[quote author=Catholic Child link=topic=69.msg158107#msg158107 date=1343301644] It was very sad reading through this thread as a Catholic. As Catholics we can stand for what we believe in and we know what we believe in, non the less we are taught to Love Coptics and Orthodox Christians as brothers, since our similarities are what bind us together, and this most of us Catholics practice. We advice Catholics to attend the Orthodox or Coptic Church when they dont find any Catholic Church near them, we are taught that the you are supposed to be more friendlier and familiar to us than other Churches, but today i have seen that you do not share the same mind to us as we do to you, we aproach you with love but you aproach us with a differences and hate.
I had the wrong idea about Coptics and Orthodox being our brothers in Christ n this is because i was mislead and taught to Love Coptics and Orthox alike as brothers in Christ.
We do not hate Catholics. This thread is about the dogmatic differences between the two Churches.
This is a very old thread that you have resurrected.
It would not be wise of you to base your judgement about communities on what you read on internet forums. They very rarely indeed present an authentic view of any group.
I am the co-Secretary of the Catholic-Oriental Orthodox Regional Forum in the UK, and meet regularly with Catholic hierarchs, and the hierarchs of our own Orthodox communities, to discover in what ways we can work together, and what things cause us to be separated. I enjoy this forum very much indeed. The differences don't go away, but being able to address them, and our similarities, at the highest level and with great honesty and frankness, is very much a blessing.
Do not believe that anything you read here is representative of anything other than particular people's views, just as I do not believe everything I read on other forums. It is in personal relationships where it is possible to be entirely honest with love that real understanding is forged, both of differences and similarities.
[quote author=Catholic Child link=topic=69.msg158107#msg158107 date=1343301644] It was very sad reading through this thread as a Catholic. As Catholics we can stand for what we believe in and we know what we believe in, non the less we are taught to Love Coptics and Orthodox Christians as brothers, since our similarities are what bind us together, and this most of us Catholics practice. We advice Catholics to attend the Orthodox or Coptic Church when they dont find any Catholic Church near them, we are taught that the you are supposed to be more friendlier and familiar to us than other Churches, but today i have seen that you do not share the same mind to us as we do to you, we aproach you with love but you aproach us with a differences and hate.
I had the wrong idea about Coptics and Orthodox being our brothers in Christ n this is because i was mislead and taught to Love Coptics and Orthox alike as brothers in Christ. Copts ARE Orthodox. To distinguish between Copts and Orthodox Christians is a false dichotomy. The Copts, like all Miaphysite Orthodox, maintain the Orthodox faith of the three ecumenical councils of Nicea, Constantinople, and Ephesus before the imperial Church brought disunity to the universal Church by convening a Nestorian-influenced council (Chalcedon). In any case, the posts you have read do not necessarily reflect the official view of our Clergy and Hierarchy.
[quote author=Severian link=topic=69.msg158114#msg158114 date=1343311849] Copts ARE Orthodox. To distinguish between Copts and Orthodox Christians is a false dichotomy. The Copts, like all Miaphysite Orthodox, maintain the Orthodox faith of the three ecumenical councils of Nicea, Constantinople, and Ephesus before the imperial Church brought disunity to the universal Church by convening a Nestorian-influenced council (Chalcedon). In any case, the posts you have read do not necessarily reflect the official view of our Clergy and Hierarchy.
I don't think the Coptic Catholics would agree with this sentiment... I don't think the Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria has a monopoly on the ethnic term "Copt". It's true that the term Copt is normally only used to describe a Christian of Egyptian descent, and most commonly an Orthodox Christian since that is the largest such group. But Coptic just means "Egyptian". The Greek Orthodox don't go around saying "Greeks ARE Orthodox. To distinguish between Greeks and Orthodox Christians is a false dichotomy". Same thing here. Not all Copts go to Church or practice their religion, and not all Copts are Orthodox, some are Protestant, and some are Catholic.
^I am aware of all this. I thought what I said would be clear from the context. In this case, "Copts" refers to (practicing) members of the national OO Church of Alexandria, who are often referred to as being non-Orthodox due to their rejection of Chalcedon and subsequent councils.
Orthodoxy teaches that, after the soul leaves the body, it journeys to the abode of the dead (Hades). There are exceptions, such as the Theotokos, who was borne by the angels directly into heaven. As for the rest, we must remain in this condition of waiting. Because some have a prevision of the glory to come and others foretaste their suffering, the state of waiting is called "Particular Judgment."
I have to disagree with this. The Oriental Orthodox Faith holds that the souls of the faithful journey into Paradise to await the final resurrection, in accordance with our Lord, Jesus' words to the theif on the cross, "Today you will be with Me in Paradise" [NOT HADES].
Hades is the waiting place of the damned, not the waiting place of the faithful in Christ.
Christ entered Hades when He died on the cross and overcame it and released its captives from it into Paradise where they now dwell consciously with the saints.
^I have read some (mostly EO sources) say that Hades is divided into an abode for the damned and an abode for the righteous. If the previous poster was referring to the latter then it may be just a matter of semantics. I do not know for sure.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=69.msg158173#msg158173 date=1343428287] St Mary is in paradise. No human has entered the Heaven include St. Mary herself.
Fr Tadros writes in his book:
"Her Assumption---This feast commemorates the entrance of St. Mary’s body into heaven, as she preceded us and sat at the right hand of her Bridegroom and Son. It bears a powerful witness to the eschatological truth of our faith, i.e. “the world to come”.
From Armenian Liturgical Hymns on the assumption
"Today the celestial spirits bring to heaven the Abode of the Holy Spirit, making her enter into the heavenly Jerusalem, to the immaculate Tabernacle, to us inaccessible, close to the Holy Trinity.
Today the heavenly spirits have carried to heaven the holy body of the Virgin Theotokos, placing it among the angels to share in the unspeakable delights…
Having lived in this body all-holy life, you are brought by the divine will to the Kingdom of your Son, our God; pray for us . . ."
Fr. Athanasius Iskander comments saying:
"‘Some people ( like imikhail, for example ) are scandalized by the notion that the Virgin’s soul and body were united and that she was taken alive to heaven, but the Holy Book of Revelation tells us that this will happen to the two witnesses (Enoch & Elijah), who, three and a half days after their death, will be resurrected and will ascend into heaven (Rev 11:11,12) - Both the Roman Catholic and Greek orthodox Churches–teach this Tradition without hesitation". SOURCE
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=69.msg158177#msg158177 date=1343430897] With all due respect, this is not the dogma of our Church.
Before, you stir an uproar, I want to ask this question.
Is Elijah in heaven, that is the kingdom of heaven?
The answer to this rethorical Q is, infact, posted above..I dont know if it is a trick question, but it is a big NO!! and you know that every well! It is ,of course ,the dogma of the church and I am giving you links written by those who teach us the faith.
.""..but the Holy Book of Revelation tells us that this will happen to the two witnesses (Enoch & Elijah), who, three and a half days after their death, will be resurrected and will ascend into heaven (Rev 11:11,12) -""
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=69.msg158173#msg158173 date=1343428287] St Mary is in paradise. No human has entered the Heaven include St. Mary herself.
[quote author=Ηεζεκιελ link=topic=69.msg158178#msg158178 date=1343431357] [quote author=imikhail link=topic=69.msg158177#msg158177 date=1343430897] With all due respect, this is not the dogma of our Church.
Before, you stir an uproar, I want to ask this question.
Is Elijah in heaven, that is the kingdom of heaven?
The answer to this rethorical Q is, infact, posted above..I dont know if it is a trick question, but it is a big NO!! and you know that every well! It is ,of course ,the dogma of the church and I am giving you links written by those who teach us the faith.
.""..but the Holy Book of Revelation tells us that this will happen to the two witnesses (Enoch & Elijah), who, three and a half days after their death, will be resurrected and will ascend into heaven (Rev 11:11,12) -""
No, this is not a trick question and I am glad that you answered a big NO.
But how can we interpret this verse from 2 Kings:
"So he said, You have asked a hard thing. Nevertheless, if you see me when I am taken from you, it shall be so for you; but if not, it shall not be so." 11 Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; andElijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven."
What I want to clarify, is that there is a difference between heaven as paradise, and heaven in the context of the kingdom of Heaven.
We call Heavenly Jerusalem Paradise in the St Basil Liturgy (the prayer before As it was)
So, when you read about St Mary's body taken to heaven, it refers to Paradise not the Kingdom of heaven
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=69.msg158184#msg158184 date=1343437745] So, when you read about St Mary's body taken to heaven, it refers to Paradise not the Kingdom of heaven
Ihab, if you read the book that qawe references above, you will see the stance of the Holy Fathers (with direct quotations from them) over the past millennia. They don't seem confused about the difference between Heaven and Paradise, and they quite clearly disagree with this statement :).
It seems to me that it is one thing to disagree with the tradition handed to us, but that it is another thing entirely to speak against it as if one knows better, and that those of us who hold fast to the traditions (such as the Ascension of the Theotokos) are all just confused.
If you object, please do reference the holy Fathers from centuries past who share this objection. Then we can actually work together to expose the right teachings of the Church :).
[quote author=gr link=topic=69.msg158188#msg158188 date=1343443260] [quote author=imikhail link=topic=69.msg158184#msg158184 date=1343437745] So, when you read about St Mary's body taken to heaven, it refers to Paradise not the Kingdom of heaven
Ihab, if you read the book that qawe references above, you will see the stance of the Holy Fathers (with direct quotations from them) over the past millennia. They don't seem confused about the difference between Heaven and Paradise, and they quite clearly disagree with this statement :).
It seems to me that it is one thing to disagree with the tradition handed to us, but that it is another thing entirely to speak against it as if one knows better, and that those of us who hold fast to the traditions (such as the Ascension of the Theotokos) are all just confused.
If you object, please do reference the holy Fathers from centuries past who share this objection. Then we can actually work together to expose the right teachings of the Church :).
Pray for me.
gr
I know that the link is there, but will you please put the quotes here from the fathers you are referring to?
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=69.msg158190#msg158190 date=1343443931] I know that the link is there, but will you please put the quotes here from the fathers you are referring to?
There is about 20 pages worth of quoted material ;D. Following the link makes a great deal more sense!
[quote author=gr link=topic=69.msg158191#msg158191 date=1343444545] [quote author=imikhail link=topic=69.msg158190#msg158190 date=1343443931] I know that the link is there, but will you please put the quotes here from the fathers you are referring to?
There is about 20 pages worth of quoted material ;D. Following the link makes a great deal more sense!
We must be looking at different things. In the link provided, there is a Mamre supposedly by Pope Tawodosius.
Is this what you are referring to by "the stance of the Holy Fathers (with direct quotations from them) over the past millennia."?
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=69.msg158192#msg158192 date=1343445413] [quote author=gr link=topic=69.msg158191#msg158191 date=1343444545] [quote author=imikhail link=topic=69.msg158190#msg158190 date=1343443931] I know that the link is there, but will you please put the quotes here from the fathers you are referring to?
There is about 20 pages worth of quoted material ;D. Following the link makes a great deal more sense!
We must be looking at different things. In the link provided, there is a Mamre supposedly by Pope Tawodosius.
Is this what you are referring to by "the stance of the Holy Fathers (with direct quotations from them) over the past millennia."?
The link contains the account of St. Theodosius as well as numerous other patristic quotations.
^This seems like a great article. How did Met. Bishoy react to this document? Fr. Athanasius' view is clearly upheld in the Patristic tradition. I am shocked H.E. would say that the Theotokos' body was not assumed up into heaven.
[quote author=gr link=topic=69.msg158193#msg158193 date=1343445899] [quote author=imikhail link=topic=69.msg158192#msg158192 date=1343445413] [quote author=gr link=topic=69.msg158191#msg158191 date=1343444545] [quote author=imikhail link=topic=69.msg158190#msg158190 date=1343443931] I know that the link is there, but will you please put the quotes here from the fathers you are referring to?
There is about 20 pages worth of quoted material ;D. Following the link makes a great deal more sense!
We must be looking at different things. In the link provided, there is a Mamre supposedly by Pope Tawodosius.
Is this what you are referring to by "the stance of the Holy Fathers (with direct quotations from them) over the past millennia."?
The link contains the account of St. Theodosius as well as numerous other patristic quotations.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=69.msg158199#msg158199 date=1343451268] I read the book and still cannot find any quotation by the holy Fathers except for that supposedly mamre by pope Tawodosious.
Where is the established tradition that says that the Tawodokos entered the Kingdom?
Tradition is established through various sources not just one mamre.
So, Would someone can help me with those quotes?
With all due respect, if you can't see the plethora of quotations on the link provided, I'm not quite sure copying and pasting would help :). It is a tradition that is established in all Orthodox churches (both Oriental and Eastern), as well as the Catholic church.
I also find it a bit disconcerting that you immediately attempt to cast doubt on Pope Theodosius' writing by using the terms "allegedly" and "supposedly" without providing a basis. If you do a bit of digging (in addition to re-reading the quotes referenced in the book above), you will find many more versions of the tradition from varying sources.
The tradition of the fathers have been cited, so I'm content. I respectfully withdraw.
No, this is not a trick question and I am glad that you answered a big NO.
But how can we interpret this verse from 2 Kings:
"So he said, You have asked a hard thing. Nevertheless, if you see me when I am taken from you, it shall be so for you; but if not, it shall not be so." 11 Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; andElijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven."
What I want to clarify, is that there is a difference between heaven as paradise, and heaven in the context of the kingdom of Heaven.
We call Heavenly Jerusalem Paradise in the St Basil Liturgy (the prayer before As it was)
So, when you read about St Mary's body taken to heaven, it refers to Paradise not the Kingdom of heaven
Dear Imikahil,
Thank you for the clarification. i value your contributions.I do not have difficulty understanding Elijah's whereabouts, but I am still confused with your position regarding the Virgin Mary and here is why:
For example, when it says the Queen sat at the right hand of the bridegroom, is that in paradise or in heaven? or is it something that is going to happen after the judgement? In other words, right now, where is the Queen sitting??
b) Fr Athansius is a theologian and represents the COC and can not afford to teach us incorrect dogma. You agree? Now, he is saying " the Virgin’s soul and body were united and that she was taken alive to heaven"..There is no ambiguity here. He is talking about the unity of body ,soul and HEAVEN (not the waiting place). Is he wrong? If he is wrong, why hasnt the church protested and taken the book off circulation?
Comments
It was very sad reading through this thread as a Catholic. As Catholics we can stand for what we believe in and we know what we believe in, non the less we are taught to Love Coptics and Orthodox Christians as brothers, since our similarities are what bind us together, and this most of us Catholics practice. We advice Catholics to attend the Orthodox or Coptic Church when they dont find any Catholic Church near them, we are taught that the you are supposed to be more friendlier and familiar to us than other Churches, but today i have seen that you do not share the same mind to us as we do to you, we aproach you with love but you aproach us with a differences and hate.
I had the wrong idea about Coptics and Orthodox being our brothers in Christ n this is because i was mislead and taught to Love Coptics and Orthox alike as brothers in Christ.
We do not hate Catholics. This thread is about the dogmatic differences between the two Churches.
It would not be wise of you to base your judgement about communities on what you read on internet forums. They very rarely indeed present an authentic view of any group.
I am the co-Secretary of the Catholic-Oriental Orthodox Regional Forum in the UK, and meet regularly with Catholic hierarchs, and the hierarchs of our own Orthodox communities, to discover in what ways we can work together, and what things cause us to be separated. I enjoy this forum very much indeed. The differences don't go away, but being able to address them, and our similarities, at the highest level and with great honesty and frankness, is very much a blessing.
Do not believe that anything you read here is representative of anything other than particular people's views, just as I do not believe everything I read on other forums. It is in personal relationships where it is possible to be entirely honest with love that real understanding is forged, both of differences and similarities.
It was very sad reading through this thread as a Catholic. As Catholics we can stand for what we believe in and we know what we believe in, non the less we are taught to Love Coptics and Orthodox Christians as brothers, since our similarities are what bind us together, and this most of us Catholics practice. We advice Catholics to attend the Orthodox or Coptic Church when they dont find any Catholic Church near them, we are taught that the you are supposed to be more friendlier and familiar to us than other Churches, but today i have seen that you do not share the same mind to us as we do to you, we aproach you with love but you aproach us with a differences and hate.
I had the wrong idea about Coptics and Orthodox being our brothers in Christ n this is because i was mislead and taught to Love Coptics and Orthox alike as brothers in Christ.
Copts ARE Orthodox. To distinguish between Copts and Orthodox Christians is a false dichotomy. The Copts, like all Miaphysite Orthodox, maintain the Orthodox faith of the three ecumenical councils of Nicea, Constantinople, and Ephesus before the imperial Church brought disunity to the universal Church by convening a Nestorian-influenced council (Chalcedon). In any case, the posts you have read do not necessarily reflect the official view of our Clergy and Hierarchy.
Copts ARE Orthodox. To distinguish between Copts and Orthodox Christians is a false dichotomy. The Copts, like all Miaphysite Orthodox, maintain the Orthodox faith of the three ecumenical councils of Nicea, Constantinople, and Ephesus before the imperial Church brought disunity to the universal Church by convening a Nestorian-influenced council (Chalcedon). In any case, the posts you have read do not necessarily reflect the official view of our Clergy and Hierarchy.
I don't think the Coptic Catholics would agree with this sentiment... I don't think the Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria has a monopoly on the ethnic term "Copt". It's true that the term Copt is normally only used to describe a Christian of Egyptian descent, and most commonly an Orthodox Christian since that is the largest such group. But Coptic just means "Egyptian". The Greek Orthodox don't go around saying "Greeks ARE Orthodox. To distinguish between Greeks and Orthodox Christians is a false dichotomy". Same thing here. Not all Copts go to Church or practice their religion, and not all Copts are Orthodox, some are Protestant, and some are Catholic.
Orthodoxy teaches that, after the soul leaves the body, it journeys to the abode of the dead (Hades). There are exceptions, such as the Theotokos, who was borne by the angels directly into heaven. As for the rest, we must remain in this condition of waiting. Because some have a prevision of the glory to come and others foretaste their suffering, the state of waiting is called "Particular Judgment."
I have to disagree with this. The Oriental Orthodox Faith holds that the souls of the faithful journey into Paradise to await the final resurrection, in accordance with our Lord, Jesus' words to the theif on the cross, "Today you will be with Me in Paradise" [NOT HADES].
Hades is the waiting place of the damned, not the waiting place of the faithful in Christ.
Christ entered Hades when He died on the cross and overcame it and released its captives from it into Paradise where they now dwell consciously with the saints.
St Mary is in paradise. No human has entered the Heaven include St. Mary herself.
Fr Tadros writes in his book:
"Her Assumption---This feast commemorates the entrance of St. Mary’s body into heaven, as she preceded us and sat at the right hand of her Bridegroom and Son. It bears a powerful witness to the eschatological truth of our faith, i.e. “the world to come”.
From Armenian Liturgical Hymns on the assumption
"Today the celestial spirits bring to heaven the Abode of the Holy Spirit, making her enter into the heavenly Jerusalem, to the immaculate Tabernacle, to us inaccessible, close to the Holy Trinity.
Today the heavenly spirits have carried to heaven the holy body of the Virgin Theotokos, placing it among
the angels to share in the unspeakable delights…
Having lived in this body all-holy life, you are brought by the divine will to the Kingdom of your Son, our
God; pray for us . . ."
Fr. Athanasius Iskander comments saying:
"‘Some people ( like imikhail, for example ) are scandalized by the notion that the Virgin’s soul and body were united and that she was taken alive to heaven, but the Holy Book of Revelation tells us that this will happen to the two witnesses (Enoch & Elijah), who, three and a half days after their death, will be resurrected and will ascend into heaven (Rev 11:11,12) - Both the Roman Catholic and Greek orthodox Churches–teach this Tradition without hesitation". SOURCE
Before you stir an uproar, I want to ask this question.
Is Elijah in heaven, that is the kingdom of heaven?
With all due respect, this is not the dogma of our Church.
Before, you stir an uproar, I want to ask this question.
Is Elijah in heaven, that is the kingdom of heaven?
The answer to this rethorical Q is, infact, posted above..I dont know if it is a trick question, but it is a big NO!! and you know that every well! It is ,of course ,the dogma of the church and I am giving you links written by those who teach us the faith.
.""..but the Holy Book of Revelation tells us that this will happen to the two witnesses (Enoch & Elijah), who, three and a half days after their death, will be resurrected and will ascend into heaven (Rev 11:11,12) -""
St Mary is in paradise. No human has entered the Heaven include St. Mary herself.
So the Synaxarium is wrong (again)?
http://www.copticchurch.net/synaxarium/5_21.html#1
It clearly states that the Theotokos was ascended to heaven.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=69.msg158177#msg158177 date=1343430897]
With all due respect, this is not the dogma of our Church.
Before, you stir an uproar, I want to ask this question.
Is Elijah in heaven, that is the kingdom of heaven?
The answer to this rethorical Q is, infact, posted above..I dont know if it is a trick question, but it is a big NO!! and you know that every well! It is ,of course ,the dogma of the church and I am giving you links written by those who teach us the faith.
.""..but the Holy Book of Revelation tells us that this will happen to the two witnesses (Enoch & Elijah), who, three and a half days after their death, will be resurrected and will ascend into heaven (Rev 11:11,12) -""
No, this is not a trick question and I am glad that you answered a big NO.
But how can we interpret this verse from 2 Kings:
"So he said, You have asked a hard thing. Nevertheless, if you see me when I am taken from you, it shall be so for you; but if not, it shall not be so." 11 Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven."
What I want to clarify, is that there is a difference between heaven as paradise, and heaven in the context of the kingdom of Heaven.
We call Heavenly Jerusalem Paradise in the St Basil Liturgy (the prayer before As it was)
So, when you read about St Mary's body taken to heaven, it refers to Paradise not the Kingdom of heaven
So, when you read about St Mary's body taken to heaven, it refers to Paradise not the Kingdom of heaven
Ihab, if you read the book that qawe references above, you will see the stance of the Holy Fathers (with direct quotations from them) over the past millennia. They don't seem confused about the difference between Heaven and Paradise, and they quite clearly disagree with this statement :).
It seems to me that it is one thing to disagree with the tradition handed to us, but that it is another thing entirely to speak against it as if one knows better, and that those of us who hold fast to the traditions (such as the Ascension of the Theotokos) are all just confused.
If you object, please do reference the holy Fathers from centuries past who share this objection. Then we can actually work together to expose the right teachings of the Church :).
Pray for me.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=69.msg158184#msg158184 date=1343437745]
So, when you read about St Mary's body taken to heaven, it refers to Paradise not the Kingdom of heaven
Ihab, if you read the book that qawe references above, you will see the stance of the Holy Fathers (with direct quotations from them) over the past millennia. They don't seem confused about the difference between Heaven and Paradise, and they quite clearly disagree with this statement :).
It seems to me that it is one thing to disagree with the tradition handed to us, but that it is another thing entirely to speak against it as if one knows better, and that those of us who hold fast to the traditions (such as the Ascension of the Theotokos) are all just confused.
If you object, please do reference the holy Fathers from centuries past who share this objection. Then we can actually work together to expose the right teachings of the Church :).
Pray for me.
gr
I know that the link is there, but will you please put the quotes here from the fathers you are referring to?
I know that the link is there, but will you please put the quotes here from the fathers you are referring to?
There is about 20 pages worth of quoted material ;D. Following the link makes a great deal more sense!
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=69.msg158190#msg158190 date=1343443931]
I know that the link is there, but will you please put the quotes here from the fathers you are referring to?
There is about 20 pages worth of quoted material ;D. Following the link makes a great deal more sense!
We must be looking at different things. In the link provided, there is a Mamre supposedly by Pope Tawodosius.
Is this what you are referring to by "the stance of the Holy Fathers (with direct quotations from them) over the past millennia."?
[quote author=gr link=topic=69.msg158191#msg158191 date=1343444545]
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=69.msg158190#msg158190 date=1343443931]
I know that the link is there, but will you please put the quotes here from the fathers you are referring to?
There is about 20 pages worth of quoted material ;D. Following the link makes a great deal more sense!
We must be looking at different things. In the link provided, there is a Mamre supposedly by Pope Tawodosius.
Is this what you are referring to by "the stance of the Holy Fathers (with direct quotations from them) over the past millennia."?
The link contains the account of St. Theodosius as well as numerous other patristic quotations.
http://www.stmaryscopticorthodox.ca/index.php/english/publications/sermon/defending-the-holy-virgin-mary
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=69.msg158192#msg158192 date=1343445413]
[quote author=gr link=topic=69.msg158191#msg158191 date=1343444545]
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=69.msg158190#msg158190 date=1343443931]
I know that the link is there, but will you please put the quotes here from the fathers you are referring to?
There is about 20 pages worth of quoted material ;D. Following the link makes a great deal more sense!
We must be looking at different things. In the link provided, there is a Mamre supposedly by Pope Tawodosius.
Is this what you are referring to by "the stance of the Holy Fathers (with direct quotations from them) over the past millennia."?
The link contains the account of St. Theodosius as well as numerous other patristic quotations.
http://www.stmaryscopticorthodox.ca/index.php/english/publications/sermon/defending-the-holy-virgin-mary
I read the book and still cannot find any quotation by the holy Fathers except for that supposedly mamre by pope Tawodosious.
Where is the established tradition that says that the Tawodokos entered the Kingdom?
Tradition is established through various sources not just one mamre.
So, wuld someone help me with those quotes?
Our Church believes that St. Mary's body is being kept in paradise not in the Kingdom of Heaven.
I read the book and still cannot find any quotation by the holy Fathers except for that supposedly mamre by pope Tawodosious.
Where is the established tradition that says that the Tawodokos entered the Kingdom?
Tradition is established through various sources not just one mamre.
So, Would someone can help me with those quotes?
With all due respect, if you can't see the plethora of quotations on the link provided, I'm not quite sure copying and pasting would help :). It is a tradition that is established in all Orthodox churches (both Oriental and Eastern), as well as the Catholic church.
I also find it a bit disconcerting that you immediately attempt to cast doubt on Pope Theodosius' writing by using the terms "allegedly" and "supposedly" without providing a basis. If you do a bit of digging (in addition to re-reading the quotes referenced in the book above), you will find many more versions of the tradition from varying sources.
The tradition of the fathers have been cited, so I'm content. I respectfully withdraw.
Pray for me.
It is not your job to determine what our Church believes, it is the Holy Synod's.
They have not made a statement on this as yet.
Imikhail
It is not your job to determine what our Church believes, it is the Holy Synod's.
They have not made a statement on this as yet.
With all due respect, the teaching of the church is that no one has entered the Kingdom of Heaven. This will not happen till the second coming.
I have never heard of this new teaching within our Church that the holy Virgin has already entered the kingdom of heaven.
This teaching is against the Bible and goes against the heart of the salvation plan.
We cannot build a dogma on a doubtful sermon lacking authenticity.
It is not a sermon, but a book.
I meant the sermon or the Mamre that has Pope Tawodosius on it.
No, this is not a trick question and I am glad that you answered a big NO.
But how can we interpret this verse from 2 Kings:
"So he said, You have asked a hard thing. Nevertheless, if you see me when I am taken from you, it shall be so for you; but if not, it shall not be so." 11 Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven."
What I want to clarify, is that there is a difference between heaven as paradise, and heaven in the context of the kingdom of Heaven.
We call Heavenly Jerusalem Paradise in the St Basil Liturgy (the prayer before As it was)
So, when you read about St Mary's body taken to heaven, it refers to Paradise not the Kingdom of heaven
Dear Imikahil,
Thank you for the clarification. i value your contributions.I do not have difficulty understanding Elijah's whereabouts, but I am still confused with your position regarding the Virgin Mary and here is why:
For example, when it says the Queen sat at the right hand of the bridegroom, is that in paradise or in heaven? or is it something that is going to happen after the judgement? In other words, right now, where is the Queen sitting??
b) Fr Athansius is a theologian and represents the COC and can not afford to teach us incorrect dogma. You agree? Now, he is saying " the Virgin’s soul and body were united and that she was taken alive to heaven"..There is no ambiguity here. He is talking about the unity of body ,soul and HEAVEN (not the waiting place). Is he wrong? If he is wrong, why hasnt the church protested and taken the book off circulation?
Looks like a glorified body to me!
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