[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158060#msg158060 date=1343224232] That is exactly my point.
Constantine should not be recited in any manner as a saint.
Obviously, you like to twist my conclusions. I'll make it simple. The Commemoration in the Coptic Church Midnight Psalmody is called "The Commemoration of St Mary, the Angles, the martyrs and the saints." King Constantine's intercessions are sought by faithful Orthodox Christians. Now you have extended judgment on all Copts who pray the Midnight Psalmody and the Commemoration of the Saints as heretics.
You have not given any manuscript evidence of when King Constantine was "added" to the Commemoration by mistake. You have not given any official position that he is not a saint. Now you claim the Holy Synod agrees with you without any references. Stop trying to have the last word.
[quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=13549.msg158076#msg158076 date=1343238177] [quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158060#msg158060 date=1343224232] That is exactly my point.
Constantine should not be recited in any manner as a saint.
Obviously, you like to twist my conclusions. I'll make it simple. The Commemoration in the Coptic Church Midnight Psalmody is called "The Commemoration of St Mary, the Angles, the martyrs and the saints." King Constantine's intercessions are sought by faithful Orthodox Christians. Now you have extended judgment on all Copts who pray the Midnight Psalmody and the Commemoration of the Saints as heretics.
You have not given any manuscript evidence of when King Constantine was "added" to the Commemoration by mistake. You have not given any official position that he is not a saint. Now you claim the Holy Synod agrees with you without any references. Stop trying to have the last word.
Whatever.
I am not saying that the Holy Synod agrees with me but the other way around.
I did not say that those who mention him are heretics. They are simply ignorant of the facts.
If you want to know more call Fr. Shenouda Maher who is an authority on these matters. He will be able to explain to you the stance on Constantin's sainthood, how the Byzantines tricked us in his supposedly Orthodox baptism, what efforts underway to remove him from the dyptich.
If you are interested in speaking with him, pm me.
Let me put it this way because this is getting annoying. Whether he is a saint or not, it makes no difference to you. So stop arguing about it. Since we cant come to a conclusion, why dont you pray and ask God and have Him show you, as i said before. It makes no difference whether we say him or not in the commemoration. If he isnt a saint then we wasted 3.5 extra seconds of our lives. If he is a saint we got a King who is highly regarded in front of Christ interceding for us. So i think until we know for sure whether he is or not we should continue to ask just in case. And again im going to repeat if King Constantine appeared to St. Pishoy then he is a saint. I hope you can agree with me on that point. Also, just because he was baptized by an arian doesnt mean he didnt fix his error. And on top of that Who in the world are we to judge whether the guy is a saint or not??? i dont understand why we talk about these miniscule topics that dont bring us here or there. Its more important for us to learn about the theology of our church and the sayings of the fathers and to help people with any issues than to discuss matters in which no one wants to change their views. Finally, I pray that God shows us who He truly is, and whether King Constantine is a saint or not and i hope to God that if he is he forgives us for sitting here and condemning him
[quote author=christ_rose link=topic=13549.msg158082#msg158082 date=1343246218] Let me put it this way because this is getting annoying. Whether he is a saint or not, it makes no difference to you. So stop arguing about it. Since we cant come to a conclusion, why dont you pray and ask God and have Him show you, as i said before. It makes no difference whether we say him or not in the commemoration. If he isnt a saint then we wasted 3.5 extra seconds of our lives. If he is a saint we got a King who is highly regarded in front of Christ interceding for us. So i think until we know for sure whether he is or not we should continue to ask just in case. And again im going to repeat if King Constantine appeared to St. Pishoy then he is a saint. I hope you can agree with me on that point. Also, just because he was baptized by an arian doesnt mean he didnt fix his error. And on top of that Who in the world are we to judge whether the guy is a saint or not??? i dont understand why we talk about these miniscule topics that dont bring us here or there. Its more important for us to learn about the theology of our church and the sayings of the fathers and to help people with any issues than to discuss matters in which no one wants to change their views. Finally, I pray that God shows us who He truly is, and whether King Constantine is a saint or not and i hope to God that if he is he forgives us for sitting here and condemning him
It makes a huge difference.
If we accept Constantine as a saint with his Arian belief and Arian baptism, then we should accept all heretics as true Orthodox Christians.
The issue is fundamental to what Orthodoxy is and what baptism is.
Why can't we pray for the intercession of Constantine for the ecumenical coming together of churches as God purposed him. Even though he ended up reneging on a lot of things, marriage promises, faith and so-forth, he got councils together and one in which our church excelled.
When it comes to Athanasius, I think he reneged with him too and that is why Constantine was angry with Athanasius. Athanasius wrote the creed but Constantine felt his own power and the history of the roman empire come down to something he wasn't so sure of. When someone reneges it is because they aren't sure and go back on what they first went with. We know Athanasius wrote the creed but because of Constantine reneging, this is lost to all except us.
Why can't we pray for the intercession of Constantine for the ecumenical coming together of churches as God purposed him. Even though he ended up reneging on a lot of things, marriage promises, faith and so-forth, he got councils together and one in which our church excelled.
When it comes to Athanasius, I think he reneged with him too and that is why Constantine was angry with Athanasius. Athanasius wrote the creed but Constantine felt his own power and the history of the roman empire come down to something he wasn't so sure of. When someone reneges it is because they aren't sure and go back on what they first went with. We know Athanasius wrote the creed but because of Constantine reneging, this is lost to all except us.
Taking this logic further, then the good works of anyone would save him. No need for the correct faith, no need for baptism.
How about Pharoah, it was through him that God fulfilled his purpose - delivering His people out of Egypt. Why would he be blamed? How about Judas?
Faith is the beginning of salvation and without baptism there is no salvation.
Constantine had neither faith nor baptism. That is why the Church does not recognize him as a saint.
I understand where you are coming from, he was a heretic and is not acceptable, however, he was unique in that what he did was ecumenical and even his faults you could compare with other churches in that we don't agree, but this is what being ecumenical is about. We aren't losing our dogma and I hope we don't defend it with pride but be joyfully humble in it, knowing we have the correct dogma and that it is offered and not argued over. I think we should keep him for ecumenical purpose and we can't say that of any other heretic. God is righteous and ecumenical is being righteous.
No, ecumenical isn't being righteous. It means "general, universal". We ought to be ecumenical in the correct faith. We ought not to compromise on faith for the purposes of unity. Otherwise the unity achieved will be meaningless.
Ecumenical is to try and unite different churches and righteous is to be morally right, but also to be good and just. To be just takes wisdom. So then we are questioning wisdom.
If King Constantine is in the Midnight Psalmody and I don't know if it is a recent inclusion or not, but I might accept him as he is a saint in a church that we don't concider hereticical.
There is the question of salvation. If we say he is a heretic because he believed the Son is not equal to the Father and we say the Son is equal to the Father then he doesn't agree with our church and we can't say he has the criteria for salvation. If this is so then it would be an empty prayer to have him in our prayer. I don't know the reason why he would be in our psalmody but he bought the churches together and this is just and good, also the creed came from it in which a common agreement amongst churches is found. Who is to say God hasn't made an exemption and also if he is a saint in another church are we to say they are unwise and also question their criteria of salvation?
We rely on God's mercy and God's mercy may of saved Constantine, I don't know, but did he do service for Christ? I would say yes, and if he did? Would he of being rewarded?Again I would think yes ,as an exception.
Who is to say God HAS made an exemption? Many people do good things who are ultimately not saved. Just as faith without works is dead, so too works without faith are dead. Other churches' practices should not be followed if they are wrong. The whole point of this thread is to determine the truth - is Constantine a saint? Finally, I would like to say that I don't have any evidence Constantine is not a saint; I'm just rebutting your arguments, which I see are flawed.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158111#msg158111 date=1343302353] [quote author=christ_rose link=topic=13549.msg158082#msg158082 date=1343246218] Let me put it this way because this is getting annoying. Whether he is a saint or not, it makes no difference to you. So stop arguing about it. Since we cant come to a conclusion, why dont you pray and ask God and have Him show you, as i said before. It makes no difference whether we say him or not in the commemoration. If he isnt a saint then we wasted 3.5 extra seconds of our lives. If he is a saint we got a King who is highly regarded in front of Christ interceding for us. So i think until we know for sure whether he is or not we should continue to ask just in case. And again im going to repeat if King Constantine appeared to St. Pishoy then he is a saint. I hope you can agree with me on that point. Also, just because he was baptized by an arian doesnt mean he didnt fix his error. And on top of that Who in the world are we to judge whether the guy is a saint or not??? i dont understand why we talk about these miniscule topics that dont bring us here or there. Its more important for us to learn about the theology of our church and the sayings of the fathers and to help people with any issues than to discuss matters in which no one wants to change their views. Finally, I pray that God shows us who He truly is, and whether King Constantine is a saint or not and i hope to God that if he is he forgives us for sitting here and condemning him
It makes a huge difference.
If we accept Constantine as a saint with his Arian belief and Arian baptism, then we should accept all heretics as true Orthodox Christians.
The issue is fundamental to what Orthodoxy is and what baptism is.
Thus we cannot accept Constantine's sainthood.
You keep saying his "arien belief" Can you give one example of Constantine denying the Divinity of Christ? or Him saying that Christ did not always exist as the Son, ie Eternal?
Constantine was baptized in Nicodemia by an Arian sympathizer, because he was wounded and was about to die. From where do you get that he took the side of Ariens?
Regarding St. Athanasius He was exiled 5x:
First exile: under Emperor Constantine, for 2.5 years [11 Jul 335 – 22 Nov 337]; in Trier (Germany).
Second exile: under Emperor Constantius, for 7.5 years [16 Apr 339 – 21 Oct 346]; lived at Rome.
Third exile: under Emperor Constantius, for 6 years [9 Feb 356 – 21 Feb 362]; in the Egyptian desert.
Fourth exile: under Apostate Emperor Julian, 10 months [24 Oct 362 – 5 Sep 363]; in the Egyptian desert.
Fifth exile: under Emperor Valens, 4 months [5 Oct 365 – 31 Jan 366]; in his father's tomb.
This does make sense because Constantine died May 22, 337 - and St. Athanasius was exiled 11 Jul 335 – 22 Nov 337 , which means Constantine exiled St. Athanasius and constantines son brought him back then exiled him again. I know Constantius II (Constantine's son) could not stand St. Athanasius.
Does anyone have any sources on why Constantine exiled St. Athanasius after the council of Nicea?
Yes many people do good things as you say, but have they done as much for Christ as being part of the empire that cost him his life and then changing to follow him and also bringing the church together to form a common agreement. Are these things just good works? What is the flaw other than your rebuttal?Also you say you don't have any evidence to say he isn't a saint. I have given evidence to say he isn't, but because he is in the Midnight Psalmody, then I also can see the wisdom of him being there. I don't like the idea of someone being in the Midnight Psalmody when our Pope was alive and then there is the thought of removing him. Our Pope did alot of Ecumenical work.
I don't like the idea of someone being in the Midnight Psalmody when our Pope was alive and then there is the thought of removing him. Our Pope did alot of Ecumenical work.
If you are referring to HH Pope Shenouda. He knew and approved of his removal.
Again, the Church cannot accept an Arian as a saint, no matter how good his deeds might be.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158155#msg158155 date=1343407246] If you are referring to HH Pope Shenouda. He knew and approved of his removal.
[quote author=✞TheGodChrist✞ link=topic=13549.msg158156#msg158156 date=1343407949] [quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158155#msg158155 date=1343407246] If you are referring to HH Pope Shenouda. He knew and approved of his removal.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158157#msg158157 date=1343408671] [quote author=✞TheGodChrist✞ link=topic=13549.msg158156#msg158156 date=1343407949] [quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158155#msg158155 date=1343407246] If you are referring to HH Pope Shenouda. He knew and approved of his removal.
Source or reference?
✞✞✞
Read my previous posts
I did.
I could not locate a reference from any of His Holiness' writings or sayings in your posts on this topic.
[quote author=✞TheGodChrist✞ link=topic=13549.msg158158#msg158158 date=1343413698] [quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158157#msg158157 date=1343408671] [quote author=✞TheGodChrist✞ link=topic=13549.msg158156#msg158156 date=1343407949] [quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158155#msg158155 date=1343407246] If you are referring to HH Pope Shenouda. He knew and approved of his removal.
Source or reference?
✞✞✞
Read my previous posts
I did.
I could not locate a reference from any of His Holiness' writings or sayings in your posts on this topic.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158159#msg158159 date=1343414144] [quote author=✞TheGodChrist✞ link=topic=13549.msg158158#msg158158 date=1343413698] [quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158157#msg158157 date=1343408671] [quote author=✞TheGodChrist✞ link=topic=13549.msg158156#msg158156 date=1343407949] [quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158155#msg158155 date=1343407246] If you are referring to HH Pope Shenouda. He knew and approved of his removal.
Source or reference?
✞✞✞
Read my previous posts
I did.
I could not locate a reference from any of His Holiness' writings or sayings in your posts on this topic.
Please highlight them for me.
✞✞✞
Post 32.
Post 32 [quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158079#msg158079 date=1343239489] If you want to know more call Fr. Shenouda Maher who is an authority on these matters. He will be able to explain to you the stance on Constantin's sainthood, how the Byzantines tricked us in his supposedly Orthodox baptism, what efforts underway to remove him from the dyptich.
If you are interested in speaking with him, pm me.
With all due respect, this is a referral...not a reference.
Do you have any written statements on King Constantine's sainthood from H.H. Pope Shenouda III?
[quote author=✞TheGodChrist✞ link=topic=13549.msg158160#msg158160 date=1343414723] [quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158159#msg158159 date=1343414144] [quote author=✞TheGodChrist✞ link=topic=13549.msg158158#msg158158 date=1343413698] [quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158157#msg158157 date=1343408671] [quote author=✞TheGodChrist✞ link=topic=13549.msg158156#msg158156 date=1343407949] [quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158155#msg158155 date=1343407246] If you are referring to HH Pope Shenouda. He knew and approved of his removal.
Source or reference?
✞✞✞
Read my previous posts
I did.
I could not locate a reference from any of His Holiness' writings or sayings in your posts on this topic.
Please highlight them for me.
✞✞✞
Post 32.
Post 32 [quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158079#msg158079 date=1343239489] If you want to know more call Fr. Shenouda Maher who is an authority on these matters. He will be able to explain to you the stance on Constantin's sainthood, how the Byzantines tricked us in his supposedly Orthodox baptism, what efforts underway to remove him from the dyptich.
If you are interested in speaking with him, pm me.
With all due respect, this is a referral...not a reference.
Do you have any written statements on King Constantine's sainthood from H.H. Pope Shenouda III?
I am quite interested.
✞✞✞
If you are quite interested, I urge you to talk to Abouna Shenouda Maher, he will be able to give you all the info you need.
Rest assured that Constantine is not a saint and he will be removed from the dyptich.
[quote author=Pharaoh714 link=topic=13549.msg158169#msg158169 date=1343424681] What about the Icons painted of Constantine in Hagia Sofia from the early Church should they be destroyed?
I am going to order this book and read it, I hear it is very good explanation of why Constantine is a Saint by the E.O. We should at least give it a chance before making a decision.
But please don't bother Abouna Shenouda with phone calls. He won't get any rest if he gets phone calls from all of you.
Also, another thing, there is a lot of things that are happening which the Synod has not taken a decision on yet. So stop asking for writings or sources or whatever. Just wait until decisions are made. I think these topics make it on these forums way too early.
Just a reminder, the forums are not where decisions are made or policies are enforced. It is for discussion only. Let's let the scholars do their job. It's not our uneducated judgement that will make the decisions for the Synod.
I may sound harm, but believe me, I just want you guys to rest assured.
Okay, maybe I said more than one thing. But I said it.
In the COC, Emperor Constantine is a Saint, period!
1) Why is Emperor Constantine canonized as a Saint (at least in the Eastern Orthodox Church)? The most cursory glance at history would show him very much steeped in paganism and with vicious military/foreign policies. In addition, he was baptized on his deathbed not to mention by an Arian. Are there any Traditions or Patristic writings (Lactantius aside) that would show that he truly deserves canonicity?
Our Church celebrates Emperor Constantine and calls him the great for his role in ending the persecution of the Christians and promoting Christianity. Emperor Constantine was very much involved in the Church's affairs, had churches built and made legislations based on Christian beliefs and morals. The Nicene Creed was first adopted at the first ecumenical council convened by Emperor Constantine in Nicea in 325 AD. Constantine made Christianity the official state religion of the Roman Empire (Edict of Milan, early in 313).
2)Why does the Coptic Orthodox church consider Constantine the Great a saint mentioning his name in the Synaxarium; when he had helped Arius against Pope Alexander, according to late father Mansy Yohanna's book about the church history?
Although it is true that Constantine, at one point, sided with Arius and ordered his return from exile; we celebrate Constantine the Great for his great role in ending the persecution of the Christians and promoting Christianity. Constantine made Christianity the official state religion of the Roman Empire (Edict of Milan, early in 313).
When the controversy between Pope Alexander and Arius regarding the nature of Christ arose, Constantine wrote a letter to both of them hoping to bring about reconciliation. When that failed, he was the one who convened the first ecumenical council in Nicea in 325.
3)King Constantine was believed to have been baptized by an Arian, on his death bed. How could we then verify his sainthood?
Emperor Constantine changed the course of the world history. After accepting Christianity, he reconstructed Byzantium, renaming it Constantinople and made Christianity, which until then had suffered blood persecution, the official religion of the State.
Constantine built several churches and became involved in ecclesiastical politics, going so far as to convene the first world-wide "ecumenical" council in Church history in Nicea in 325.
[quote author=Ηεζεκιελ link=topic=13549.msg158281#msg158281 date=1343672872] In the COC, Emperor Constantine is a Saint, period!
1) Why is Emperor Constantine canonized as a Saint (at least in the Eastern Orthodox Church)? The most cursory glance at history would show him very much steeped in paganism and with vicious military/foreign policies. In addition, he was baptized on his deathbed not to mention by an Arian. Are there any Traditions or Patristic writings (Lactantius aside) that would show that he truly deserves canonicity?
Our Church celebrates Emperor Constantine and calls him the great for his role in ending the persecution of the Christians and promoting Christianity. Emperor Constantine was very much involved in the Church's affairs, had churches built and made legislations based on Christian beliefs and morals. The Nicene Creed was first adopted at the first ecumenical council convened by Emperor Constantine in Nicea in 325 AD. Constantine made Christianity the official state religion of the Roman Empire (Edict of Milan, early in 313).
2)Why does the Coptic Orthodox church consider Constantine the Great a saint mentioning his name in the Synaxarium; when he had helped Arius against Pope Alexander, according to late father Mansy Yohanna's book about the church history?
Although it is true that Constantine, at one point, sided with Arius and ordered his return from exile; we celebrate Constantine the Great for his great role in ending the persecution of the Christians and promoting Christianity. Constantine made Christianity the official state religion of the Roman Empire (Edict of Milan, early in 313).
When the controversy between Pope Alexander and Arius regarding the nature of Christ arose, Constantine wrote a letter to both of them hoping to bring about reconciliation. When that failed, he was the one who convened the first ecumenical council in Nicea in 325.
3)King Constantine was believed to have been baptized by an Arian, on his death bed. How could we then verify his sainthood?
Emperor Constantine changed the course of the world history. After accepting Christianity, he reconstructed Byzantium, renaming it Constantinople and made Christianity, which until then had suffered blood persecution, the official religion of the State.
Constantine built several churches and became involved in ecclesiastical politics, going so far as to convene the first world-wide "ecumenical" council in Church history in Nicea in 325.
[quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=13549.msg157985#msg157985 date=1343009702] I'd like to point out that Raphael Tuki is Coptic Catholic, not Coptic Orthodox. If you look at the last page, right after he gives the verse about King Constantine, you'll notice on the left margin a note that says ausanswpi ka;oliky. This means "If they are Catholic". In his Theotokia, the only patriarchs and bishops to be mentioned in the commemoration are Catholic bishops.
I only mention this because Tuki's Theotokia really only proves that King Constantine is saint in the Catholic Church. It doesn't mean he is a saint in the Coptic Orthodox Church (by this document only). It also doesn't conclusively prove that King Constantine is a saint in 17th century Coptic Catholic Church. It could be a copyist's addition. It is important to remember that analytical theory requires percise judgment.
I think there are other early manuscripts that show Constantine was a saint in the Coptic Orthodox Church. I'll check around.
The Emperor Constantine is NOT a saint in the Catholic Church. He's only a saint in the Eastern Orthodox Church, where Emperors usually make it in the commemoration of the saints because of their equality to the Patriarchs.
I would like to let you know imikhail that your argument is unbelievable and that your care for such a trivial subject is outrageous and quite frankly pointless. Focus on your relationship with Our Lord and falling in love with Him more, instead of arguing about who is a saint and who isn't. We will find out soon enough. You are wasting the time you have to pray and worship on worrying about who in our church is a saint. I told you already, pray and ask God and he will tell you. That is if you believe that our God is a God to be loved and asked and spoken to and one that answers. Just do that. And When God himself gives you a clear message and tells you whether he is a saint or not then come let us no. As of now you have convinced many of us of nothing. And will not convince because your arguments have no foundation. and by the way just because someone said he shouldnt be a saint doesnt mean he isnt. and another thing people, even clergymembers, make mistakes. so if they say he isnt a saint how do you know they arent wrong. And how do you know that just because he isnt a saint in the COC, if he isnt, that he isnt a saint with God. And if he isnt a saint does that mean hes going to hell since he is a heretic. IF so then you are judging and I dont think that that is approved of. You also havent refuted anything that anyone has said you just stick to what you say and thats it. And thats an argumentative fallacy.
I would like to let you know imikhail that your argument is unbelievable and that your care for such a trivial subject is outrageous and quite frankly pointless
If it is so, then why did you spend the effort to write your note?
Comments
That is exactly my point.
Constantine should not be recited in any manner as a saint.
Obviously, you like to twist my conclusions. I'll make it simple. The Commemoration in the Coptic Church Midnight Psalmody is called "The Commemoration of St Mary, the Angles, the martyrs and the saints." King Constantine's intercessions are sought by faithful Orthodox Christians. Now you have extended judgment on all Copts who pray the Midnight Psalmody and the Commemoration of the Saints as heretics.
You have not given any manuscript evidence of when King Constantine was "added" to the Commemoration by mistake. You have not given any official position that he is not a saint. Now you claim the Holy Synod agrees with you without any references. Stop trying to have the last word.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158060#msg158060 date=1343224232]
That is exactly my point.
Constantine should not be recited in any manner as a saint.
Obviously, you like to twist my conclusions. I'll make it simple. The Commemoration in the Coptic Church Midnight Psalmody is called "The Commemoration of St Mary, the Angles, the martyrs and the saints." King Constantine's intercessions are sought by faithful Orthodox Christians. Now you have extended judgment on all Copts who pray the Midnight Psalmody and the Commemoration of the Saints as heretics.
You have not given any manuscript evidence of when King Constantine was "added" to the Commemoration by mistake. You have not given any official position that he is not a saint. Now you claim the Holy Synod agrees with you without any references. Stop trying to have the last word.
Whatever.
I am not saying that the Holy Synod agrees with me but the other way around.
I did not say that those who mention him are heretics. They are simply ignorant of the facts.
If you want to know more call Fr. Shenouda Maher who is an authority on these matters. He will be able to explain to you the stance on Constantin's sainthood, how the Byzantines tricked us in his supposedly Orthodox baptism, what efforts underway to remove him from the dyptich.
If you are interested in speaking with him, pm me.
Let me put it this way because this is getting annoying. Whether he is a saint or not, it makes no difference to you. So stop arguing about it. Since we cant come to a conclusion, why dont you pray and ask God and have Him show you, as i said before. It makes no difference whether we say him or not in the commemoration. If he isnt a saint then we wasted 3.5 extra seconds of our lives. If he is a saint we got a King who is highly regarded in front of Christ interceding for us. So i think until we know for sure whether he is or not we should continue to ask just in case. And again im going to repeat if King Constantine appeared to St. Pishoy then he is a saint. I hope you can agree with me on that point. Also, just because he was baptized by an arian doesnt mean he didnt fix his error. And on top of that Who in the world are we to judge whether the guy is a saint or not??? i dont understand why we talk about these miniscule topics that dont bring us here or there. Its more important for us to learn about the theology of our church and the sayings of the fathers and to help people with any issues than to discuss matters in which no one wants to change their views. Finally, I pray that God shows us who He truly is, and whether King Constantine is a saint or not and i hope to God that if he is he forgives us for sitting here and condemning him
It makes a huge difference.
If we accept Constantine as a saint with his Arian belief and Arian baptism, then we should accept all heretics as true Orthodox Christians.
The issue is fundamental to what Orthodoxy is and what baptism is.
Thus we cannot accept Constantine's sainthood.
Why can't we pray for the intercession of Constantine for the ecumenical coming together of churches as God purposed him. Even though he ended up reneging on a lot of things, marriage promises, faith and so-forth, he got councils together and one in which our church excelled.
When it comes to Athanasius, I think he reneged with him too and that is why Constantine was angry with Athanasius. Athanasius wrote the creed but Constantine felt his own power and the history of the roman empire come down to something he wasn't so sure of. When someone reneges it is because they aren't sure and go back on what they first went with. We know Athanasius wrote the creed but because of Constantine reneging, this is lost to all except us.
Why can't we pray for the intercession of Constantine for the ecumenical coming together of churches as God purposed him. Even though he ended up reneging on a lot of things, marriage promises, faith and so-forth, he got councils together and one in which our church excelled.
When it comes to Athanasius, I think he reneged with him too and that is why Constantine was angry with Athanasius. Athanasius wrote the creed but Constantine felt his own power and the history of the roman empire come down to something he wasn't so sure of. When someone reneges it is because they aren't sure and go back on what they first went with. We know Athanasius wrote the creed but because of Constantine reneging, this is lost to all except us.
Taking this logic further, then the good works of anyone would save him. No need for the correct faith, no need for baptism.
How about Pharoah, it was through him that God fulfilled his purpose - delivering His people out of Egypt. Why would he be blamed? How about Judas?
Faith is the beginning of salvation and without baptism there is no salvation.
Constantine had neither faith nor baptism. That is why the Church does not recognize him as a saint.
God is righteous and ecumenical is being righteous.
It means "general, universal".
We ought to be ecumenical in the correct faith.
We ought not to compromise on faith for the purposes of unity.
Otherwise the unity achieved will be meaningless.
Ecumenical is to try and unite different churches and righteous is to be morally right, but also to be good and just. To be just takes wisdom. So then we are questioning wisdom.
If King Constantine is in the Midnight Psalmody and I don't know if it is a recent inclusion or not, but I might accept him as he is a saint in a church that we don't concider hereticical.
There is the question of salvation. If we say he is a heretic because he believed the Son is not equal to the Father and we say the Son is equal to the Father then he doesn't agree with our church and we can't say he has the criteria for salvation. If this is so then it would be an empty prayer to have him in our prayer.
I don't know the reason why he would be in our psalmody but he bought the churches together and this is just and good, also the creed came from it in which a common agreement amongst churches is found. Who is to say God hasn't made an exemption and also if he is a saint in another church are we to say they are unwise and also question their criteria of salvation?
We rely on God's mercy and God's mercy may of saved Constantine, I don't know, but did he do service for Christ? I would say yes, and if he did? Would he of being rewarded?Again I would think yes ,as an exception.
Many people do good things who are ultimately not saved. Just as faith without works is dead, so too works without faith are dead.
Other churches' practices should not be followed if they are wrong. The whole point of this thread is to determine the truth - is Constantine a saint?
Finally, I would like to say that I don't have any evidence Constantine is not a saint; I'm just rebutting your arguments, which I see are flawed.
[quote author=christ_rose link=topic=13549.msg158082#msg158082 date=1343246218]
Let me put it this way because this is getting annoying. Whether he is a saint or not, it makes no difference to you. So stop arguing about it. Since we cant come to a conclusion, why dont you pray and ask God and have Him show you, as i said before. It makes no difference whether we say him or not in the commemoration. If he isnt a saint then we wasted 3.5 extra seconds of our lives. If he is a saint we got a King who is highly regarded in front of Christ interceding for us. So i think until we know for sure whether he is or not we should continue to ask just in case. And again im going to repeat if King Constantine appeared to St. Pishoy then he is a saint. I hope you can agree with me on that point. Also, just because he was baptized by an arian doesnt mean he didnt fix his error. And on top of that Who in the world are we to judge whether the guy is a saint or not??? i dont understand why we talk about these miniscule topics that dont bring us here or there. Its more important for us to learn about the theology of our church and the sayings of the fathers and to help people with any issues than to discuss matters in which no one wants to change their views. Finally, I pray that God shows us who He truly is, and whether King Constantine is a saint or not and i hope to God that if he is he forgives us for sitting here and condemning him
It makes a huge difference.
If we accept Constantine as a saint with his Arian belief and Arian baptism, then we should accept all heretics as true Orthodox Christians.
The issue is fundamental to what Orthodoxy is and what baptism is.
Thus we cannot accept Constantine's sainthood.
You keep saying his "arien belief" Can you give one example of Constantine denying the Divinity of Christ? or Him saying that Christ did not always exist as the Son, ie Eternal?
Constantine was baptized in Nicodemia by an Arian sympathizer, because he was wounded and was about to die. From where do you get that he took the side of Ariens?
Regarding St. Athanasius He was exiled 5x:
First exile: under Emperor Constantine, for 2.5 years [11 Jul 335 – 22 Nov 337]; in Trier (Germany).
Second exile: under Emperor Constantius, for 7.5 years [16 Apr 339 – 21 Oct 346]; lived at Rome.
Third exile: under Emperor Constantius, for 6 years [9 Feb 356 – 21 Feb 362]; in the Egyptian desert.
Fourth exile: under Apostate Emperor Julian, 10 months [24 Oct 362 – 5 Sep 363]; in the Egyptian desert.
Fifth exile: under Emperor Valens, 4 months [5 Oct 365 – 31 Jan 366]; in his father's tomb.
This does make sense because Constantine died May 22, 337 - and St. Athanasius was exiled 11 Jul 335 – 22 Nov 337 , which means Constantine exiled St. Athanasius and constantines son brought him back then exiled him again. I know Constantius II (Constantine's son) could not stand St. Athanasius.
Does anyone have any sources on why Constantine exiled St. Athanasius after the council of Nicea?
I don't like the idea of someone being in the Midnight Psalmody when our Pope was alive and then there is the thought of removing him. Our Pope did alot of Ecumenical work.
Again, the Church cannot accept an Arian as a saint, no matter how good his deeds might be.
If you are referring to HH Pope Shenouda. He knew and approved of his removal.
Source or reference?
✞✞✞
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158155#msg158155 date=1343407246]
If you are referring to HH Pope Shenouda. He knew and approved of his removal.
Source or reference?
✞✞✞
Read my previous posts
[quote author=✞TheGodChrist✞ link=topic=13549.msg158156#msg158156 date=1343407949]
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158155#msg158155 date=1343407246]
If you are referring to HH Pope Shenouda. He knew and approved of his removal.
Source or reference?
✞✞✞
Read my previous posts
I did.
I could not locate a reference from any of His Holiness' writings or sayings in your posts on this topic.
Please highlight them for me.
✞✞✞
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158157#msg158157 date=1343408671]
[quote author=✞TheGodChrist✞ link=topic=13549.msg158156#msg158156 date=1343407949]
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158155#msg158155 date=1343407246]
If you are referring to HH Pope Shenouda. He knew and approved of his removal.
Source or reference?
✞✞✞
Read my previous posts
I did.
I could not locate a reference from any of His Holiness' writings or sayings in your posts on this topic.
Please highlight them for me.
✞✞✞
Post 32.
[quote author=✞TheGodChrist✞ link=topic=13549.msg158158#msg158158 date=1343413698]
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158157#msg158157 date=1343408671]
[quote author=✞TheGodChrist✞ link=topic=13549.msg158156#msg158156 date=1343407949]
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158155#msg158155 date=1343407246]
If you are referring to HH Pope Shenouda. He knew and approved of his removal.
Source or reference?
✞✞✞
Read my previous posts
I did.
I could not locate a reference from any of His Holiness' writings or sayings in your posts on this topic.
Please highlight them for me.
✞✞✞
Post 32.
Post 32
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158079#msg158079 date=1343239489]
If you want to know more call Fr. Shenouda Maher who is an authority on these matters. He will be able to explain to you the stance on Constantin's sainthood, how the Byzantines tricked us in his supposedly Orthodox baptism, what efforts underway to remove him from the dyptich.
If you are interested in speaking with him, pm me.
With all due respect, this is a referral...not a reference.
Do you have any written statements on King Constantine's sainthood from H.H. Pope Shenouda III?
I am quite interested.
✞✞✞
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158159#msg158159 date=1343414144]
[quote author=✞TheGodChrist✞ link=topic=13549.msg158158#msg158158 date=1343413698]
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158157#msg158157 date=1343408671]
[quote author=✞TheGodChrist✞ link=topic=13549.msg158156#msg158156 date=1343407949]
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158155#msg158155 date=1343407246]
If you are referring to HH Pope Shenouda. He knew and approved of his removal.
Source or reference?
✞✞✞
Read my previous posts
I did.
I could not locate a reference from any of His Holiness' writings or sayings in your posts on this topic.
Please highlight them for me.
✞✞✞
Post 32.
Post 32
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158079#msg158079 date=1343239489]
If you want to know more call Fr. Shenouda Maher who is an authority on these matters. He will be able to explain to you the stance on Constantin's sainthood, how the Byzantines tricked us in his supposedly Orthodox baptism, what efforts underway to remove him from the dyptich.
If you are interested in speaking with him, pm me.
With all due respect, this is a referral...not a reference.
Do you have any written statements on King Constantine's sainthood from H.H. Pope Shenouda III?
I am quite interested.
✞✞✞
If you are quite interested, I urge you to talk to Abouna Shenouda Maher, he will be able to give you all the info you need.
Rest assured that Constantine is not a saint and he will be removed from the dyptich.
PM me and I will get you his contact info.
What about the Icons painted of Constantine in Hagia Sofia from the early Church should they be destroyed?
I do not know about destroying.
No painting of Constantine should be venerated.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0830827226/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=piousfabric-20&linkCode=as2&camp=217145&creative=399373&creativeASIN=0830827226
I just want to say one thing.
What iMikhail is saying is right.
But please don't bother Abouna Shenouda with phone calls. He won't get any rest if he gets phone calls from all of you.
Also, another thing, there is a lot of things that are happening which the Synod has not taken a decision on yet. So stop asking for writings or sources or whatever. Just wait until decisions are made. I think these topics make it on these forums way too early.
Just a reminder, the forums are not where decisions are made or policies are enforced. It is for discussion only. Let's let the scholars do their job. It's not our uneducated judgement that will make the decisions for the Synod.
I may sound harm, but believe me, I just want you guys to rest assured.
Okay, maybe I said more than one thing. But I said it.
Pray for me
1) Why is Emperor Constantine canonized as a Saint (at least in the Eastern Orthodox Church)? The most cursory glance at history would show him very much steeped in paganism and with vicious military/foreign policies. In addition, he was baptized on his deathbed not to mention by an Arian. Are there any Traditions or Patristic writings (Lactantius aside) that would show that he truly deserves canonicity?
Our Church celebrates Emperor Constantine and calls him the great for his role in ending the persecution of the Christians and promoting Christianity. Emperor Constantine was very much involved in the Church's affairs, had churches built and made legislations based on Christian beliefs and morals. The Nicene Creed was first adopted at the first ecumenical council convened by Emperor Constantine in Nicea in 325 AD. Constantine made Christianity the official state religion of the Roman Empire (Edict of Milan, early in 313).
2)Why does the Coptic Orthodox church consider Constantine the Great a saint mentioning his name in the Synaxarium; when he had helped Arius against Pope Alexander, according to late father Mansy Yohanna's book about the church history?
Although it is true that Constantine, at one point, sided with Arius and ordered his return from exile; we celebrate Constantine the Great for his great role in ending the persecution of the Christians and promoting Christianity. Constantine made Christianity the official state religion of the Roman Empire (Edict of Milan, early in 313).
When the controversy between Pope Alexander and Arius regarding the nature of Christ arose, Constantine wrote a letter to both of them hoping to bring about reconciliation. When that failed, he was the one who convened the first ecumenical council in Nicea in 325.
3)King Constantine was believed to have been baptized by an Arian, on his death bed. How could we then verify his sainthood?
Emperor Constantine changed the course of the world history. After accepting Christianity, he reconstructed Byzantium, renaming it Constantinople and made Christianity, which until then had suffered blood persecution, the official religion of the State.
Constantine built several churches and became involved in ecclesiastical politics, going so far as to convene the first world-wide "ecumenical" council in Church history in Nicea in 325.
SOURCEEEE
In the COC, Emperor Constantine is a Saint, period!
1) Why is Emperor Constantine canonized as a Saint (at least in the Eastern Orthodox Church)? The most cursory glance at history would show him very much steeped in paganism and with vicious military/foreign policies. In addition, he was baptized on his deathbed not to mention by an Arian. Are there any Traditions or Patristic writings (Lactantius aside) that would show that he truly deserves canonicity?
Our Church celebrates Emperor Constantine and calls him the great for his role in ending the persecution of the Christians and promoting Christianity. Emperor Constantine was very much involved in the Church's affairs, had churches built and made legislations based on Christian beliefs and morals. The Nicene Creed was first adopted at the first ecumenical council convened by Emperor Constantine in Nicea in 325 AD. Constantine made Christianity the official state religion of the Roman Empire (Edict of Milan, early in 313).
2)Why does the Coptic Orthodox church consider Constantine the Great a saint mentioning his name in the Synaxarium; when he had helped Arius against Pope Alexander, according to late father Mansy Yohanna's book about the church history?
Although it is true that Constantine, at one point, sided with Arius and ordered his return from exile; we celebrate Constantine the Great for his great role in ending the persecution of the Christians and promoting Christianity. Constantine made Christianity the official state religion of the Roman Empire (Edict of Milan, early in 313).
When the controversy between Pope Alexander and Arius regarding the nature of Christ arose, Constantine wrote a letter to both of them hoping to bring about reconciliation. When that failed, he was the one who convened the first ecumenical council in Nicea in 325.
3)King Constantine was believed to have been baptized by an Arian, on his death bed. How could we then verify his sainthood?
Emperor Constantine changed the course of the world history. After accepting Christianity, he reconstructed Byzantium, renaming it Constantinople and made Christianity, which until then had suffered blood persecution, the official religion of the State.
Constantine built several churches and became involved in ecclesiastical politics, going so far as to convene the first world-wide "ecumenical" council in Church history in Nicea in 325.
SOURCEEEE
In the COC, Emperor Constantine is a Saint, period!
He was an Arian baptized by an Arian and died in the Arian faith.
An Arian cannot be accepted as a saint.
I'd like to point out that Raphael Tuki is Coptic Catholic, not Coptic Orthodox. If you look at the last page, right after he gives the verse about King Constantine, you'll notice on the left margin a note that says ausanswpi ka;oliky. This means "If they are Catholic". In his Theotokia, the only patriarchs and bishops to be mentioned in the commemoration are Catholic bishops.
I only mention this because Tuki's Theotokia really only proves that King Constantine is saint in the Catholic Church. It doesn't mean he is a saint in the Coptic Orthodox Church (by this document only). It also doesn't conclusively prove that King Constantine is a saint in 17th century Coptic Catholic Church. It could be a copyist's addition. It is important to remember that analytical theory requires percise judgment.
I think there are other early manuscripts that show Constantine was a saint in the Coptic Orthodox Church. I'll check around.
The Emperor Constantine is NOT a saint in the Catholic Church. He's only a saint in the Eastern Orthodox Church, where Emperors usually make it in the commemoration of the saints because of their equality to the Patriarchs.
I am glad that I at least stirred enough interest in you to the point you took the time to write your thouhgts.
And now I know that you do accept the idea of having heretics been accepted into the Church with no confession.
May the Lord have mercy on His Church and His people.