No. He is saying the Holy Spirit works through the priest or bishop as a vessel but it doesn't have anything to do with the minister. One of the best ways this is illustrated in the story of the sinful priest. (I don't remember if the story is in the Synaxarium or in the Apophthegmata/Sayings of the Desert Fathers.) There was a sinful priest who was demon possessed committing a sin. One of the elders saw the demons around the priest even when this priest went to officiate the liturgy. Does this mean the bread and wine was not the true Body and Blood of Christ because the priest was demon possessed? Of course not. The sacraments are efficacious because the "work of the Holy Spirit" (as we say in the Liturgy of St Gregory). The story continues that the elder priest prayed and the demons left that priest at the door but returned to him when he finished the liturgy. When the officiating priest repented, the demons left for good. The point of the story is that regardless of the sinfulness of the priest, the sacraments are still done by the Holy Spirit, not the holiness (or lack of holiness) of the priest.
The same holds with ordinations. While we try to use an electoral process to minimize the likelihood of a sinful shepherd, in the end it is the Holy Spirit who chooses and sanctifies the person. The Holy Spirit doesn't wait for the minister to be holy. The Spirit's actions are not contingent on the minister.
While you focused on the sin aspect of the clergy, who are human, the point here is that the Holy Spirit isn't tied up to the limitations of humanity, which includes sin, aging/health, and death.
[quote author=Biboboy link=topic=14265.msg163405#msg163405 date=1361289593] While you focused on the sin aspect of the clergy, who are human, the point here is that the Holy Spirit isn't tied up to the limitations of humanity, which includes sin, aging/health, resignation and death.
I complemented your last statement to apply it to the issue at hand.
I forgive you. It was a simple question, and you felt the need to be defensive (as is often)
Anyway, I'm not calling for a united church, but if you feel something is wrong with papal resignation, please explain why. I should warn you, the word, "feminism" translates to me "do not read the rest of my post, it is just me babbling." And I guess Rick Warren would be proud of someone so violently opposed to him that I tried to buy all his books from my church library to stop people from buying them lol.
I am not a feminist or psychobabble. I am simply speaking about the right of a clerical rank to retire from pastoral responsibility for human reason. As for you, you are a little too tied up in your fairy tale world of misogyny and schizophrenia to make a coherent point.
God help you.
Hi RO,
Thesis: RC developmental theology of ___________________ is not Apostolic Orthodox Truth. Antithesis: You are a schizophrenic misogynist. (LIE) Synthesis: Just close your eyes, hold your nose and dance with anybody. King David danced.
I wonder what you think of Isaac the Syrian who retired from being Bishop of Nneveh? In the Orthodox Church, we have St. Theophan the Recluse who retired from pastoral ability to retreat in prayer? In the British Orthodox Church, Father Micheal Robinson has retired from pastoral responsibility. Abouna Antonios Amin, a famed Coptic Orthodox priest had retired from pastoral ability. These are more modern examples.
The Holy Spirit certainly does not stop doing his job! But man's weakness does not always allow him to work the will of the Holy Spirit. The humility is to know what one is failing, and that the failures of one person's health should not effect the church.
I don't know how it could be fabrication, brother, since the canons of the church do not forbid it, and it has been a commonality in the past. I will look for better sources now, and please give me a little time.
Pray for me, brother,
Ray
Hi again RO,
Thesis: RC developmental theology of ___________________ is not Apostolic Orthodox Truth. Antithesis: It has been a commonality in the past. (Really???) Synthesis: Just to be safe, wear steel toed shoes. They trample on the Word of God. You may be next.
I think you have to take Rick's Purpose Driven Training Course to keep your agenda better concealed. Does every Purpose end in ecumenism? Nothing new here. Everything ends in ecumenism. Maybe even the World. Find verses you like. Use each verse to define ecumenism. You can recite your entire new ecumenical bible, in a word: ecumenism. It means whatever you choose, or don't choose, we are all in unity.
I live under the commandment to love my neighbour as myself. So I will love irishpilgrim as much as I love you Ray and both as much as my love has come from my love of God.
If I do lie to myself. It is this: That I try to be positive when the situation is negative; That I love when the situation is of contempt; That I try to be tolerant when the situation is intolerant. From sin comes self-pity and that I will search for any self-pity that are in my words.
I find that pride is not good in any dispute in that one side will not listen to the other. I would not let pride decide what is accepable and what is not but that we love one another and from this if I did not agree with someone then that I would silence myself until the remission of another sin came about and not to make it worse by my own defence.
I think our recent discussion does have something to do with the Pope of Rome. That like the catholics, and the Pope in what just happened with him, that they do do things in a secrecy. But what it is a brother covering the sin of another brother. But covering sin takes alot of discernment in which the catholic church has shown a certain lack of discernment and so fallen foul of those outside of their church.
To love someone does not mean to justify his babbling. If it is, then Christ should have allowed the pharisees to continue spewing their filth. If you love, then good on you, and it is a blessed virtue. But to justify the meaningless babbling of this guy is a straight slap in the face to God.
This is not a matter of pride. It's a matter of making a coherent statement. Once Irishpiligrim makes one, though I may disagree with it, I will subside.
I think you are gravely mistaken, and I think that your love has entered into a realm of self deciet. But hey, if you think IP has something to offer to the church, go ahead and promote it. Others, such as myself, will be present to ask a simple question, "What is your point."
Discuss in currently off topic, so I'll leave this thread to IP and his mysoginy.
Gentlemen, enough with the name-calling; show kindness to one another. There are people from all walks of life observing these forums. Believers and non-believers; those who are weak in the faith and those who are here to learn something.
[quote author=Orthodoxy link=topic=14265.msg163436#msg163436 date=1361406610] Gentlemen, enough with the name-calling; show kindness to one another. There are people from all walks of life observing these forums. Believers and non-believers; those who are weak in the faith and those who are here to learn something.
I agree. The point I was trying to make does concern love in that it is forgiving and does have a purpose. God is love.
Grow up, get an education, and find a psychiatrist. I truly think you are insane (I'm not being colorful with language)
Joshua, lying to yourself is as big a sin as lying to others. Don't do it.
Ray
[quote author=ReturnOrthodoxy link=topic=14265.msg163435#msg163435 date=1361404290] To love someone does not mean to justify his babbling. If it is, then Christ should have allowed the pharisees to continue spewing their filth. If you love, then good on you, and it is a blessed virtue. But to justify the meaningless babbling of this guy is a straight slap in the face to God.
This is not a matter of pride. It's a matter of making a coherent statement. Once Irishpiligrim makes one, though I may disagree with it, I will subside.
I think you are gravely mistaken, and I think that your love has entered into a realm of self deciet. But hey, if you think IP has something to offer to the church, go ahead and promote it. Others, such as myself, will be present to ask a simple question, "What is your point."
Discuss in currently off topic, so I'll leave this thread to IP and his mysoginy.
Ray
RO,
Did I just see your conscience, shame, or pride? I came back to congratulate you on a masterpiece antithesis diatribe. What happened to it? I only have the memory of it now, but it's unapologetic shamelessly false and irrational defamations fully convinced me of the obvious level of your incredibility in all of the subjects that you raised [feminism, freudianism, ecumenism, RC Papism, education, phariseeism, self-deceit, psychiatry, lying (to yourself and others), sin, assaulting God, spewing filth, insanity (self-analysis?), colorful language, being defensive, babbling. misogyny and schizophrenia, RC developmental theology, etc.]. I'm convinced, you've shown us that you match Rem's level of unapologetic unsupported fabricated defamations and general incredibility. Seemingly for the same heretical purpose, self-defined innovative ecumenical "theology." Grope onward, together, through the fog.
I decided, long ago, not to take any RC action or teaching seriously. A contradictory action, teaching, propaganda will replace it soon enough. I'll not be surprised by the inevitable eventual series of contradictions regarding the papal "resignation." Nor do I care, as you obviously do. Some issue to waste all of that venom on. Nice show, though. I appreciate it. Thank you.
Comments
Are you saying God's grace does not come to us through the sacrements via the Holy Spirit?
The same holds with ordinations. While we try to use an electoral process to minimize the likelihood of a sinful shepherd, in the end it is the Holy Spirit who chooses and sanctifies the person. The Holy Spirit doesn't wait for the minister to be holy. The Spirit's actions are not contingent on the minister.
Is this correct Biboboy?
While you focused on the sin aspect of the clergy, who are human, the point here is that the Holy Spirit isn't tied up to the limitations of humanity, which includes sin, aging/health, and death.
While you focused on the sin aspect of the clergy, who are human, the point here is that the Holy Spirit isn't tied up to the limitations of humanity, which includes sin, aging/health, resignation and death.
I complemented your last statement to apply it to the issue at hand.
Thank you Remnkemi and Biboboy. The was a great explaination. God bless.
Lol, IP,
I forgive you. It was a simple question, and you felt the need to be defensive (as is often)
Anyway, I'm not calling for a united church, but if you feel something is wrong with papal resignation, please explain why. I should warn you, the word, "feminism" translates to me "do not read the rest of my post, it is just me babbling." And I guess Rick Warren would be proud of someone so violently opposed to him that I tried to buy all his books from my church library to stop people from buying them lol.
I am not a feminist or psychobabble. I am simply speaking about the right of a clerical rank to retire from pastoral responsibility for human reason. As for you, you are a little too tied up in your fairy tale world of misogyny and schizophrenia to make a coherent point.
God help you.
Hi RO,
Thesis: RC developmental theology of ___________________ is not Apostolic Orthodox Truth.
Antithesis: You are a schizophrenic misogynist. (LIE)
Synthesis: Just close your eyes, hold your nose and dance with anybody. King David danced.
[quote author=ReturnOrthodoxy link=topic=14265.msg163347#msg163347 date=1361083245]
Hey IP,
I wonder what you think of Isaac the Syrian who retired from being Bishop of Nneveh? In the Orthodox Church, we have St. Theophan the Recluse who retired from pastoral ability to retreat in prayer? In the British Orthodox Church, Father Micheal Robinson has retired from pastoral responsibility. Abouna Antonios Amin, a famed Coptic Orthodox priest had retired from pastoral ability. These are more modern examples.
The Holy Spirit certainly does not stop doing his job! But man's weakness does not always allow him to work the will of the Holy Spirit. The humility is to know what one is failing, and that the failures of one person's health should not effect the church.
I don't know how it could be fabrication, brother, since the canons of the church do not forbid it, and it has been a commonality in the past. I will look for better sources now, and please give me a little time.
Pray for me, brother,
Ray
Hi again RO,
Thesis: RC developmental theology of ___________________ is not Apostolic Orthodox Truth.
Antithesis: It has been a commonality in the past. (Really???)
Synthesis: Just to be safe, wear steel toed shoes. They trample on the Word of God. You may be next.
I think you have to take Rick's Purpose Driven Training Course to keep your agenda better concealed. Does every Purpose end in ecumenism? Nothing new here. Everything ends in ecumenism. Maybe even the World. Find verses you like. Use each verse to define ecumenism. You can recite your entire new ecumenical bible, in a word: ecumenism. It means whatever you choose, or don't choose, we are all in unity.
Grow up, get an education, and find a psychiatrist. I truly think you are insane (I'm not being colorful with language)
Joshua, lying to yourself is as big a sin as lying to others. Don't do it.
Ray
I live under the commandment to love my neighbour as myself. So I will love irishpilgrim as much as I love you Ray and both as much as my love has come from my love of God.
If I do lie to myself. It is this: That I try to be positive when the situation is negative; That I love when the situation is of contempt; That I try to be tolerant when the situation is intolerant. From sin comes self-pity and that I will search for any self-pity that are in my words.
I find that pride is not good in any dispute in that one side will not listen to the other. I would not let pride decide what is accepable and what is not but that we love one another and from this if I did not agree with someone then that I would silence myself until the remission of another sin came about and not to make it worse by my own defence.
I think our recent discussion does have something to do with the Pope of Rome. That like the catholics, and the Pope in what just happened with him, that they do do things in a secrecy. But what it is a brother covering the sin of another brother. But covering sin takes alot of discernment in which the catholic church has shown a certain lack of discernment and so fallen foul of those outside of their church.
This is not a matter of pride. It's a matter of making a coherent statement. Once Irishpiligrim makes one, though I may disagree with it, I will subside.
I think you are gravely mistaken, and I think that your love has entered into a realm of self deciet. But hey, if you think IP has something to offer to the church, go ahead and promote it. Others, such as myself, will be present to ask a simple question, "What is your point."
Discuss in currently off topic, so I'll leave this thread to IP and his mysoginy.
Ray
[quote author=Orthodoxy link=topic=14265.msg163436#msg163436 date=1361406610]
Gentlemen, enough with the name-calling; show kindness to one another. There are people from all walks of life observing these forums. Believers and non-believers; those who are weak in the faith and those who are here to learn something.
I agree. The point I was trying to make does concern love in that it is forgiving and does have a purpose. God is love.
Irishpilgrim,
Grow up, get an education, and find a psychiatrist. I truly think you are insane (I'm not being colorful with language)
Joshua, lying to yourself is as big a sin as lying to others. Don't do it.
Ray
[quote author=ReturnOrthodoxy link=topic=14265.msg163435#msg163435 date=1361404290]
To love someone does not mean to justify his babbling. If it is, then Christ should have allowed the pharisees to continue spewing their filth. If you love, then good on you, and it is a blessed virtue. But to justify the meaningless babbling of this guy is a straight slap in the face to God.
This is not a matter of pride. It's a matter of making a coherent statement. Once Irishpiligrim makes one, though I may disagree with it, I will subside.
I think you are gravely mistaken, and I think that your love has entered into a realm of self deciet. But hey, if you think IP has something to offer to the church, go ahead and promote it. Others, such as myself, will be present to ask a simple question, "What is your point."
Discuss in currently off topic, so I'll leave this thread to IP and his mysoginy.
Ray
RO,
Did I just see your conscience, shame, or pride? I came back to congratulate you on a masterpiece antithesis diatribe. What happened to it? I only have the memory of it now, but it's unapologetic shamelessly false and irrational defamations fully convinced me of the obvious level of your incredibility in all of the subjects that you raised [feminism, freudianism, ecumenism, RC Papism, education, phariseeism, self-deceit, psychiatry, lying (to yourself and others), sin, assaulting God, spewing filth, insanity (self-analysis?), colorful language, being defensive, babbling. misogyny and schizophrenia, RC developmental theology, etc.]. I'm convinced, you've shown us that you match Rem's level of unapologetic unsupported fabricated defamations and general incredibility. Seemingly for the same heretical purpose, self-defined innovative ecumenical "theology." Grope onward, together, through the fog.
I decided, long ago, not to take any RC action or teaching seriously. A contradictory action, teaching, propaganda will replace it soon enough. I'll not be surprised by the inevitable eventual series of contradictions regarding the papal "resignation." Nor do I care, as you obviously do. Some issue to waste all of that venom on. Nice show, though. I appreciate it. Thank you.
I din't readt your last message. Keep smiling.
Everyone else, have yourself, a merry little Christmas.
Raymond Melika