I know homosexuality has been questioned a few times here on the forum and they ended up becoming fights, but I ask that you guys please answer my question with peacefulness because I didn't ask it out of a spirit of debate but rather I am really confused.
All of my life I have believed that nobody is born homosexual and I believe that I remember Pope Shenouda III said that it wasn't true, but today in Church a servant teaching our class, who is a Pharmacist, said that yes some people are born like that because it is a chemical imbalance. Specifically, in males there is a considerably greater amount of estrogen than normal.
Now, it doesn't matter what the chemical is to me because I know there are a lot more educated people here so there might be other reasons. All I want to know is whether there are some people who are born homosexual. If there is a bible verse to back it up that would be great, but I would also like any proofs you have to contradict the view of people able to be born homosexual.
Comments
To answer the general question of "can someone be porn homosexual?" we can rephrase that and say "is it realy in their DNA to be homosexual?" and the general answer is NO!!! I was told, sorry i don't remember the source, a study was made on twins who are born with the same DNA. It was discovered that 50% of twins in which one of them identifies himself to be homosexual, the other is not. So there is 50% correlation is not definitive to say be people are born homosexual.
Simply, people use this as an excuse.
It is non-sense.
There is even a larger jump in medical theory when it comes to psychosomatic or behavioral diseases. Just as there is no drug to cure homosexuality, there is no evidence to suggest a causal relationship with hormonal imbalance and homosexuality. If there was such evidence, then the pharmaceutical industry would have already developed a drug to "treat" homosexuality.
The point of all this: ILSM is right again. There is more evidence to show that people and society tend to unjustifiably excuse bad behavior with claims of victimization (ie, they can't help themselves because of genetics or chemical imbalances). There is no science behind it.
Pray for me
No, that is ridiculous. Being homosexual is a sin, why would God create someone with sin and then condemn him/her? In the Gospel Christ says, "A kingdom divided against itself would fall." God creating a person homosexual would be Him contradicting Himself, therefore going against Himself, so He would 'fall' if that were to be the case.
Pray for me
That's a really good point. It would make no sense for God to create someone with homosexuality. But that also raises a question:
Why did God create mentally retarded people, and how would he judge them? Why would God create someone who has no chance to praise or worship Him?
[quote author=ThyWillBeDone link=topic=13501.msg157518#msg157518 date=1341940676]
No, that is ridiculous. Being homosexual is a sin, why would God create someone with sin and then condemn him/her? In the Gospel Christ says, "A kingdom divided against itself would fall." God creating a person homosexual would be Him contradicting Himself, therefore going against Himself, so He would 'fall' if that were to be the case.
Pray for me
That's a really good point. It would make no sense for God to create someone with homosexuality.
Acting on homosexuality is the only sin. Dwelling on homosexual thoughts, giving in to homosexual temptations. Temptation ≠ sin. He doesn't.
My problem is, I don't know how to explain it to the others in the class.
I believe Boy George was. He had strong feminine characterists that continued after he had being past the baby stage.
[quote author=peter_saad link=topic=13501.msg157519#msg157519 date=1341941724]
[quote author=ThyWillBeDone link=topic=13501.msg157518#msg157518 date=1341940676]
No, that is ridiculous. Being homosexual is a sin, why would God create someone with sin and then condemn him/her? In the Gospel Christ says, "A kingdom divided against itself would fall." God creating a person homosexual would be Him contradicting Himself, therefore going against Himself, so He would 'fall' if that were to be the case.
Pray for me
That's a really good point. It would make no sense for God to create someone with homosexuality.
Acting on homosexuality is the only sin. Dwelling on homosexual thoughts, giving in to homosexual temptations. Temptation ≠ sin.
Having homosexual thoughts would be a sin. Whether you are homosexual or not, having bad thoughts does count as sin, at least thats what I've been taught.
I found this article online and I think the way he put it was great.
http://mattfradd.com/2012/06/14/catholic-gay-and-feeling-fine/
I found this article online and I think the way he put it was great.
Copticandproud, please don't take this personally, but this article lacks Orthodox doctrine. We really can't love and 'tolerate' something that opposes God; sin. There is no Apostolic foundation in the writers central message. One cannot love God, and decide not follow His commandments. John 14:15 states "If you love Me, keep My commandments." Nor can we "do what is right in our own eyes" (Judges 21:25).
This article is not recommended for reference.
[quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=13501.msg157541#msg157541 date=1341981091]
http://mattfradd.com/2012/06/14/catholic-gay-and-feeling-fine/
I found this article online and I think the way he put it was great.
Copticandproud, please don't take this personally, but this article lacks Orthodox doctrine. We really can't love and 'tolerate' something that opposes God; sin. There is no Apostolic foundation in the writers central message. One cannot love God, and decide not follow His commandments. John 14:15 states "If you love Me, keep My commandments." Nor can we "do what is right in our own eyes" (Judges 21:25).
This article is not recommended for reference.
No, not at all. I do not see anything non-Orthodox in it. We should love sinners, but hate sins. The article was about tolerating the sinner, him being gay, and not his sin.
Do you keep his commandments? I know I do not. I might not be gay, but I still have struggles that I struggle with. Sexual temptations are struggles for both the homosexual and the heterosexual.
[quote author=+iloveJesus link=topic=13501.msg157685#msg157685 date=1342341504]
[quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=13501.msg157541#msg157541 date=1341981091]
http://mattfradd.com/2012/06/14/catholic-gay-and-feeling-fine/
I found this article online and I think the way he put it was great.
Copticandproud, please don't take this personally, but this article lacks Orthodox doctrine. We really can't love and 'tolerate' something that opposes God; sin. There is no Apostolic foundation in the writers central message. One cannot love God, and decide not follow His commandments. John 14:15 states "If you love Me, keep My commandments." Nor can we "do what is right in our own eyes" (Judges 21:25).
This article is not recommended for reference.
No, not at all. I do not see anything non-Orthodox in it. We should love sinners, but hate sins. The article was about tolerating the sinner, him being gay, and not his sin.
The Coptic Orthodox Church has already posed it's stance on homosexuality many years ago.
I agree. I never said we shouldn't love a sinner. It's good he wrote his personal experience, that's commended. However, the preservation of our Faith needs to be taken into account together with it.
[quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=13501.msg157708#msg157708 date=1342390351]
Do you keep his commandments? I know I do not. I might not be gay, but I still have struggles that I struggle with. Sexual temptations are struggles for both the homosexual and the heterosexual.
The words were, 'decide not follow'. The writers decision clearly stated in the second last paragraph, why can't he follow God and do as he pleases.
I'm pretty sure God doesn't want us to do whatever we want, as long as our 'heart' is with God. This is far from Orthodoxy... where is the Truth...
And no, "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."
Again, Copticandproud this isn't directed at you but as to preserve the teachings of the Church.
[quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=13501.msg157708#msg157708 date=1342390351]
[quote author=+iloveJesus link=topic=13501.msg157685#msg157685 date=1342341504]
[quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=13501.msg157541#msg157541 date=1341981091]
http://mattfradd.com/2012/06/14/catholic-gay-and-feeling-fine/
I found this article online and I think the way he put it was great.
Copticandproud, please don't take this personally, but this article lacks Orthodox doctrine. We really can't love and 'tolerate' something that opposes God; sin. There is no Apostolic foundation in the writers central message. One cannot love God, and decide not follow His commandments. John 14:15 states "If you love Me, keep My commandments." Nor can we "do what is right in our own eyes" (Judges 21:25).
This article is not recommended for reference.
No, not at all. I do not see anything non-Orthodox in it. We should love sinners, but hate sins. The article was about tolerating the sinner, him being gay, and not his sin.
The Coptic Orthodox Church has already posed it's stance on homosexuality many years ago.
I agree. I never said we shouldn't love a sinner. It's good he wrote his personal experience, that's commended because it probably would have taken courage, however, the preservation of our Faith needs to be taken into account together with it.
[quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=13501.msg157708#msg157708 date=1342390351]
Do you keep his commandments? I know I do not. I might not be gay, but I still have struggles that I struggle with. Sexual temptations are struggles for both the homosexual and the heterosexual.
The words were, 'decide not follow'. The writers decision clearly stated in the second last paragraph, why can't he follow God and do as he pleases.
I'm pretty sure God doesn't want us to do whatever we want, as long as our 'heart' is with God. This is far from Orthodoxy... where is the Truth...
And no, "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."
Again, Copticandproud this isn't directed at you but as to preserve the teachings of the Church.
No, that was not his words. I think you might have missunderstood. I quoted his third and second to last paragraph. I think it is obvious what he is implying.
Wow, thanks guys for all the answers, but they are just reaffirming me to my belief that you can't be born homosexual. Trust me guys, I believe it's ridiculous just as much as you do.
My problem is, I don't know how to explain it to the others in the class.
Explain it as demons. I think we have to come to terms with the fact that we have an Adversary who is hard at work to destroy us!
Casting out demons was (is) a big part of Christs ministry.
I think we are deluded into thinking it is something other than the Devil's work. That is why no one is healed or cured because they are not seeking the right medicine.
[quote author=geomike link=topic=13501.msg157527#msg157527 date=1341953855]
Wow, thanks guys for all the answers, but they are just reaffirming me to my belief that you can't be born homosexual. Trust me guys, I believe it's ridiculous just as much as you do.
My problem is, I don't know how to explain it to the others in the class.
Explain it as demons. I think we have to come to terms with the fact that we have an Adversary who is hard at work to destroy us!
Casting out demons was (is) a big part of Christs ministry.
I think we are deluded into thinking it is something other than the Devil's work. That is why no one is healed or cured because they are not seeking the right medicine.
That's a good point.
The way i explained it after further reading from "Homosexuality and the Ordination of Women" by H.H. Pope Shenouda III, and your guys' repsonses, I told them that it maybe uncertain medically if a person can be born with homosexual tendencies or not, but even if they are then it doesn't change anything. If they act on it then it is a sin. Some people will say that it is unfair that God lets them be born with sin, but this view is flawed because just having a homosexual "tendency" isn't a sin unless you act on it. It's just like when you want to eat something fitari in the fast, you have the tendency, or the want to eat something not permitted but it isn't bad unless you act on it.
No not at all... I guess it's all a humor that people are born as homosexuals. They tend to develop feelings only when their instincts and inner soul allows them. the hormones inside their body exaggerate and they start feeling for the same sex. it's not their fault. It's their soul that tells them this thing. Even the court has accepted the relationship status of this homo sexuality. I won't find anything bad in it.
You are being sarcastic right? If not, then i don't know what to tell you lol.
If it were not for prayers, St. Moses the Strong would not have repented. If it were not for the love of St. John, St. Paesa would have died in sin. If they had wated their time thinking that they were psychiatrists an handing around blanket answers, they would have lost souls.
Just remember, while you sit there and type about what you know little about, another person gave up the struggle against this sin. Another homosexual male has fallen and refused to turn back, because when he turned back for support in prayer, he received pseudo-scientific accusations.
Homosexual acts/lust is a sin. The orientation is a disease, not a sin. We don't know enough about it's roots, and we are not psychiatrists, or clinicians. We are Christians, we have love. We have aid to those who need it. Not pseudo-science for those who don't need it.
Pray for the repentance of these children of God. Weep at their pain. Rejoice at their returning. Give up vain pursuits. They need love, God, help. Not accusation.
Fr. Thomas Hopko has a good book on the issue. It is written from an educated point of view; theologically and socially. It is probably the best book on the issue.
ReturnOrthodoxy
[quote author=Claudioren link=topic=13501.msg157994#msg157994 date=1343027899]
No not at all... I guess it's all a humor that people are born as homosexuals. They tend to develop feelings only when their instincts and inner soul allows them. the hormones inside their body exaggerate and they start feeling for the same sex. it's not their fault. It's their soul that tells them this thing. Even the court has accepted the relationship status of this homo sexuality. I won't find anything bad in it.
You are being sarcastic right? If not, then i don't know what to tell you lol.
lol I think it's a bot!
Homosexuality is a difficult topic. Few of us here are able to discuss it in depth and know the dimensions of it. Few of us have experienced the pain of unwanted same sex attraction. Pretending like it is not real does little to fix the problem. To say with certainty that there is no biological correlation is as baseless as ground zero. Studies are ongoing, and in the meantime, the question we must be concerned with is how to get those souls who struggle with this problem to a harbour of peace, safety, and righteousness. I assure you, it is not in childish remarks regarding the source of the problem but in a loving consideration of the difficulties pertaining to these people. Often, we become overly zealous. Elder paesius tells us that we could be handing out crowns of gold to people, but we could do it do hard that we break their heads. We must be peaceful. We must be loving. We must suffer for and with them. The pain felt by a person aware of a homosexual tendency is great. Have you ever considered carrying that weight with him? Or are we only concerned with science.
If it were not for prayers, St. Moses the Strong would not have repented. If it were not for the love of St. John, St. Paesa would have died in sin. If they had wated their time thinking that they were psychiatrists an handing around blanket answers, they would have lost souls.
Just remember, while you sit there and type about what you know little about, another person gave up the struggle against this sin. Another homosexual male has fallen and refused to turn back, because when he turned back for support in prayer, he received pseudo-scientific accusations.
Homosexual acts/lust is a sin. The orientation is a disease, not a sin. We don't know enough about it's roots, and we are not psychiatrists, or clinicians. We are Christians, we have love. We have aid to those who need it. Not pseudo-science for those who don't need it.
Pray for the repentance of these children of God. Weep at their pain. Rejoice at their returning. Give up vain pursuits. They need love, God, help. Not accusation.
Fr. Thomas Hopko has a good book on the issue. It is written from an educated point of view; theologically and socially. It is probably the best book on the issue.
ReturnOrthodoxy
I love your response ReturnOrthodoxy, but I never said that it was impossible for someone to be homosexual. Pope Shenouda even said that he isn't sure if they are or not. He believes that people can't be homosexual by nature, but even if this is true he says that it doesn't change anything. It is a cross that you have to deal with.
Simon of Cyrene took a blessing and shared in the life giving sufferings of Christ. Today, we are presented with the same choice.
ReturnOrthodoxy
Lol, Geo, my comment was aimed not at you, but at those who want to pin it on demons, ignoring the need for open minded research. But you are absolutely correct, brother. It is a cross that they need to carry. A heavy one. Let's all carry together.
Simon of Cyrene took a blessing and shared in the life giving sufferings of Christ. Today, we are presented with the same choice.
ReturnOrthodoxy
Oh, sorry for misunderstanding as usual lol. I couldn't have said it better.