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Christ's birth from the Virgin
Hey All,
Firstly, I would like to wish you all a happy new years, and a glorious Nativity Feast, to come! I was delving on the season of Advent, and decided to look at the Thursday Theotokia for some details. I saw a couple contradictory verses, so I decided to do some research. The verses that say that 1) ...For her sake He revoked, the first curse. Which was pronounced upon our race, through the violation, incurred by the first woman, when she ate from the fruit of the tree. 2) He was also born according to the flesh without pain for the Virgin.
From what I understand, the Virgin had deep pain, until she gave birth, and that was painless; the actual birth.
This doesn't seem too right to me. Is there anything I am missing. I know that there was another thread about this, so please don't refer me to it but I am looking forward to see your answers.
FirstChurch
Firstly, I would like to wish you all a happy new years, and a glorious Nativity Feast, to come! I was delving on the season of Advent, and decided to look at the Thursday Theotokia for some details. I saw a couple contradictory verses, so I decided to do some research. The verses that say that 1) ...For her sake He revoked, the first curse. Which was pronounced upon our race, through the violation, incurred by the first woman, when she ate from the fruit of the tree. 2) He was also born according to the flesh without pain for the Virgin.
From what I understand, the Virgin had deep pain, until she gave birth, and that was painless; the actual birth.
This doesn't seem too right to me. Is there anything I am missing. I know that there was another thread about this, so please don't refer me to it but I am looking forward to see your answers.
FirstChurch
Comments
Thank u for the well wishes. Happy new year and a bountiful Nativity Feast to u and yours. Also,congratulations on your worthy decision to study the Theotokia!
I think The Holy Virgin St. Mary felt anguish and pain in the knowledge that Her Pure Son Jesus Christ would have so much undeserved suffering in His time on earth. She had to flee to save His life even before He was born! So I think Her 'pain' was more mental than physical. While mental stress can lead to some physical discomfort; I do not think the Holy Virgin St. Mary had much physical pain before or after Her 'delivery'.
Forgive me, FirstChurch
The word that is used there is "pa;oc" and it refers to "the pains of sin." the fathers used that term to explain the effects of the original sin on humanity. so in that context, when we say, she gave birth to him without sin, meaning that He was born with out sin.
Very interesting liturgical reference to original sin.
Thank you Mina. What does your name mean anyway? Is it "recording" in arabic?
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=14092.msg162409#msg162409 date=1357189025]
The word that is used there is "pa;oc" and it refers to "the pains of sin." the fathers used that term to explain the effects of the original sin on humanity. so in that context, when we say, she gave birth to him without sin, meaning that He was born with out sin.
Very interesting liturgical reference to original sin.
HGB Rafael was the one who explained it when people asked him....he used the reference of the study of pathology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathology) hehe. it's a nick name. tasgeel does mean recording
I am still a little confused though since I asked this exact question a year ago or so and many came on here with direct quotes from certain fathers who attest to the fact that she gave birth without pain. They even used texts from our hymns (do not recall which ones) to back their argument.
St. Irenaeus Commentary on Isaiah 66:7,
"where the prophet foretells a remarkable repopulation of Jerusalem through Mother Zion and interprets it as spoken of the Virgin Mary who gave birth to a man child in unique fashion, without birth bangs. “Also concerning His birth, the same prophet (Isaiah) says in another place: “Before she who was in labour brought forth, and before pains of labour came, there came forth delivered a man child. He proclaimed this unlooked - for an extraordinary childbirth of the Virgin, thus affirming her virginity."
St. Gregory of Nyssa, On the Song of Songs 13
“As the Son has been given to us without a father, so the Child has been born without a birth. As the Virgin herself did not know how the body that received divinity was formed in her own body, so neither did she notice the birth. Even the prophet Isaiah affirms that her giving birth was without pain, when he says: ‘Before the pangs of birth arrived, a male child came forth and was born’ (Is 66:7)… Just as she who introduced death into nature by her sin was condemned to bear children in suffering and travail, it was necessary that the Mother of life, after having conceived in joy, should give birth in joy as well. No wonder that the angel said to her, ‘Rejoice, O full of grace!’ (Lk 1:28). With these words he took from her the burden of that sorrow which, from the beginning of creation, has been imposed on birth because of sin.”
St. Ephraim the Syrian: Explanations 2:6,8
"Just as (the Lord) made His entrance when the doors were closed, in the same way did He come forth from the Virgin’s womb, because this virgin really and truly gave birth without pain.... Her virginity remained safe and sound."
St. Augustine Sermon on Nativity
“In conceiving you were all pure, in giving birth you were without pain.”
Apocryphal Writings Odes of Solomon:
"According to the “Odes of Solomon”, she travailed and brought forth a son without incurring pain."
this is coming from this thread: http://tasbeha.org/content/community/index.php/topic,12054.15.html
Wow. This is fascinating! I noticed there are several differences between the english translation and the original coptic. Maybe someone well skilled in Coptic can re-translate the entire psalmodia :)
I am still a little confused though since I asked this exact question a year ago or so and many came on here with direct quotes from certain fathers who attest to the fact that she gave birth without pain. They even used texts from our hymns (do not recall which ones) to back their argument.
I remember that post....but i don't know what we got it because when posts get that long, i just can't follow.
since the paramoun is tomorrow, http://tasbeha.org/hymn_library/view/1494
"O what divine, and mysterious contractions..." contractions is translated as "pangs" in almost all other books but i don't think people know what "pangs" are even though it is another word for contractions.
may the contractions were so divine and mysterious that she simply didn't feel it. ELMOHEM, in either ways, i don't see any doubt to our faith that should come out of this. it simply doesn't effect us.
So are you saying that she endured no labor pains? It does not suffice to simply say so. Could you please back up your thought? One can't really say "I think" about theological/dogmatical/essential spirituality like this.
Forgive me, FirstChurch
It's O.K FirstChurch, u r right! Instead of "I think" I should say: From my study of the Holy Scriptures and other Apocraphyl books; from the teachings of the Church on the subject of the Virgin Birth, I understand it to be a Holy Mystery. A Blessed Event, not really comparable to the carnal way we are conceived or born. This is a mistake we make, trying to understand God by our standards. That's why many people do not believe Jesus is God; because they are thinking of God on their level and not in the elevated, enlightened level of His Realm!
As u can see by the replys men who reached sainthood on this earth are the ones able to interpret the holy mysteries. We are all petitioned to strive for that type of level of understanding of God. As we pray for Him to:
[center]lead us to His Kindom[/center]