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Marriage rules in the Oriental Orthodox Churches
Hi,
I am not sure if anyone would be able to answer the following questions for me. But it would be helpful if someone could.
Even though I am the one asking the questions and seeking answers here, I would suggest that whatever is answered be only taken as somewhat helpful guide, so that if someone is in a similar situation to what is described, they double check with a priest (or several priests) [of the relevant Church/es] that they know rather than rely on this thread.
1 ) Is marriage allowed between all Oriental Orthodox Churches, so that if a Coptic Orthodox wants to marry a Syrian Orthodox, or Armenian Orthodox or other Oriental Orthodox, it would be possible without either Church saying it isn't allowed? Same with an Armenian Orthodox and a Syrian Orthodox and Armenian or Syrian Orthodox and British Orthodox and any other combination between the Oriental Orthodox that you can think of?
2 ) Can a Syrian Orthodox marry and Eastern Orthodox or does the Syrian Orthodox Church not allow this? Can he marry a Catholic? What about a Protestant? What about an Anglican? a member of the Assyrian Church of the East? What about a non-Christian?
3 ) Can an Armenian Orthodox marry and Eastern Orthodox or does the Armenian Orthodox Church not allow this? Can he marry a Catholic? What about a Protestant? What about an Anglican? a member of the Assyrian Church of the East? What about a non-Christian?
4 ) Can an Ethiopian Orthodox marry and Eastern Orthodox or does the Ethiopian Orthodox Church not allow this? Can he marry a Catholic? What about a Protestant? What about an Anglican? a member of the Assyrian Church of the East? What about a non-Christian?
5 ) Can an Eritrean Orthodox marry and Eastern Orthodox or does the Eritrean Orthodox Church not allow this? Can he marry a Catholic? What about a Protestant? What about an Anglican? a member of the Assyrian Church of the East? What about a non-Christian?
6 ) Can an Indian Orthodox marry marry and Eastern Orthodox or does the Indian Orthodox Church not allow this? Can he marry a Catholic? What about a Protestant? What about an Anglican? a member of the Assyrian Church of the East? What about a non-Christian?
I know I asked a lot, but this is something I have been thinking about for a while now and I would appreciate some answers to these questions. Also, I would like to know the rules in some detail, which is why this post is a bit long.
Father Peter, I know that you are very knowledgeable on Oriental Orthodoxy, so I would very much appreciate your answers to these questions.
I am not sure if anyone would be able to answer the following questions for me. But it would be helpful if someone could.
Even though I am the one asking the questions and seeking answers here, I would suggest that whatever is answered be only taken as somewhat helpful guide, so that if someone is in a similar situation to what is described, they double check with a priest (or several priests) [of the relevant Church/es] that they know rather than rely on this thread.
1 ) Is marriage allowed between all Oriental Orthodox Churches, so that if a Coptic Orthodox wants to marry a Syrian Orthodox, or Armenian Orthodox or other Oriental Orthodox, it would be possible without either Church saying it isn't allowed? Same with an Armenian Orthodox and a Syrian Orthodox and Armenian or Syrian Orthodox and British Orthodox and any other combination between the Oriental Orthodox that you can think of?
2 ) Can a Syrian Orthodox marry and Eastern Orthodox or does the Syrian Orthodox Church not allow this? Can he marry a Catholic? What about a Protestant? What about an Anglican? a member of the Assyrian Church of the East? What about a non-Christian?
3 ) Can an Armenian Orthodox marry and Eastern Orthodox or does the Armenian Orthodox Church not allow this? Can he marry a Catholic? What about a Protestant? What about an Anglican? a member of the Assyrian Church of the East? What about a non-Christian?
4 ) Can an Ethiopian Orthodox marry and Eastern Orthodox or does the Ethiopian Orthodox Church not allow this? Can he marry a Catholic? What about a Protestant? What about an Anglican? a member of the Assyrian Church of the East? What about a non-Christian?
5 ) Can an Eritrean Orthodox marry and Eastern Orthodox or does the Eritrean Orthodox Church not allow this? Can he marry a Catholic? What about a Protestant? What about an Anglican? a member of the Assyrian Church of the East? What about a non-Christian?
6 ) Can an Indian Orthodox marry marry and Eastern Orthodox or does the Indian Orthodox Church not allow this? Can he marry a Catholic? What about a Protestant? What about an Anglican? a member of the Assyrian Church of the East? What about a non-Christian?
I know I asked a lot, but this is something I have been thinking about for a while now and I would appreciate some answers to these questions. Also, I would like to know the rules in some detail, which is why this post is a bit long.
Father Peter, I know that you are very knowledgeable on Oriental Orthodoxy, so I would very much appreciate your answers to these questions.
Comments
"Everything is permissible for me; but not all things are beneficial" 1 Cor. 6:12
Again, as far as I know. Someone correct me if I said anything wrong there.
Under the pontificate of Catholicos Karekin I [reposed, predecessor to the current Karekin II] there was an adopted statement that was inclusive that anyone who is baptized in the Name of the Triune God constitutes Christian. Catholicos Karekin I, as Supreme Catholicos of All Armenians, was originally an Archbishop in the United States under the jurisdiction of the Antelias--Cilicia Catholicosate.
NB: There are two Catholicoi for the Armenians: Cilicia and in Etchmiadzin. The one in Etchmiadzin bears the title: Supreme Catholicos.
He later became Catholicos of Cilicia. In an unprecedented situation, and after the Armenian Declaration of Independence from the USSR, was elected to become Supreme Catholicos in Armenia. This was felt to be a step towards full unification of the two jurisdictions, but it wound up being a disaster.
This is all an introduction to understand the process by which this promulgation came about. Armenia was in an exceptionally compromised situation after the great earthquake, the independence process, and a war against Azerbaijan for the liberation of Ngoro-Karabagh.
The Armenians were reaching out in all different directions for aid, and that included Western countries. Part of the outreach of Karekin I was to liberalize certain definitions, unfortunately, in order to be open for such aid.
In different gatherings, Holy Eucharist was offered to non-Orthodox, as a gesture of oneness; examples to: Congressman Chris Murphy, and even episcopalian clergy (including a woman who left the Armenian Church to become an episcopalian priest).
As a result, there is intermarriage allowed among the Armenians throughout different diocese with acceptance of mixed marriages, having full matrimonial church rites, and sacramental participation without a requisite conversion and Orthodox acceptance.
Minagir, will probably start the Litany, again, as to why I am so into the Armenian scene. Although, he is at the Monastery in Taxes (Texas) praying for everyone on this forum--hopefully.
ilovesaintmark, regarding the Armenians:
A) Do you mean that the Armenians allow intermarriage with any Christians and even non-Christians? If not, can you please clarify?
B) Does this apply to the Armenians under the Catholicos of Cilicia and the ones under the Catholicos of Etchmiadzin or just one? If just one, which one and how does the other one differ in regards to rules regarding marriage (e.g. do they only allow marriage with Oriental Orthodox?)?
C) Are the two Catholicoi (Cilicia and in Etchmiadzin) in commuion with each other?
D) In the west, how do you know which Armenian churches are under which Catholicos?
A) They do not allow intermarriage with non-Christians. The definition of "Christian" is as a I noted in my previous post.
B) The current Catholicos of Cilicia is Aram I. I do not know, or am aware, of any declarations in a similar fashion. The current Supreme Catholicos in Etchmiadzin, Karekin II, has passively continued the same policy.
C) The two Catholicoi are in full communion, but there is rivalry. The issue goes back to the 11th and 12th centuries. The rivalry spills over into the diaspora.
D) The two jurisdictions are known by different labels, as you tune into the names:
Primacy = Etchmiadzin = Supreme Catholicos
Prelacy = Cilicia = Catholicos (in Antelias)
Can you please answer the questions in my first post, even if only briefly? Answers to these questions are important to me and I would very much appreciate your answers to them. You don't have to answer of course, but I just wanted to point out that I would appreciate your answers to them.
Please note, I also sent you some more private/personal related question/s on this topic as a pm (personal message). Please have a look at them and reply via pm (for those new related questions that I sent via pm).
Before that civil wedding, we are planning to get married in church, esp. him, he wants our married to be solemnized by the church. he explained to me, he can only marry in your church and that his faith. He told me even we are married in civil, he is not married, and that because if your coptic member you have to marry the person that same faith with you and he mention that in egypt in your church they do not accept the civil wedding.
He told me, before we can marry, I have to believe in your faith, be baptize and be member. I want to get married in church beside the civil and I said yes to him to learn your faith and be baptize. I just want to know if your church can still marry us, now we are already married in civil?. what is your requirements?. He gave me your site and I read it about your faith. I learned that we have same believe about JESUS in our life. thank u very much, hope is not confusing..
I have issue too. Hope someone can answer me here or give me clarification. My husband and I are already married in our country in civil wedding. He is egyptian, a coptic orthodox member and I am christian too ,but not a member of any coptic or any catholic church. I believe in personal relationship to JESUS more than anything else, I believe in holy spirit ..
Before that civil wedding, we are planning to get married in church, esp. him, he wants our married to be solemnized by the church. he explained to me, he can only marry in your church and that his faith. He told me even we are married in civil, he is not married, and that because if your coptic member you have to marry the person that same faith with you and he mention that in egypt in your church they do not accept the civil wedding.
He told me, before we can marry, I have to believe in your faith, be baptize and be member. I want to get married in church beside the civil and I said yes to him to learn your faith and be baptize. I just want to know if your church can still marry us, now we are already married in civil?. what is your requirements?. He gave me your site and I read it about your faith. I learned that we have same believe about JESUS in our life. thank u very much, hope is not confusing..
I would say contact the closest Coptic Orthodox priest to you...after all, the whole process of converting and getting baptized is not a simple process.
About a civil marriage, I was told that here in the States, a marriage certificate is completed, then based on that a wedding ceremony in our church is done in which documents are signed that this happened and then those documents are taken back to the court to confirm the civil marriage. meaning that, which out the church's documents of marriage, a marriage is not valid in the state.
as for peter25's problem, there are 2 issues here.
1. getting the marriage recognised in the church (in your case the wedding needs to be done, or re done in the coptic church).
2. your spiritual journey and relationship with God.
if you ignore number 2, there are 2 options. you can ignore the orthodox church and drift between various churches with less strong theology that may or may not support you in your time of need, or you can pretend to be orthodox and get the baptism and church life done without really meaning it.
i don't recommend staying outside the orthodox church, as you will miss out on really strong, true teaching and help in your spiritual journey.
i especially don't recommend pretending to be orthodox, as the children you will have will eventually (when they are teenagers) notice you are not really serious in your faith and this will give them a real crisis of identity and they will probably turn to drugs, sex with dodgy people etc. etc.
if you don't have children, then there will be less true faith to unite you and your husband in difficult times (we all have difficult times; we need to plan for this to get though it more easily).
so this leaves the last option:
don't ignore number 2!
go to the orthodox church and ask serious honest questions about God and how we can approach Him, worship Him, and become more like Him. encourage your husband to ask serious questions as well.
does he really want to progress in his spiritual path, or does he want you two to get married in the church to make grandmother happy and go to more church events with nice food and fun people?
don't post the answers to these questions! these are personal questions you two should ask yourselves before you decide how to proceed.
if you decide to go on a spiritual journey, you will discover (as i did) that God is faithful and just and longs to reveal Himself to those who seek Him. if you are looking for depth in your faith (not just a few nice songs to hum in your car, and then swear at the guy who gets into your lane without indicating) then the orthodox church is the best place to look. we have inherited not just the written holy words from God (the Bible) but also the centuries of experience of people who have learnt from their fathers (who learnt from the apostles) how to apply those words and live a Christian life.
so i pray that God will guide you in your spiritual journeys and hope you to learn how you can travel together in these journeys to a beautiful life together in our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.