No, Chi-ou-oini is the exposition for the Feast of the Resurrection, chanted after the Gospel of the Liturgy. There is no exposition for the Feast of the Nativity during the Liturgy.
[quote author=JG link=topic=14105.msg162462#msg162462 date=1357467787] No, Chi-ou-oini is the exposition for the Feast of the Resurrection, chanted after the Gospel of the Liturgy. There is no exposition for the Feast of the Nativity during the Liturgy.
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=14105.msg162487#msg162487 date=1357577818] [quote author=JG link=topic=14105.msg162462#msg162462 date=1357467787] No, Chi-ou-oini is the exposition for the Feast of the Resurrection, chanted after the Gospel of the Liturgy. There is no exposition for the Feast of the Nativity during the Liturgy.
actually it is....even the link that you just included has Albair saying, 'lahn elfarah', the joyous tune.
The Tune of Chi-ou-oini and the Exposition of the Saintly Workers may be a joyous tune, but it is not the "standard" Joyous tune for the exposition (the second one I linked from Mlm Tawfik). You can't use the tune from Chi-ou-oini/Exposition of the Saintly Workers for other Joyous expositions.
[quote author=JG link=topic=14105.msg162490#msg162490 date=1357581973] [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=14105.msg162487#msg162487 date=1357577818] [quote author=JG link=topic=14105.msg162462#msg162462 date=1357467787] No, Chi-ou-oini is the exposition for the Feast of the Resurrection, chanted after the Gospel of the Liturgy. There is no exposition for the Feast of the Nativity during the Liturgy.
actually it is....even the link that you just included has Albair saying, 'lahn elfarah', the joyous tune.
The Tune of Chi-ou-oini and the Exposition of the Saintly Workers may be a joyous tune, but it is not the "standard" Joyous tune for the exposition (the second one I linked from Mlm Tawfik). You can't use the tune from Chi-ou-oini/Exposition of the Saintly Workers for other Joyous expositions.
There aren't really "standards" for commentary readings. most have been lost long ago.
in the link you have for muallem tawfik He says that it is the same tune as chiouoine. It is the same tune. Muallem Ibrahim records the tarh for the liturgy of feast of the cross and the ones for pentecost and all of these commentaries are on the tune of joy which is the same as chiounie or tarh el fa3ala
[quote author=dg920 link=topic=14105.msg162492#msg162492 date=1357601722] in the link you have for muallem tawfik He says that it is the same tune as chiouoine. It is the same tune. Muallem Ibrahim records the tarh for the liturgy of feast of the cross and the ones for pentecost and all of these commentaries are on the tune of joy which is the same as chiounie or tarh el fa3ala
Yes I noticed that Mlm Tawfik said that. I can only suppose that maybe he didn't receive the longer "proper" tune (the one in the first link) that Albair teaches now is to be used only for Chi-ou-oini and the Exposition of the Saintly Workers. Or, more likely perhaps, that he never "rakeb" or "fitted" the text of Chi-ou-oini to the tune he was taught for the Exposition of the Saintly Workers.
The second tune I linked from Mlm Tawfik is a much shorter tune than the first. I think that maybe a lot of Mlmeen, including Ibrahim Ayad were using the tune from the 2nd link (the "standard" shorter joyous tune) to chant Chi-ou-oini in because they didn't know the longer tune for it (the one in the first link). Either that, or they never fitted Chi-ou-oini to that tune. But this is just my thinking, someone would have to confirm this. All I know for sure is that Albair teaches that Chi-ou-oini and the Exposition of the Saintly Workers share the same tune: that is what is written in the books, and that is what is most correct now.
Tar7 El Fa3ala sounds nothing like the second tune - go and listen to it from any Cantor and tell me how it is the same as the tune Mlm Tawfik is using.
As for your comment about the Feast of the Cross, there is another tune for the Watos Exposition in that rite that Mlm Ibrahim records for vespers: here.
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=14105.msg162491#msg162491 date=1357599858] There aren't really "standards" for commentary readings. most have been lost long ago.
We may indeed have lost some tunes for expositions, but this is besides the point. We currently have two tunes for Joyous Expositions we have received (the two tunes in the first post, if there are more you know of, I'd love to hear about them).
The books clearly state that the Exposition of the Saintly Workers (Tarh el fa3ala) is chanted in the tune of Chi-ou-oini, and that Chi-ou-oini is chanted in the tune of the Exposition of the Saintly Workers. We know the tune of the Exposition of the Saintly Workers, many cantors have recorded it. My guess however is that no one ever "rakeb" or fitted the words of Chi-ou-oini to the tune of Tarh el Fa3ala. Albair has merely revived the correct way of chanting Chi-ou-oini (which is in the books).
I am guessing that the recording above from Mlm Tawfik is because he never fitted the words of Chi-ou-oini to the tune of Tarh el Fa3ala, and so recorded it in the "standard" or default tune that all other Joyous expositions are recorded in, the second link.
If someone knows better and I am wrong, please show me how for my benefit, thank you.
let me add somethings.....You are right about howtarh elfa3alla and chioo oine refer to each other......but the one that is recorded is tarh elfa3lla and that recording is trust worthy...legit ya3ny. but i havn't heard a recording for chi-o-oinee from anyone other then m fahim and you'll see his recording his like m tafik recording that you listed a couple of previous posts--the tarkeep of the hazzat on the estikhons is the same. but where did they get this from.... http://tasbeha.org/mp3/Hymns/Fasts/Nativity/Higher_Institute_of_Coptic_Studies/Part_3.html file: "Unknown" (whoever uploaded this didn't know that this is tarh elfa3ala :-)) min: 1:35
so i believe tarh elfa3ala simply has an extra minute of hazzat before you get into the ones on the estikhones....similar to the annual adam into here (http://tasbeha.org/mp3/Praises/Midnight_Praises/Wagdi_Bishara.html - Difnar (Baba 18th) - Annual Adam Tune)....i think m Ibrahim thinks that to....why?! because last year in easter the chorus said choo-oinine in tarh elfa3ala tune, with all those extra hazzat:
m tawfik says that his recording is handed down from m Mikhael and other cantors....IN FACT i believe that m fahim learned those hazzat from him and he was the one who rakebha on chioione.....if you hear some of the interviews of m tawfik, he says that he was brought to egypt many times to spend time with m fahim, being an archdeacon, and teach him some of the alhan from deer elmuharaq. one of those alhan was also lahn el-molakhas, oo-oine afshai which wasn't famous in the Baharee provinces.
Guys this is very simple. There is a recording of muallem fahim saying the same khen efran entitrias as did muallem tawfik saying it is in the chiouoine tune. If you guys learn tarh el fa3ala youll realize that the first minute as mina said is the longer tune but after that it goes into that short beautiful tune taht starts like khenoushot and then continues differently. If you dont say the long part in the beginning the whole hymn would continue like that. And you guys are lucky. I actually just found a lesson for muallem ibrahim in which he taught them chiouine and he talks about all these things in it and clarifies all the different expositions.
And i have a recording of muallem tawfik saying the Exposition of the Workers in the Long tune btw. AS well as muallem fahim, muallem ibrahim and abouna mettias which is on this site.
[quote author=dg920 link=topic=14105.msg162517#msg162517 date=1357660508] And i have a recording of muallem tawfik saying the Exposition of the Workers in the Long tune btw. AS well as muallem fahim, muallem ibrahim and abouna mettias which is on this site.
Thanks dg920, sounds good. Would you mind sharing that recording of Mlm Tawfik? Thanks.
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=14105.msg162506#msg162506 date=1357634140] let me add somethings.....You are right about howtarh elfa3alla and chioo oine refer to each other......but the one that is recorded is tarh elfa3lla and that recording is trust worthy...legit ya3ny. but i havn't heard a recording for chi-o-oinee from anyone other then m fahim and you'll see his recording his like m tafik recording that you listed a couple of previous posts--the tarkeep of the hazzat on the estikhons is the same. but where did they get this from.... http://tasbeha.org/mp3/Hymns/Fasts/Nativity/Higher_Institute_of_Coptic_Studies/Part_3.html file: "Unknown" (whoever uploaded this didn't know that this is tarh elfa3ala :-)) min: 1:35
so i believe tarh elfa3ala simply has an extra minute of hazzat before you get into the ones on the estikhones....similar to the annual adam into here (http://tasbeha.org/mp3/Praises/Midnight_Praises/Wagdi_Bishara.html - Difnar (Baba 18th) - Annual Adam Tune)....i think m Ibrahim thinks that to....why?! because last year in easter the chorus said choo-oinine in tarh elfa3ala tune, with all those extra hazzat:
m tawfik says that his recording is handed down from m Mikhael and other cantors....IN FACT i believe that m fahim learned those hazzat from him and he was the one who rakebha on chioione.....if you hear some of the interviews of m tawfik, he says that he was brought to egypt many times to spend time with m fahim, being an archdeacon, and teach him some of the alhan from deer elmuharaq. one of those alhan was also lahn el-molakhas, oo-oine afshai which wasn't famous in the Baharee provinces.
Just for further clarification here on the forum. The joyous tune is the same as the tune for chiouoine and tarh el fa3ala. It is the same tune. Its just that it can be said with the extension in the beginning or without it. Kind of like the paschal exposition intro and ending. Albair just took the longer tune and put it on khen efran. Usually the only time khen efran is said that way is in the 50s when there is a funeral so there usually is no reason to say it long which is why it was recorded short. Chiouoine is the specific exposition for the Feast of the Resurrection. If there is an exposition for The Feast of Nativity then it can and should be said in the same tune just like any other joyous exposition
[quote author=dg920 link=topic=14105.msg162530#msg162530 date=1357676535] Just for further clarification here on the forum. The joyous tune is the same as the tune for chiouoine and tarh el fa3ala. It is the same tune. Its just that it can be said with the extension in the beginning or without it. Kind of like the paschal exposition intro and ending. Albair just took the longer tune and put it on khen efran. Usually the only time khen efran is said that way is in the 50s when there is a funeral so there usually is no reason to say it long which is why it was recorded short. Chiouoine is the specific exposition for the Feast of the Resurrection. If there is an exposition for The Feast of Nativity then it can and should be said in the same tune just like any other joyous exposition [quote author=dg920 link=topic=14105.msg162517#msg162517 date=1357660508] And i have a recording of muallem tawfik saying the Exposition of the Workers in the Long tune btw. AS well as muallem fahim, muallem ibrahim and abouna mettias which is on this site.
the thing is, there is no books that will tell you Chioione or tarh elfa3la is the Joyous tune of adam expositions. if you find any older books that say that, please let us no.....not that i am disagreeing, but just to clarify the difference between things that are set in stone (are in books) and things that we deduce from knowing about hymns.
[quote author=dg920 link=topic=14105.msg162517#msg162517 date=1357660508] And i have a recording of muallem tawfik saying the Exposition of the Workers in the Long tune btw. AS well as muallem fahim, muallem ibrahim and abouna mettias which is on this site.
i would like to hear a recording of m fahim saying tarh elfa3ala (and specifically that and not cho-oini).
Comments
Also bear in mind that Chi-ou-oini is chanted in the unique tune of the Exposition of the Saintly Workers - it is not the default tune for Joyous Expositions (which have a different tune).
No, Chi-ou-oini is the exposition for the Feast of the Resurrection, chanted after the Gospel of the Liturgy. There is no exposition for the Feast of the Nativity during the Liturgy.
Also bear in mind that Chi-ou-oini is chanted in the unique tune of the Exposition of the Saintly Workers - it is not the default tune for Joyous Expositions (which have a different tune).
actually it is....even the link that you just included has Albair saying, 'lahn elfarah', the joyous tune.
[quote author=JG link=topic=14105.msg162462#msg162462 date=1357467787]
No, Chi-ou-oini is the exposition for the Feast of the Resurrection, chanted after the Gospel of the Liturgy. There is no exposition for the Feast of the Nativity during the Liturgy.
Also bear in mind that Chi-ou-oini is chanted in the unique tune of the Exposition of the Saintly Workers - it is not the default tune for Joyous Expositions (which have a different tune).
actually it is....even the link that you just included has Albair saying, 'lahn elfarah', the joyous tune.
The Tune of Chi-ou-oini and the Exposition of the Saintly Workers may be a joyous tune, but it is not the "standard" Joyous tune for the exposition (the second one I linked from Mlm Tawfik). You can't use the tune from Chi-ou-oini/Exposition of the Saintly Workers for other Joyous expositions.
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=14105.msg162487#msg162487 date=1357577818]
[quote author=JG link=topic=14105.msg162462#msg162462 date=1357467787]
No, Chi-ou-oini is the exposition for the Feast of the Resurrection, chanted after the Gospel of the Liturgy. There is no exposition for the Feast of the Nativity during the Liturgy.
Also bear in mind that Chi-ou-oini is chanted in the unique tune of the Exposition of the Saintly Workers - it is not the default tune for Joyous Expositions (which have a different tune).
actually it is....even the link that you just included has Albair saying, 'lahn elfarah', the joyous tune.
The Tune of Chi-ou-oini and the Exposition of the Saintly Workers may be a joyous tune, but it is not the "standard" Joyous tune for the exposition (the second one I linked from Mlm Tawfik). You can't use the tune from Chi-ou-oini/Exposition of the Saintly Workers for other Joyous expositions.
There aren't really "standards" for commentary readings. most have been lost long ago.
in the link you have for muallem tawfik He says that it is the same tune as chiouoine. It is the same tune. Muallem Ibrahim records the tarh for the liturgy of feast of the cross and the ones for pentecost and all of these commentaries are on the tune of joy which is the same as chiounie or tarh el fa3ala
Yes I noticed that Mlm Tawfik said that. I can only suppose that maybe he didn't receive the longer "proper" tune (the one in the first link) that Albair teaches now is to be used only for Chi-ou-oini and the Exposition of the Saintly Workers. Or, more likely perhaps, that he never "rakeb" or "fitted" the text of Chi-ou-oini to the tune he was taught for the Exposition of the Saintly Workers.
The second tune I linked from Mlm Tawfik is a much shorter tune than the first. I think that maybe a lot of Mlmeen, including Ibrahim Ayad were using the tune from the 2nd link (the "standard" shorter joyous tune) to chant Chi-ou-oini in because they didn't know the longer tune for it (the one in the first link). Either that, or they never fitted Chi-ou-oini to that tune. But this is just my thinking, someone would have to confirm this. All I know for sure is that Albair teaches that Chi-ou-oini and the Exposition of the Saintly Workers share the same tune: that is what is written in the books, and that is what is most correct now.
Tar7 El Fa3ala sounds nothing like the second tune - go and listen to it from any Cantor and tell me how it is the same as the tune Mlm Tawfik is using.
As for your comment about the Feast of the Cross, there is another tune for the Watos Exposition in that rite that Mlm Ibrahim records for vespers: here.
There aren't really "standards" for commentary readings. most have been lost long ago.
We may indeed have lost some tunes for expositions, but this is besides the point. We currently have two tunes for Joyous Expositions we have received (the two tunes in the first post, if there are more you know of, I'd love to hear about them).
The books clearly state that the Exposition of the Saintly Workers (Tarh el fa3ala) is chanted in the tune of Chi-ou-oini, and that Chi-ou-oini is chanted in the tune of the Exposition of the Saintly Workers. We know the tune of the Exposition of the Saintly Workers, many cantors have recorded it. My guess however is that no one ever "rakeb" or fitted the words of Chi-ou-oini to the tune of Tarh el Fa3ala. Albair has merely revived the correct way of chanting Chi-ou-oini (which is in the books).
I am guessing that the recording above from Mlm Tawfik is because he never fitted the words of Chi-ou-oini to the tune of Tarh el Fa3ala, and so recorded it in the "standard" or default tune that all other Joyous expositions are recorded in, the second link.
If someone knows better and I am wrong, please show me how for my benefit, thank you.
http://tasbeha.org/mp3/Hymns/Fasts/Nativity/Higher_Institute_of_Coptic_Studies/Part_3.html
file: "Unknown" (whoever uploaded this didn't know that this is tarh elfa3ala :-))
min: 1:35
so i believe tarh elfa3ala simply has an extra minute of hazzat before you get into the ones on the estikhones....similar to the annual adam into here (http://tasbeha.org/mp3/Praises/Midnight_Praises/Wagdi_Bishara.html - Difnar (Baba 18th) - Annual Adam Tune)....i think m Ibrahim thinks that to....why?! because last year in easter the chorus said choo-oinine in tarh elfa3ala tune, with all those extra hazzat:
m tawfik says that his recording is handed down from m Mikhael and other cantors....IN FACT i believe that m fahim learned those hazzat from him and he was the one who rakebha on chioione.....if you hear some of the interviews of m tawfik, he says that he was brought to egypt many times to spend time with m fahim, being an archdeacon, and teach him some of the alhan from deer elmuharaq. one of those alhan was also lahn el-molakhas, oo-oine afshai which wasn't famous in the Baharee provinces.
And i have a recording of muallem tawfik saying the Exposition of the Workers in the Long tune btw. AS well as muallem fahim, muallem ibrahim and abouna mettias which is on this site.
Thanks dg920, sounds good. Would you mind sharing that recording of Mlm Tawfik? Thanks.
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=14105.msg162506#msg162506 date=1357634140]
let me add somethings.....You are right about howtarh elfa3alla and chioo oine refer to each other......but the one that is recorded is tarh elfa3lla and that recording is trust worthy...legit ya3ny. but i havn't heard a recording for chi-o-oinee from anyone other then m fahim and you'll see his recording his like m tafik recording that you listed a couple of previous posts--the tarkeep of the hazzat on the estikhons is the same. but where did they get this from....
http://tasbeha.org/mp3/Hymns/Fasts/Nativity/Higher_Institute_of_Coptic_Studies/Part_3.html
file: "Unknown" (whoever uploaded this didn't know that this is tarh elfa3ala :-))
min: 1:35
so i believe tarh elfa3ala simply has an extra minute of hazzat before you get into the ones on the estikhones....similar to the annual adam into here (http://tasbeha.org/mp3/Praises/Midnight_Praises/Wagdi_Bishara.html - Difnar (Baba 18th) - Annual Adam Tune)....i think m Ibrahim thinks that to....why?! because last year in easter the chorus said choo-oinine in tarh elfa3ala tune, with all those extra hazzat:
m tawfik says that his recording is handed down from m Mikhael and other cantors....IN FACT i believe that m fahim learned those hazzat from him and he was the one who rakebha on chioione.....if you hear some of the interviews of m tawfik, he says that he was brought to egypt many times to spend time with m fahim, being an archdeacon, and teach him some of the alhan from deer elmuharaq. one of those alhan was also lahn el-molakhas, oo-oine afshai which wasn't famous in the Baharee provinces.
Thank you for your insight Mina :)
Just for further clarification here on the forum. The joyous tune is the same as the tune for chiouoine and tarh el fa3ala. It is the same tune. Its just that it can be said with the extension in the beginning or without it. Kind of like the paschal exposition intro and ending. Albair just took the longer tune and put it on khen efran. Usually the only time khen efran is said that way is in the 50s when there is a funeral so there usually is no reason to say it long which is why it was recorded short. Chiouoine is the specific exposition for the Feast of the Resurrection. If there is an exposition for The Feast of Nativity then it can and should be said in the same tune just like any other joyous exposition
[quote author=dg920 link=topic=14105.msg162517#msg162517 date=1357660508]
And i have a recording of muallem tawfik saying the Exposition of the Workers in the Long tune btw. AS well as muallem fahim, muallem ibrahim and abouna mettias which is on this site.
the thing is, there is no books that will tell you Chioione or tarh elfa3la is the Joyous tune of adam expositions. if you find any older books that say that, please let us no.....not that i am disagreeing, but just to clarify the difference between things that are set in stone (are in books) and things that we deduce from knowing about hymns.
[quote author=dg920 link=topic=14105.msg162517#msg162517 date=1357660508]
And i have a recording of muallem tawfik saying the Exposition of the Workers in the Long tune btw. AS well as muallem fahim, muallem ibrahim and abouna mettias which is on this site.
i would like to hear a recording of m fahim saying tarh elfa3ala (and specifically that and not cho-oini).