i don't see your point. YES ST. Mary is in fact the highest saint and human person that came from on earth. also she is my personal intercesser. She is The Second Heaven, yes, does that make ALL women second heavens for Christ. the idea of including St. Mary's blessedness in this post does not support anything that have to do with deaconesses. may be women in general but it doesn't prove anything in the different ranking. basicly St. Mary just BLESSES first mankind in general, and than women. that's of course is differnt than what was she or what else she did for our salvation.
Likewise, not ALL men, who have a rank in Church are righteous like the Jesus' disciples were. I was talking about looking down on women mainly. God exalted a woman above all humankind.
Some may say that Jesus came in the form of a male, so males are higher. Although this is probably not the only reason why Jesus came as a male, it is still valid: If He had come as a female, do you think that anyone of that time period would have listened to Him?
am sorry, but people at that time didn't listen to Him anyway even with great uncountable mircles he did.
God's Kid, if you have any more quesions, plese pm me.
Yes, many people at that time DID listen to Him. How do you think the Christians, or followers of Christ came about? If He had come in the form of a woman at that time, He have just been considered deranged and been completely ignored.
[quote author=minagir link=board=13;threadid=3161;start=30#msg54037 date=1146798306] Gods kid, in our cur COC we have ranks for everything. in clergy we have ranking. you have deacons, priests, Bishops in ranking from low to high. now with deacons, there is 5 or u can say 6 ranks. every one is HIGHER than the other one. deaconesses when they are ordainded, there is NO laying of hands. that's one thing. and also if you don't kno, a deacon is in fact higher in ranking than the other believers. and also about deaconesses, please read ALL the posts before about the diffrences between both deaconesses and deaocn.
I agree with filobateer's post from May 4th 11:28.
[quote author=cop link=topic=3161.msg47183#msg47183 date=1139175094] ahah yes i live in california and the deaconess trend is catching on it was causing porblems in the begining but now i guess its ok
There are deaconesses in Cali? as in serving in the alter and being in the chorus with the men deacons or are they doing something else like helping people or doing stuff in the church like Sunday school etc...
deacons (whether fully ordained deacons or simply cantors and readers) and deaconesses are part of the church. Both have the same goal spiritually but their service is a bit different. Definitely, the deacon's role is more liturgical than the deaconesses role but that doesn't mean the deacon's role is purely liturgical.
Rather the fully ordained deacon is also meant to assist the priests during the liturgy, while both the ordained deacons and the cantors/readers etc are also called to serve in whatever capacity he is called to, whether it be amongst the youth or with the elderly or in admin purposes. In this regard, both the deacons and deaconesses have similar roles, which is basically pastoral work.
Even though most 'deacons' are not truly 'full' deacons, those who are cantors or readers or sub deacons still need to serve the church in whatever way is needed. Both deacons and deaconesses are needed because the church has both men and women, boys and girls who also can relate more to men or more to women.
Finally, going into the altar area has nothing to do with simply 'being a man' or not. Even a male who has not been blessed/tonsured to serve at the altar is by no means given MORE allowance than a woman to enter the altar. It really upsets me when I see random men whom I know were never tonsured for altar service enter the altar to pray when the whole church is empty..I understand the desire for a personal time with God without others around but more respect for the altar is also necessary..and it starts with the clergy and the deacons (or 'deacons' in most cases).
"Oh ok I understand. So they just have different rolls then the deacons. Got it but what’s different about deaconesses and servants that are women."
The deaconesses are completely dedicated to serving God in their life. In fact, they are celibate which means they are unmarried like nuns (I think in most if not all cases) and they wear a special grey habit with a veil to distinguish their service. The lady servants in church can also get married, have families and children, careers etc.
[quote author=copticross link=topic=3161.msg47130#msg47130 date=1139119282] i know this is a wierd question, but why can only males be deacons? ??? the trend has changed these days mainly if you look in california the new trends of females becoming deacons has arrised
[quote author=Graioner link=topic=3161.msg160025#msg160025 date=1348044338] YES GIRLS CAN SURELY BE DEACONS AS THE TREND OF GIRLS BECOMING DEACONS IS GROWING POPULAR THESE DAYS AS IN CALIFORNIA IT IS VERY POPULAR TREND
This is an extremely ignorant comment. You should really know the reality of what you speak before making a public accusation which is patently false and inflammatory.
I second Abouna's comment. Do your research, there is a vast difference between your conception of deaconess (which is presumably what you are speaking of) and 'girls being deacons'.
HG Anba Serapion is a very well learned and wise bishop and of all the diocese to accuse of having 'girls become deacons', you picked a bad suspect.
[quote author=Timothym link=topic=3161.msg155833#msg155833 date=1337688162] The deaconesses are completely dedicated to serving God in their life. In fact, they are celibate which means they are unmarried like nuns (I think in most if not all cases) and they wear a special grey habit with a veil to distinguish their service. The lady servants in church can also get married, have families and children, careers etc.
According to Timothym's reply and description of a deaconess, i found a picture of some deaconesses with HG Bishop Seraphim. I've seen them all the time, thinking they were nuns! These are them, right? I found out that the oldest looking deaconess in the photo was the first deaconess ordained by The Thrice Blessed H.H. Pope Shenouda III. It's actually really cool to see this :) http://britishorthodox.org/tag/coptic-orthodox/
Guys, God set aside specific jobs for everyone. Men have certain roles in the Church just as women do. One thing that deaconesses do is that they help Abouna baptize the elderly, especially women.
[quote author=JG link=topic=3161.msg47380#msg47380 date=1139338506] Look guys Can I please get this straight-
Are deaconesses actually recognized by the Coptic Orthodox Church? I have read in the one of St. Paul's epistles that this woman was a deaconess. But I can't remember her name.
You're thinking of Phoebe in Romans 16:1. She was called διάκονον ("deacon" in the NIV version). Most Bible translations, including the NKJV we are accustomed to, translate διάκονον as "servant". While I believe the word should be deacon, one must be sure that the ecclesiastical clerical order we associate with the title "deacon" did not exist in St Paul's time. So when we say deacon in the Bible, it's not consecrated deacon, singer, or any other order. It was meant to mean a consecrated servant (one who gave up his/her job and livelihood to serve the Church and Christ).
Deaconesses are recognized in the Coptic Church, but not as a clerical rank. The office of the deaconess is a non-clerical rank with different duties than their male counterpart.
That's saddening, honestly. I really don't think the verse about women "keeping silent in the chruches" was ever meant to be taken as far as we have. 90% of the time when I search for a melody from the church to listen to, the voices are 100% male. If you listen in church, the male voice VERY highly overpowers the female voice. I'll be honest, I'm not as learned in the Alhan as I'd like to be, but whenever I know a hymn, I will sing as loud as I can in hopes to encourage a greater female voice. This issue hit me the hardest 6 years ago, at my Geddo's funeral. Now my Geddo had 2 daughters and no sons. For his funeral, my mom had written a eulogy that she wanted to give. Would you believe that she was forbidden from speaking at her own father's funeral...because she is a woman. I really don't think it was meant to be taken to the point where women are not heard at all, and I strongly do not believe that God does not want to hear a woman's voice, which honestly and unfortunately sometimes the Church does give the impression that that is the case. :(
i hope your mother found another time to give the eulogy about her father, may God comfort all of you when you miss him.
i think the orthodox church has good reasons for having the services as they are, and from what i can see here in the uk, women have a lot of influence in running the church. you don't always see women so prominently during the liturgy, but their prayers and service are vital for the church.
if you look at some of the protestant churches, especially in wealthy countries, there is a massive female influence, lots of songs about 'sweet Jesus' and plenty of men leaving the church to become atheists!
so we need to keep a balance, and i don't think the orthodox church (especially the coptic church) is doing badly.
as a fellow Christian orthodox woman, i can see plenty of chances for women to serve God in the church, and i pray that you will also be able to serve in the place where God has placed you.
But that's one of the problems that I see. It's like on one hand, the church says that women should not have a prominent role in the liturgy. On another hand I've been told countless times that the liturgy is supposed to be symbolic of what it is like in Heaven. By simultaneously teaching these two things it is as if to say that the church does not believe that women have prominent roles (as compared to men) in heaven. But the Holy Bible contradicting the verse that says, "For there is neither Jew nor Greek *nor male nor female* nor slave nor free...". In the Kingdom of Heaven men and women are equal. If the liturgy is supposed to represent Heaven, should women not have a more prominent role? I'm not asking to get to the level of priest or bishop, but I don't think it would be a problem to start ordaining "subdeaconesses" who could read and chant alongside the suubdeacons. And allowing deaconeses to take on roles more similar to deacons. I don't believe that God would have a problem with a woman reading from His word out loud. I honestly don't.
I can't say I believe our church has a good reason for everything. A reason? Yes. A good one? Not necessarily. There is not a single church (from any denomination of Christianity) in this earth today that is perfect. We each have our own flaws, and we can never grow in the Lord if we do not seek His guidance in recognizing and correcting the flaws that we do have.
Ok. I really didn't wanna reply to this post but maybe it's time to do so.
So one issue that i see in the way we are looking at this is because we are just comparing women and men and their roles in church. But this is not the case when you are talking about deacons. men and women are equal in the eyes of God, in rank and status--their duties in church however, and before God, are different. I will not get into details on that because it's a major topic. Realize that in church, in the liturgy, even when we placed seats (pews) to keep order, we have placed men next to women to show that they are equal in front of God.
The liturgy is served by the priests. It's headed by the priest. Actually, the priest cannot do a liturgy without a deacon and a congregation member (male or female), and neither can do a liturgy without a priest. Priesthood is one of the seven sacraments of the Church and it's given to specific men of God. God created man to inherit the glories of His kingdom and made him the center of His care. He chose some men to pass on commands and mysteries. Through the entire old testament, God gave priesthood to specific people among his chosen people (Israel), as well as in the New testament (the 12 disciples, the new Israel). So Priesthood was set to SOME men, not all men and not women.
Now in the Coptic Church, the deacons ranks are considered part of priesthood, even though the full consecration is only done when a full Edyakon is ordained. So all those ranks are also just for males.
There are also ranks for deaconess and subdeaconesses (here is a good source about that: http://lacopts.org/story/the-role-of-women-in-the-church-part-iii/). They have their own duties and deacons have theirs. They are not the same, but all is done to perfect the church.
@Lovejoypeace_ You're saying that the Church doesn't have a good reason for this (whatever we're talking about) but i have to respond and say that there isn't a good reason to change to whatever you are suggesting, which is to "create" or "change" ranks "to take on roles more similar to deacons." This sounds like another feminist response to anything that is done these days: "why can't women do the same things as men". The main reason is because the Church simply doesn't work that way. I'll say it again, each person in the Church have their own duty and that's how the Church lives on and perfected.
The pews are next to each other, yes. But on the other hand, men are allowed near a consecrated alter... women are not. Adult men are given priority over child girls when taking communion. (In a lot of places). It is very possible to perform a full liturgy with no women present. It is impossible for a priest to perform a liturgy with no other man present. I'm going to urge you to recall that the first person called to evangelism after the Resurrection was a woman... and she was called to evangelize to men. "Go and tell my disciples." So if a woman was the first to be called by God to proclaim the Resurrection, how can we say that God wants the voice of women to be totally suppressed or drowned out in the Liturgy? I don't understand how a female wanting the opportunity to read or sing in a liturgy is such an enormous issue. Or why is it such an issue to expect that you will be able to speak at your father's funeral without having to have your nephew do it in your place...simply because you are female. The church needs to abandon the old testament (as in pre-new covenant) traditions regarding women approaching the Bosom of the Father, the Holy of Holies. We need to remember that while we were tainted by the sin of Adam, we are also cleansed in the Precious Blood of our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ. I urge you to remember that whoever society labeled "unclean" whether scriptural or not, Our Lord made it a point to embrace them, touch them, and invite them into His kingdom. It's OK to have different roles, but when those roles allow for one gender to be completely left out of the Liturgy, and everything still be able to run normally, that's where the problem lies. There is a good reason to allow women to play a larger role in the liturgy. In addition to Jesus Christ first calling a woman to evangelism, it was actually His female followers who were most loyal to Him. 10 of His 11 remaining chosen disciples fled and did not go with him to the cross. While the 10 fled, St. John the Beloved and the women stayed with Him until His burial. It's not a whiny feminist "I want to be a man" situation. It's a, "I would like to be able contribute to the Liturgy and serve in the church the way that the women in the Gospels were allowed to serve our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."
--The pews are next to each other, yes. But on the other hand, men are allowed near a consecrated alter... women are not.
No. That's an incorrect statement. NO ONE is to enter the altar other then those who may serve in the altar. That's not all men, but only certain ones that were called to serve and become part of priesthood. Now we are coming back to simply the issue of women in priesthood
--Adult men are given priority over child girls when taking communion. (In a lot of places). It is very possible to perform a full liturgy with no women present. It is impossible for a priest to perform a liturgy with no other man present.
That also an incorrect statement. Read again what i said, you need a priest, a deacon and a congregation member. That congregation member can be a man or a women--there is no difference there. You should visit a convent and retreat there for sometime and you'll see that liturgies there are done regularly with a priest, a deacon, and the nuns.
--I'm going to urge you to recall that the first person called to evangelism after the Resurrection was a woman... and she was called to evangelize to men. "Go and tell my disciples." So if a woman was the first to be called by God to proclaim the Resurrection, how can we say that God wants the voice of women to be totally suppressed or drowned out in the Liturgy?
To tell you the truth, that's a vain example. You should of mentioned the human that gave birth to God incarnate--The Virgin Mary--she was a women, and she is what we call "the pride of the human race." Is there a greater honor than this?! You could of mentioned St Demiana and her 40 virgin that were martyred for the faith. In my humble opinion dying on the hope of the Resurrection of Christ is "greater" then preaching the Resurrection. This is just to tell you that it's not about which gender is "greater".....
--I don't understand how a female wanting the opportunity to read or sing in a liturgy is such an enormous issue.
Because in our Church, this specific duty is set apart for those of the ranks of deacons. It's that simple.
--Or why is it such an issue to expect that you will be able to speak at your father's funeral without having to have your nephew do it in your place...simply because you are female.
Actually, i can't give a very good reason for that. That's probably based on the church that the funeral was prayed in and the country. Culture plays a part here.
Comments
feeh eh ya ged3an.... ana kol ely yekalemny yeftekerny wad walah eh?! :-\ deh el 7alah kidah edahwaret khales!!! ::)
3al 3emom.... wad, wad.... mosh moshkelah. 3alah ra2y el masal.... 'samak, laban, tamr hendy!!' ;D ;D ;D
She is The Second Heaven, yes, does that make ALL women second heavens for Christ.
the idea of including St. Mary's blessedness in this post does not support anything that have to do with deaconesses. may be women in general but it doesn't prove anything in the different ranking. basicly St. Mary just BLESSES first mankind in general, and than women. that's of course is differnt than what was she or what else she did for our salvation. Likewise, not ALL men, who have a rank in Church are righteous like the Jesus' disciples were. I was talking about looking down on women mainly. God exalted a woman above all humankind.
God's Kid, if you have any more quesions, plese pm me. Yes, many people at that time DID listen to Him. How do you think the Christians, or followers of Christ came about? If He had come in the form of a woman at that time, He have just been considered deranged and been completely ignored.
What's "pm"-ing , as you suggested?
Gods kid,
in our cur COC we have ranks for everything. in clergy we have ranking. you have deacons, priests, Bishops in ranking from low to high. now with deacons, there is 5 or u can say 6 ranks. every one is HIGHER than the other one. deaconesses when they are ordainded, there is NO laying of hands. that's one thing. and also if you don't kno, a deacon is in fact higher in ranking than the other believers. and also about deaconesses, please read ALL the posts before about the diffrences between both deaconesses and deaocn.
I agree with filobateer's post from May 4th 11:28.
ahah yes i live in california and the deaconess trend is catching on it was causing porblems in the begining but now i guess its ok
There are deaconesses in Cali? as in serving in the alter and being in the chorus with the men deacons or are they doing something else like helping people or doing stuff in the church like Sunday school etc...
Rather the fully ordained deacon is also meant to assist the priests during the liturgy, while both the ordained deacons and the cantors/readers etc are also called to serve in whatever capacity he is called to, whether it be amongst the youth or with the elderly or in admin purposes. In this regard, both the deacons and deaconesses have similar roles, which is basically pastoral work.
Even though most 'deacons' are not truly 'full' deacons, those who are cantors or readers or sub deacons still need to serve the church in whatever way is needed. Both deacons and deaconesses are needed because the church has both men and women, boys and girls who also can relate more to men or more to women.
Finally, going into the altar area has nothing to do with simply 'being a man' or not. Even a male who has not been blessed/tonsured to serve at the altar is by no means given MORE allowance than a woman to enter the altar. It really upsets me when I see random men whom I know were never tonsured for altar service enter the altar to pray when the whole church is empty..I understand the desire for a personal time with God without others around but more respect for the altar is also necessary..and it starts with the clergy and the deacons (or 'deacons' in most cases).
The deaconesses are completely dedicated to serving God in their life. In fact, they are celibate which means they are unmarried like nuns (I think in most if not all cases) and they wear a special grey habit with a veil to distinguish their service. The lady servants in church can also get married, have families and children, careers etc.
i know this is a wierd question, but why can only males be deacons? ???
the trend has changed these days mainly if you look in california the new trends of females becoming deacons has arrised
YES GIRLS CAN SURELY BE DEACONS AS THE TREND OF GIRLS BECOMING DEACONS IS GROWING POPULAR THESE DAYS AS IN CALIFORNIA IT IS VERY POPULAR TREND
This is an extremely ignorant comment. You should really know the reality of what you speak before making a public accusation which is patently false and inflammatory.
God bless you.
Fr. Kyrillos
HG Anba Serapion is a very well learned and wise bishop and of all the diocese to accuse of having 'girls become deacons', you picked a bad suspect.
The deaconesses are completely dedicated to serving God in their life. In fact, they are celibate which means they are unmarried like nuns (I think in most if not all cases) and they wear a special grey habit with a veil to distinguish their service. The lady servants in church can also get married, have families and children, careers etc.
According to Timothym's reply and description of a deaconess, i found a picture of some deaconesses with HG Bishop Seraphim. I've seen them all the time, thinking they were nuns! These are them, right? I found out that the oldest looking deaconess in the photo was the first deaconess ordained by The Thrice Blessed H.H. Pope Shenouda III. It's actually really cool to see this :)
http://britishorthodox.org/tag/coptic-orthodox/
Look guys Can I please get this straight-
Are deaconesses actually recognized by the Coptic Orthodox Church? I have read in the one of St. Paul's epistles that this woman was a deaconess. But I can't remember her name.
You're thinking of Phoebe in Romans 16:1. She was called διάκονον ("deacon" in the NIV version). Most Bible translations, including the NKJV we are accustomed to, translate διάκονον as "servant". While I believe the word should be deacon, one must be sure that the ecclesiastical clerical order we associate with the title "deacon" did not exist in St Paul's time. So when we say deacon in the Bible, it's not consecrated deacon, singer, or any other order. It was meant to mean a consecrated servant (one who gave up his/her job and livelihood to serve the Church and Christ).
Deaconesses are recognized in the Coptic Church, but not as a clerical rank. The office of the deaconess is a non-clerical rank with different duties than their male counterpart.
;)
I can't say I believe our church has a good reason for everything. A reason? Yes. A good one? Not necessarily. There is not a single church (from any denomination of Christianity) in this earth today that is perfect. We each have our own flaws, and we can never grow in the Lord if we do not seek His guidance in recognizing and correcting the flaws that we do have.
Adult men are given priority over child girls when taking communion. (In a lot of places). It is very possible to perform a full liturgy with no women present. It is impossible for a priest to perform a liturgy with no other man present. I'm going to urge you to recall that the first person called to evangelism after the Resurrection was a woman... and she was called to evangelize to men. "Go and tell my disciples." So if a woman was the first to be called by God to proclaim the Resurrection, how can we say that God wants the voice of women to be totally suppressed or drowned out in the Liturgy? I don't understand how a female wanting the opportunity to read or sing in a liturgy is such an enormous issue. Or why is it such an issue to expect that you will be able to speak at your father's funeral without having to have your nephew do it in your place...simply because you are female. The church needs to abandon the old testament (as in pre-new covenant) traditions regarding women approaching the Bosom of the Father, the Holy of Holies. We need to remember that while we were tainted by the sin of Adam, we are also cleansed in the Precious Blood of our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ. I urge you to remember that whoever society labeled "unclean" whether scriptural or not, Our Lord made it a point to embrace them, touch them, and invite them into His kingdom. It's OK to have different roles, but when those roles allow for one gender to be completely left out of the Liturgy, and everything still be able to run normally, that's where the problem lies. There is a good reason to allow women to play a larger role in the liturgy. In addition to Jesus Christ first calling a woman to evangelism, it was actually His female followers who were most loyal to Him. 10 of His 11 remaining chosen disciples fled and did not go with him to the cross. While the 10 fled, St. John the Beloved and the women stayed with Him until His burial. It's not a whiny feminist "I want to be a man" situation. It's a, "I would like to be able contribute to the Liturgy and serve in the church the way that the women in the Gospels were allowed to serve our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."
--Adult men are given priority over child girls when taking communion. (In a lot of places). It is very possible to perform a full liturgy with no women present. It is impossible for a priest to perform a liturgy with no other man present.