn't see that the fact that he finds men attractive as a disorder.
What should be said to such people? What is the response of the Church concerning such conditions?
Comments
Pope shenouda wrote a book about it.
No. The pope's books was on the rights of homosexuals in the Church - and for the Clergy.
There's no talk on how we should answer cases where someone is born gay.
I admit, deep down in my heart, the question that seems to arise EVERYTIME, when I look at gays who say they were born gay is :" Is this really a choice?" - "have these people decided to remain gay, are they looking for justification of their condition, or are they sincerely looking coming with a bonified neurological problem/condition that just simply makes them find the opposite sex attractive".
See, I believe (or am beginning to believe) that its a neurological problem. Why? Because Gay Copts don't necessarily have homosexual relations. But neurologicaly, they are attracted to the same sex.
What do I mean?
I am a guy (normal, straight male). I find women attractive. Not just sexually. But the attractiveness I find is in their voice, their hair, the way they walk, the way they talk. I even find hearing the footsteps of a woman walking attractive.
Now, as a gay, they have the SAME problem as me (LOL!) but they have this with someone of the same sex.
I have NO desire to manifest this attraction with females I meet in ANY sexual way. THat is even repulsive for me.
The same with gays (or with those who are Coptic and Gay).
What's more is that we all have the desire to express love. To express it, and receive love. We want to bond and share ourselves with someone. For me, this would result in marriage with a woman. I didn't have to think about it. I knew that a woman, if she's above 5'10'', and has a nice figure, would be someone I'd like to build a long term relationship with.
Gays are stuck. They cannot do this (in the Church). What is the answer for them?
I do not suffer from this gayness issue. I'm too macho and too "I love women too much" person to even begin to understand anything of what goes in a gay man's mind. But what is the answer for them?
How would you answer any of the people falling into the above category? Apply the same thing to homosexuals.
I don't agree with psychology as well as it says you can't change people. When christians evangelise and bring someone to Christ, we close the seperation that was formally between them and God that was held by their sin. If they don't feel they are sinning then the seperation is still there and they can't even use their conscience to close the gap.
Sin is slavery, so there is a different veiw of love. Christ's love frees us from the slavery while homosexuals love is in fact slavery as it is a sin.
http://www.cccnet.ca/menu/Books/HH_Homosexulality_OrdinationOfWomen.pdf
I'm curious to know what the Orthodox position is on Homosexuality?
Coptic Orthodox Church Formally Condemns Homosexuality, Ordination of Homosexuals and Same-Sex Marriages:
http://suscopts.org/resources/literature/266/coptic-orthodox-church-formally-condemns-homosexua/
Holy Synod Response:
http://suscopts.org/resources/literature/239/holy-synod-response/
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=13462.msg157256#msg157256 date=1341176316]
No doubt it sees homosexuality as a sin. But does it offer a cure to those who see themselves as "gay" from birth?
There are cases of induced homosexuality, where the person was heterosexual and then became homosexual, or engaged in homosexuality simply due to a sinful environment. No doubt this type of perversion can be cured.
But what is the cure for those who see themselves as gay - from birth? If the Church starts to say "they can be cured" - then is it putting them in a dangerous psychological position where the person is now faced with re-building their entire psycho-neurlogical behavior? Is this something that should be done?
I have met someone who sees himself as "gay". He does not consider being gay as a disorder that needs to be treated, but wants to be Orthodox. He understands that he can NEVER have any homosexual relations, but doesn't see that the fact that he finds men attractive as a disorder.
What should be said to such people? What is the response of the Church concerning such conditions?
Homosexuality:
http://suscopts.org/resources/literature/238/homosexuality/
Contemporary Ambivalent Attitudes...Homosexuality:
http://suscopts.org/resources/literature/269/contemporary-ambivalent-attitudeshomosexuality/
"Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, will inherit the kingdom of God." - 1 Cor. 6:9
Being disordered in many ways is not sin, we are all broken people in different ways.
But giving in to temptation is sin, and accepting disorder as being natural is sin.
The whole world is under the sway of sin ThyWillbdone. If you make it psychological then you take away the salvationand redeption of Jesus Christ. If I was to make a psycological comment on homosexuals then it would be that they make there femine side grandiose with traits of narsisism, in seeking their own image. If this was cured it would not bring them to Christ but they would still be living for this world. no we are to fight against the sin. Frued and Jung used other Gods and deities and modeled our behavior on they them. We don't follow those modals.
Being disordered in many ways is not sin, we are all broken people in different ways.
But giving in to temptation is sin, and accepting disorder as being natural is sin.
Scientists themselves tried to prove that people are born homosexuals, therefore making it a disorder, but failed. There is no homosexual hormone in the body either. Homosexualitiy is not qualified as a disroder, even though attempted to.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=13462.msg157293#msg157293 date=1341264538]
Being disordered in many ways is not sin, we are all broken people in different ways.
I agree with you when you said being disordered is not a sin, but being homosexual is not qualified accordingly. And if it were to be, why would God create someone with a sinful disorder?
Forgive me if I understood you, if so please explain :)
Pray for me
To be disordered is to act out of character. It is not human to be driven by passion. It is a disordered state. It lacks order. It is not as a human should be. But often this is caused by the influence of others, or by circumstamce. We cannot always help where we start from. We are all broken in many ways.
But we can all decide to set off back to out Father's house.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=13462.msg157293#msg157293 date=1341264538]
Forgive me if I understood you, if so please explain :)
Pray for me
**Misunderstood
Thank you for explaing Father Peter :)
Alot of people say, "It isnt their fault that they are homosexuals..." You said it is caused by the influence of others, so would it be the influence's fault, or the homosexual him/herself?
Is it my fault I can get anxious and shy around people? Or my parents? Or is it my innate psychology? That surely matters less than how I deal with it as a Christian. We are all very complex. How we are what we are does not matter as much as where we want to end up.
If you mean that someone who faces temptations of a homosexual nature will never enter the Kingdom then I disagree. The great saints faced temptation to their last day.
If you mean someone who falls into homosexual sin and repents then I disagree, because we all fall, and are all shown great mercy and tenderness by God when we repent.
If you mean that someone who practices homosexual acts without repentance, then I agree, but this is the same for all of us who fall into sin without repentance. Are you entirely pure? Do you never do anything which is shameful or deceitful? I know that I am always in need of the mercy and help of God, and find it best not to make sweeping judgements about people because I do not know what struggles any particular person faces.
Who is better? The pharisee or the publican? There are many who face homosexual temptations, completely unknown to me, who live much more godly and pure lives than I do. It is not temptation which is liable to judgement but consenting to that temptation. There are many who never face any homosexual temptation but are none the less consumed with other desires, and even give way to them.
May we all be given grace to overcome all those various temptations which we face.
Great to see you here developing this discussion.
What does the Church offer in terms of a "cure" ? We offer an open door for repentance - that's great - but what about a cure?
What are your feelings? Do you have any reservations that those who say they are gay have no choice in being gay? (like I , as a heterosexual male, have NO choice in finding women attractive?). What is your answer to such statements or conditions??
Finally, is a "cure" really the right way to go about this? Like, I need to be cured of being heterosexual? Do we believe that this needs to be cured, or does it need to be sanctified? What do I mean:
A person who is homosexual or has homosexual tendencies may not necessarily wish to engage in homosexual sex. Does the Church accept this state, or does it want to go further and just nullify his (or her) homosexual desires completely? Do you see the difference?
For example, I am a man. I love women. I find women attractive. The Church doesn't want to cure me of this condition of loving women. However, if i start to wish in my heart to have sex with every woman i see, whether in lust or act, then indeed, the Church will not accept this.
Do we accept that people can be born with a homosexual disposition from birth? If so, what should the Church do for them?
What is the role of an FOC in this case? Should the Coptic member feel the need to tell his FOC of his tendencies? or should he only repent for whenever he falls in lust?
I find this question and situation SO confusing.
because, I am a man. I don't tend to lust after women. However, I know the boundary between lust and love IS SOOOOO THIN with a woman. Its a situation that tends to lead 99% of couples to get married sooner. No one wants to sin, but we end up advancing our marriage dates simply to avoid the temptations of sexual relations outside marriage.
Of course gays will want to build a relationship with someone... they are going to have the SAME temptations as heterosexuals. This is just unavoidable. I know ONE couple that didn't kiss before marriage in my entire life: ONE!!
I am sorry for waffling, but I'm curious about this. Could you kindly address each question?? I need to get closure on this issue.
Cheers
One of the fathers was walking along and he saw two sisters passing on the road, and he pulled his hood down over his face. The elder sister shouted at him. 'If you were a true monk you would not have noticed we were women'.
There is no cure for temptations since they come from outside us, but there is the way to calm them and to reduce their potency. This is the same for all. I do not know what you mean when you say that because you are a man you do not lust after women. I find that almost impossible to believe of any man.
For every other man I know, to notice a woman is to already been on the edge of temptation and the possibility of sin. The Christian response in one who is perfect is to see only and ever one made in the image of God and never a woman as an object of any sort of attraction. The one who is perfect knows that outward appearance reveals nothing at all of the inner beauty that is known by God and those who are not only looking at the outward facade of things.
The cure of all attractions, and they are all the same, is humility and obedience through fasting, unceasing prayer and the restriction of all visual stimulus which feeds the lustful memory. For men and women, whether attracted to males or females, or to inanimate things as if they were of any worth, we must seek to become humble and obedient. To look on a woman and find her attractive is already to be deceived. To look on a man and find him attractive is to be deceived. Anything more is sin. To look twice is sin. I make no distinction between homosexual and heterosexual attractedness.
We must all ask ourselves how we are to be cured of this disordered faculty of desire which we find within us. We may not choose where we begin, but the goal is the same, it is to be so united to the will of God that we are freed from the power of all temptation, even thogh the temptation will never cease and may be of various forms. It is not homosexual temptation which requires being cured, as if it were something unique, but the damaged will which is in each of us.
If one person has an attraction to property, wealth, possessions and power then he is as much in need of a cure as one who has an attraction to the outward appearance of women, or the outward appearance of men. All of these attractions substitute God for something other than God. The cure is not choosing something 'pious' to be attracted to, indeed a person can be filled with pride because they know many hymns or never miss a Church service. The answer to such disordered and deadly attractions is always and only found in seeking God alone as the source of all life and meaning.
If there were one in my community who was engaged in homosexual practice then they would be counselled the same as one who was engaged in inappropriate heterosexual practice. If there were one who struggled manfully and occasionally fell then I would encourage them the same as I would encourage a young man struggling with heterosexual pressures. If there were a one who struggled and no longer fell, then I would encourage him to press on with fasting and prayer to build a solid foundation of resistance against temptation.
The aim would be the same for those facing heterosexual and homosexual temptation. Through fasting, prayer, the sacraments and service, to dry up the mental and emotional food which the tempter uses to gain entry to us.
A person whose mind is filled with images will fall easily into temptation and sin. A person who has allowed themselves to be filled with anger or self pity will easily fall into temptation and sin. By drying up the source of temptation we are better able to resist, but while we water our hearts with the bitter water of attractive images then we will bring forth a sour fruit of sin.
We all have a choice about what we are attracted to. Finding women attractive is a choice. It is a choice because it is a natural motion which we feed and allow more or less activity in our hearts. Finding males attractive is a choice. It is an objectivisation of others. The one who is perfect (and I am not) views all men and women equally the same, as persons in the image of God and therefore as being subjects not objects.
Those who are born with a heterosexual disposition must learn to control this, and such control requires perseverance and an overwhelming desire for God alone. Those who find themselves with a homosexual disposition must do the same. All Christians must do the same. The one who is obsessed with his car, his house, his job, his wealth must equally learn to give all for the sake of Christ.
I am very hopeful and positive towards those who wish to seek first the Kingdom of God and are struggling with homosexual thoughts. There is healing. But there is much healing which those who struggle with heterosexual thoughts, or do not bother struggling, must also commit to.
If Christ is not our first and greatest desire then we are all faced with many long years of repentance and healing. I will not single out those struggling with homosexual temptations.
So Father Peter would a homosexual male be safe when he sees the icons of our church fathers or even Jesus behind the alter? Would he see them as Holy or would it just be love?
Forgive me Father Peter. The question was about temptation but was cynical as it doubted their motives. The cynisim came from pride thinking I know the answer. Forgive me.
The only answer I can think of for them would be to live like Father Lazerus in the Eygptian mountian, so they can reflect on the internal with the help of God, without any sort of temptation and only reliance on God.
It also comes to mind that how incredbly hard it is for us with the media and other forces putting forth social norms.
I don't think homosexuals must do anything, but if they had a strong desire to remove any temptation, and to be totally focased on God, then isolation to mediatate would certainly benefit them. Even saying the word homosexuals has a polerizing effect, when God gives us the individual chose to follow him.
I don't think God wants to change groups of people but out of all groups of people, you find one strong person who can totally put away alot of their temptations and change the former self. This strong person required a strong solution to the strong problem. I admire what God has done to people who have put away the former self and gone as close as they could to God.
Because Father Peter, when they say they are homosexual, they are saying they are part of a group, and as far as I know these group is at emnity with God. Wouldn't it be better for them to not say they are homosexual and enter the church and let God change them. I don't got to church and say I'm heterosexual. Would I feel any guilt in saying so?No, the things I feel guilty about are numourous sins. The guilt I feel is like a lesson for my conscience and when I confess it, the forgiveness I recieve takes away the pain of the guilt. But with some whose sin is part of their identity and will not learn a lesson of conscience because their identity is still with a group. How do they serve to masters? No it would be better to come to God not saying you are part of a group and let him work on the self.
I also think the church is Holy so should be approached humbly. If someone comes and tells people they are homosexual then it is pride and maybe have self pity as the person doesn't feel they conform.
It is God who can say 'I AM', so if we are to be humble then we should approach with our identity hidden with trust in God and let him do his work and then the person can say 'I was.' Like St Paul when he said I was delivering them to death, and then after bringing them to life with Christ. Also Father Lazerus who says I was a Marxist-athiest and university lecteur and now can glorify a victory in Christ by been on u-tube showing his determination to get as close to God as he can.
I think a homosexual should only tell the priest he is homosexual and then after the victory he can tell anyone I was a homosexual. This would be appropriate in glorifying God.
He reposed in the 1980s. Homosexuality could be seen by him to have been treated as a cross that he used to enter heaven by bending His will and disposition to God's will.
An Icon of Him can be found here:
http://www.cathyscott.com/rose.htm
and here
http://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.cathyscott.com/images/Iconfrserrose.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.cathyscott.com/rose.htm&h=576&w=449&sz=73&tbnid=NFT4Ycxrv1e-CM:&tbnh=94&tbnw=73&prev=/search?q=seraphim+rose&tbm=isch&tbo=u&zoom=1&q=seraphim+rose&usg=__ld7hK1KRf6RgMTfCHo5CtzweXJs=&docid=XFhuQYE5JZaXtM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=QML1T-DKKurK6wHPwNjfBg&ved=0CFUQ9QEwAQ&dur=343
Father Thomas Hopko has written a fairly good bood on the Orthodox Christian Faith and Same Sex Attaction: an Eastern Orthodox Reflection
http://www.amazon.ca/Christian-Faith-Same-Sex-Attraction/dp/1888212756
All agree with the Reverend Father Peter. Homosexual activity and espousing such a lifestyle as correct is a sin and needs repentance and struggle like any other sin. A perons who condemns this lifestyle, sees it as an abominiation, and struggles against such tendancies is acceptable to the Church and may take communion. A person who continuously induldges in this or any other sin knowingly and refuses to repent and encourages others to accept and encourage homosexual activities may not.