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Ordination of Women Priests
Hi
Could someone tell me why women cannot be priests/bishops in the Coptic Church?
I'm pretty sure this has been discussed before, but I could not find the historical links on this site for this subject.
I understand that we are an apostolic orthodox church, and we follow still the laws given to Moses and the priesthood. That makes sense. No doubt, us as a Church, we have many reasons that prevent this (I am assuming the reasons I've mentioned are linked to the answer. If its incorrect, please let me know).
However, why would the Anglican Church , for example, decide to forbid women priests - they are not following any orthodox/spiritual practices whatsoever for this to be a blocking point for them
Thanks
Could someone tell me why women cannot be priests/bishops in the Coptic Church?
I'm pretty sure this has been discussed before, but I could not find the historical links on this site for this subject.
I understand that we are an apostolic orthodox church, and we follow still the laws given to Moses and the priesthood. That makes sense. No doubt, us as a Church, we have many reasons that prevent this (I am assuming the reasons I've mentioned are linked to the answer. If its incorrect, please let me know).
However, why would the Anglican Church , for example, decide to forbid women priests - they are not following any orthodox/spiritual practices whatsoever for this to be a blocking point for them
Thanks
Comments
http://tasbeha.org/content/hh_books/ordofwom/index.html
Is that about it?
I think this is heavily dependent on the fact that our society (since the beginning of time, and how it is meant to be) is a patriarchal society.
God, Himself, is portrayed as male.
God created a male (Adam) first.
The woman was the one who fell and then caused the man to fall.
Fast forward to Leviticus, a woman was unclean for 80 days if she bore a girl, yet only 40 if she bore a boy (Lev 12:2-5)
Fast forward to the birth of Christ, God sent His only begotten Son (not daughter)
The 12 disciples were all male
And then St. Paul explicitly wrote (through the guidance of the Holy Spirit) that a woman is not to teach in the church.
When the Lord said "Go therefore, make disciples of all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit," He was talking to His disciples.
Our Lord Jesus Christ Himself instituted the Holy Sacrament of Priesthood, and He instituted it to His disciples. It is not a limitation put on by the church, but rather an order from God.
http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles6/SchmemannOrdination.php
Canadian OCA priest, Father Lawrence Farley has just published the most comprehensive defense of traditional Orthodox male family and church leadership that I am aware of. He offers the Orthodox Feminists some modern EO compromise on menistration, but has presented a pretty complete study. His demonstration that authority and leadership in the church is derived from the husbands' authority in the First, fallen family, Gen. 3:16b, is new and helpful to me.
why would the Anglican Church , for example, decide to forbid women priests - they are not following any orthodox/spiritual practices whatsoever for this to be a blocking point for them
Anglicans have women priests.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XldltUoF0Yo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKpePfkInXM
They just haven't women bishops. But, that is just matter of time as you can see.
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=13920.msg161380#msg161380 date=1353585408]
why would the Anglican Church , for example, decide to forbid women priests - they are not following any orthodox/spiritual practices whatsoever for this to be a blocking point for them
Anglicans have women priests.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XldltUoF0Yo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKpePfkInXM
They just haven't women bishops. But, that is just matter of time as you can see.
Change occurs quickly in the theology of a changing god. Don't blink, we're in the age of developmental ecumenical theology. You've come a long way, baby!! Which direction??? Take a look.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordination_of_women_in_the_Anglican_Communion
Catholic girls are keeping up with the times, too!!
http://romancatholicwomenpriests.org/
So, the main reasons is that it was never done before, despite women being also holy, this was not seen in the OT , hence we do not do that?
Is that about it?
Well Zoxsasi, I know I can say without a doubt that none of the holy women past or present in our Orthodox Church wished or wish to be Priests! The reason why not; simple, because she is holy and does Gods Will.
The Anglican church and Roman Catholic Women Priests can fool themselves and think they are serving God. It's obvious that these groups try to validate their existence by claiming Apostolic succession and yet the only groups, church or ecclesiastical bodies that "recognize" them are themselves. It's like saying "I certify that I am Abraham Lincoln" while simultaneously no one else certifies I am Abraham Lincoln. Only heretics employ such tactics.
Let us thank God that in His mercy and love for sinners, he does not send fire from heaven and destroy those who rebel against His priesthood like Korah in Numbers 16. For now at least.
If we take it a step farther, one will notice that of all the female transvestite monastic saints (there's about 20), none of them were ordained priest. Even St Thacla, who accompanied St Paul, and ministered side by side with him, "baptized" in fire and death twice, spent her life in seclusion as a male but never "ordained" as priest. It would be very easy for a female, dressed as a man, to be nominated and ordained priest. But it never happened. One can only deduce that it is not God's will for women to be priests, even when they have completely assumed a male identity.
I had thought to mention St. Marina; who dressed like a monk and lived in a Monastery in seclusion with her father until he died and then lived out the rest of her life in monk garb. But we have to remember that those were the early days of Christianity and there were no Convents or nuns as yet. St. Marina had to disguise herself to be able to live in the Monastery with her father. For me, I would not call her a 'transvestite' nor say she completely assumed a male identity. I think she heid onto her own female identity; that's why the monks thought her a peculiar person. I guess when her true identity was found out, it all made sense to the monks why she did not seem to quite 'fit' in.
But, yes, maybe if she had not been so peculiar or her reputation hadn't been 'tarnished' as it was she might have quite easily have been nominated for Priesthood; no one could deny her deep devotion to God and asceitism. That happenstance could have ended her rouse though; because I do not think she would have gone through with her deception that far.
For me, I would say that when a woman who truly knows God, as a holy woman, her only desire is to do Gods will.
Look at what Pope Shenouda III (God repose his soul) paired female priesthood with....homosexuality, an abomination! This should tell us something right away!
How would it work if we had men and women seperated in the congregation outside but a women with the men on the inside? We are seperated for a purpose that all are to be pure for the remission of sin.
Eve gave Adam the apple. It says something about women it that they like to share; but sharing is not always safe and that they would like men to do the same; but truely men have to be discerning in what is acceptable and what is not; what we should be sharing and what we shouldn't.
In this day and age the lines have being blurred by women in the workforce so even psychology is material orientated rather than the battles of the soul that the church Fathers had. Psychologists see alot of human behaviour as accectable instead of fighting sin that would be better for the soul.
I would see women priests as a material modern innovation.
The Anglican church and Roman Catholic Women Priests can fool themselves and think they are serving God. It's obvious that these groups try to validate their existence by claiming Apostolic succession and yet the only groups, church or ecclesiastical bodies that "recognize" them are themselves. It's like saying "I certify that I am Abraham Lincoln" while simultaneously no one else certifies I am Abraham Lincoln. Only heretics employ such tactics.
Speaking of the Catholic Church, the debate on women's ordination is currently raging once again after the release of a youtube video called "Ordain a Lady." There's plenty of wrong things being done and said in the video, such that ordaining "a lady" would be completely off the records because of the video.
At any rate, women's ordination is not going to happen in the Catholic Church (it's infallible teaching that only men can be ordained) nor in the Orthodox Church (it's never happened). The only communities that do so are those who interpret Scripture in whatever way they choose, and those not rooted in Apostolic Tradition -- such as the heretical groups of the past, like the Montanists, and heretical groups of the present, which includes some Protestants.
She begins by saying that she had a dream as a girl, which was based of St. Therese of Liseux. What I found most interesting is that her call for priesthood is not one based of self sacrifice for the good of the church, but because of "her dream." But where is the delf denial of the priesthood ministry implemented by Christ? Is priesthood not the breaking of the self for Christ? But this seems to be in a diamtricaly opposed direction to this call. Her call is one of self glorification, and as such, the church cannot have her serve. She is demonic.
She then says, "Don't listen to St. Paul, 'cuz I can lead the way." Well why should I trust you to the priesthood then? The priesthood is a preservation of the apostolic teaching of the church. for what reason then should I trust someone who's very "call" to priesthood is a rejection of apostolic teaching. What is exceptional here, is that she does not try to lie around St. Paul's argument, but simply says, "Let's ignore the idiot." But was Paul not the church's foremost theologian? She denies a few things in this statement: She denies biblical inspiration, and Paul's apostolic call. And yet she wishes to be a priest? to do what? Dance around the steps of the church screaming "Forget St. Paul?" No, she should not be among the priests, but among the "Pussy Riot Girls."
"I was Baptized." So what? You were baptized, and then rejected the teachings of the church which I showed above. Or are you a proestant now? Salvation in a moment? I thought your "M.Div" whould have explained these concepts for you. It seems that she was at the salon that day in class. But hey, at least while she was there, she was able to here a Carly Ray Jepsen song and base her theology off that.
"God just called me." You asked God, and the Devil answered because god was too busy laughing.
"My call is a fact, but some Pope in a hat closed discussion on that, and now he's in my way." That Pope is the successor of St. Peter. but it doesn't seem that she cares., She is a reductionist, reducing the office of a bishop to a name, clothing and sex. Reductionists are atheists, and not priests.
I'm to lazy to go on, but in my opinion, I trult loved this video. It proved once and for all that women do not belong in the priesthood. These women are stupid. They do not deserve to show their face in front of a church, nor on its steps. What they deserve is the treatment of Korah and his rebellious scum.
Ray
What makes it harder, particularly in the 21st century, is that everything is disguised within a 'noble cause'. It's meant as an appeal to people's emotions. This particular video was meant to instigate thoughts of sexism in the Apostolic churches and that women aren't valued as men, aren't as holy, etc.
This, tragically, snares some people, particularly women, into 'waking up' by this enlightened philosophy. They tie it in with current women's movements not realizing that the ecclesiastical order of God's preordained roles for genders isn't the same order that's acceptable here in society. Sure women can be become CEOs, owners, managers-the church has nothing against that. But the roles within the Church are different.
We can not take what's in the world and transpose it unto the church. There's divine wisdom in the commandments for things to function properly.
We need to go back to understanding that "We are equal but have different roles." For some reason, those women take 'different roles' as 'not equal'. It's a failure of understanding things at their most fundamental level.