I just wanted to mention that the Quran does NOT hate on Jews and Christians and any good person.
I would like to Quote three verses from the Quran.
[5:69] Surely, those who Believe, those who are Jewish, the Sabians, and the Christians; any of them who (1) believe in GOD and (2) believe in the Last Day, and (3) lead a righteous life, have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve..
[3:199] And there are, certainly, among the People of the Book, those who believe in Allah, in the revelation to you, and in the revelation to them, bowing in humility to Allah. They will not sell the Signs of Allah for a miserable gain! For them is a reward with their Lord, and Allah is swift in account.
[3:113-115] They are not [all] the same; among the People of the Scripture is a community standing [in obedience], reciting the verses of Allah during periods of the night and prostrating [in prayer]. They believe in Allah and the Last Day, and they enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong and hasten to good deeds. And those are among the righteous. And whatever good they do - never will it be removed from them. And Allah is Knowing of the righteous.
I think the problem with the islamic world may lay in that Nasser gave it a political edge in his attempt to get rid of the colonialism from the middle east. The jews the british, who let them in, and others who came, putting their politics into the countries they governed. Nasser galvanised the muslims against this colonialism, even using weapons from athiest soviet union. The Islamic world in some parts still fight politically. But if you have a letter that says to get back to what Islam is truely about namely more peaceful, then good. May God guide your efforts.
Is the muslim world still fighting colonialism? If so, then they will always be politically minded.
[quote author=Altair91 link=topic=14240.msg163194#msg163194 date=1360225420] THIS IS TO EVERYBODY
I just wanted to mention that the Quran does NOT hate on Jews and Christians and any good person.
I would like to Quote three verses from the Quran.
[5:69] Surely, those who Believe, those who are Jewish, the Sabians, and the Christians; any of them who (1) believe in GOD and (2) believe in the Last Day, and (3) lead a righteous life, have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve..
[3:199] And there are, certainly, among the People of the Book, those who believe in Allah, in the revelation to you, and in the revelation to them, bowing in humility to Allah. They will not sell the Signs of Allah for a miserable gain! For them is a reward with their Lord, and Allah is swift in account.
[3:113-115] They are not [all] the same; among the People of the Scripture is a community standing [in obedience], reciting the verses of Allah during periods of the night and prostrating [in prayer]. They believe in Allah and the Last Day, and they enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong and hasten to good deeds. And those are among the righteous. And whatever good they do - never will it be removed from them. And Allah is Knowing of the righteous.
I don't want you to get the false impression that we are saying Islam is evil because we just hate Islam for the sake of it. I don't think there's anyone here who doesn't want an Egypt and a Middle East where Christians, Muslims and Jews live side by side in peace. We all know the Quran has verses that promote that but it also has verses that promote terrorizing non-Muslims. Now you say these verses are out-of-context and I am ready to take your word for it. Unfortunately, you're trying to convince the wrong people. We are ready to accept that Islam is peaceful but Muslims have to prove it first by being peaceful people. You need to convince your fellow Muslims that Islam is about peace. But when we are denied jobs, forced to flee our country, our Churches are being burned, our sisters/daughters/wives raped and kidnapped by people claiming to act in the name of Islam and quoting the very verses you say are taken out of context, then we have no choice but to blame Islam and these verses.
@ Islam Doesnt promote terrorizing other non-muslims read my reply to Remnkemi.
And you are right muslims should be more pro-active and actually start following their religion.But lets remind ourselves.From what I've noticed , wherever Muslims are being violent are in countries that are poor and the economy sucks. E.g Egypt. You should look United Arab Emirates. A rich Arab Gulf and Shariah Compliant country.And best yet is that there are Coptic Christians living there to.The UAE is very tolerant with other peoples of faith and its a Sharia Country.
Theres no debate that the majority of Copts hate Islam,maybe not here but out there.I cant blame Copts for having negative views on Islam, can you blame a Palestinian for having negative views on Jews and Judaism ? of course not.Copts are educated , so they should be smart enough to know the difference between People who want to kill others for no reason and people who want a perfect Utopia for all.
[quote author=Altair91 link=topic=14240.msg163199#msg163199 date=1360278163] And you are right muslims should be more pro-active and actually start following their religion.
They are: these are called Salafists! And apparently, you are scared of them from coming into power. Why? What scares you about them? For me, they are not just muslims, but they are good muslims, obeying and living according to every letter in the quran.
But lets remind ourselves.From what I've noticed , wherever Muslims are being violent are in countries that are poor and the economy sucks. E.g Egypt. You should look United Arab Emirates. A rich Arab Gulf and Shariah Compliant country.And best yet is that there are Coptic Christians living there to.The UAE is very tolerant with other peoples of faith and its a Sharia Country.
That's the only example you have? France has a substantial muslim population. According to the latest statistics, more than 80% of all inmates (criminals) in both Denmark and France are muslim.
If this % of Coptic Christians were criminals in Egypt, you'd have banned Christianity.
Why is that? These are rich countries? And those who are not criminals, want to see France evolve into an Islamic state.
Theres no debate that the majority of Copts hate Islam,maybe not here but out there.I cant blame Copts for having negative views on Islam, can you blame a Palestinian for having negative views on Jews and Judaism ? of course not.Copts are educated , so they should be smart enough to know the difference between People who want to kill others for no reason and people who want a perfect Utopia for all.
I think you need to discover the difference between you and a salafist. Go to a salafist website and ask them if your version of Islam is different than theirs? One of you has the incorrect interpretation. I don't care which one it is, but people like you scare me.
We are constantly attacked by salafists, and then a muslim like u comes along and tells us that they (the salafists) are not the real version of Islam.
That's really great to hear that. You want us to believe that your version of Islam is the right version?
You can argue with me and say that Christians have also done bad things. But in the name of Christianity? In the Name of Christ? Have they done things in the Name of their God?
The day I see a Christian walking into a mosque and blowing himself up before SAYING THE WORDS "In the Name of the Father , Son and Holy Spirit, One God, Amen." and killing himself and others, I would be the first person to burn the Bible.
Secondly, on another note, concerning women wearing bikinis. I talked about wearing bikinis on a beach, not in the street.
Here is what you wrote:
Women are a jewel to humanity and to her spouse and she should protect her "ornaments" ,If you know what I mean, from the public and only be shown to her husband.
Its very strange you say that. I never looked at it that way. I don't tend to undress a woman in my head if she's wearing a bikini. I HIDE her nudity by my ability to look the other way AT LEAST!
You see, that is the best example i have about Islam:
You hide a woman's body to protect her "ornaments" and ensure its only for her husband. That's great. But that doesn't guarantee anything. It doesn't mean that men will still not lust after her, or she will have desires towards other men, whether she is married or not. So, you hide the problem. You don't address the problem of lust.
In fact, if you have been watching the news - LOOK AT WHAT IS HAPPENING in EGYPT!! LOOK! There has been manifestations against sexual attacks on women!! Wow.. this 80% of muslim population that hide women in niqab's and hijabs still find it hard to respect women???!! AFTER ALL THIS??
See, in Christianity, its not her body that is the problem that needs to be covered, its MY EYE. there is something wrong with my eye, or the way I look at women that needs to be addressed. The problem of lust doesn't come from a women being born a woman and being attractive... the problem comes from man's heart.
Christianity is SOLELY about the individual's quest for a pure heart that should rid him or her of being trapped in a life that limits you because of your sins.
So by addressing the problems of the heart, you overcome lust. Islam doesn't overcome anything. For muslims to behave as good muslims, all women must cover themselves.
I can find women attractive without the need to lust after them! or fantasize about them!!
I was walking to take the metro once in Paris. As I walked down the stairs, this lady who appeared to be Moroccan or Algerian, was walking next to me, but she was only wearing only a long jumper.. no skirt.
It was STUPID of her. That's true.
I walked faster and tried to avoid her because I was simply embarrassed to be there. I mean, she was literally naked, and seeking attention.
Anyway, I am standing there on the platform, and she comes and stands next to me.
I get on the train and she gets on and sits down near the door. I decided to sit far away at the back of her - REALLY far, so I only see her hair, but I just wanted to see/look at who would be looking at her. I was really laughing to myself, because she was SO TALL, and was just wearing a jumper.
NO ONE LOOKED!
Men came on the train, women came on.. and NO ONE EVEN turned their heads. No one bothered looking at her.
The only person who looked was a french lady and I can see she was shocked.. she could see that I could see her and I smiled to her. She looked at me as if to say "IS THIS WOMAN CRAZY?" with her face. lol..
But what amazed me was this: the humility of the French people on that day that hid her nakedness with their humility.
Does my God give me a chance to be an adult and hide the nakedness of others by my humility also?? Or does he want for me strict laws so he treats me like a kid because I have no self control???
One of the fruits of being a Christian IS SELF control. And frankly, I pride myself in the fact that this fruit that is given to us is extremely useful as with it is the ability to hide people's mistakes or nakedness with patience and virtue. You are FORCING a woman to be virtuous in islam, in Christianity, our God treats us as if we are already and gives us endless chances to be adults that he expects us to be BY OUR FREE will!
Sure, it is stupid for a woman to behave this way - but look at what your military did to female protesters in Egypt with forced virginity tests?? HOW DISGUSTING!???
Were not all the women there wearing Hijabs??? THey were YOUR women! The muslim lady wearing a niqab that was dragged in the street of egypt and unclothed by the police - what could have been asked of her MORE than that??
You cannot argue and tell me that those men who did that to her were not good muslims - because Islam doesn't depend on the man being noble, it depends, AS YOU SAID, on the woman covering herself. If she covers herself then she ought to be respected, and IT STILL DOESNT WORK!!!!
[quote author=pharoh123 link=topic=14240.msg163198#msg163198 date=1360276918] Unfortunately, you're trying to convince the wrong people. We are ready to accept that Islam is peaceful but Muslims have to prove it first by being peaceful people. You need to convince your fellow Muslims that Islam is about peace. But when we are denied jobs, forced to flee our country, our Churches are being burned, our sisters/daughters/wives raped and kidnapped by people claiming to act in the name of Islam and quoting the very verses you say are taken out of context, then we have no choice but to blame Islam and these verses.
Thank you Pharaoh. This is what I meant when I said the Mt Sinai Covenant has lost credibility. While Mohammed may have had the intention to protect Christians, his intentions and Quaranic attitudes mean nothing in the light of the crimes against innocent people. Actions speak louder than words. If Islam truly is a religion of peace, then dissident Muslims and Muslim groups need to learn it before trying to convince non-Muslims
[quote author=Altair91 link=topic=14240.msg163199#msg163199 date=1360278163] @ Islam Doesnt promote terrorizing other non-muslims read my reply to Remnkemi. I will respond later.
And you are right muslims should be more pro-active and actually start following their religion.
I'm glad you can admit this. I hope this sparks a similar response to those who perpetrate crimes against innocent people.
But lets remind ourselves.From what I've noticed , wherever Muslims are being violent are in countries that are poor and the economy sucks. E.g Egypt. You should look United Arab Emirates. A rich Arab Gulf and Shariah Compliant country.And best yet is that there are Coptic Christians living there to.The UAE is very tolerant with other peoples of faith and its a Sharia Country.
This is part of the problem. There is never, ever, ever any justification for mass genocide, mass discrimination, mass rape, mass kidnaping and mass violence against innocent people. We can't use the economy or the economic vitality of specific countries to justify crime. Ever. This type of false rationalization was specifically used by Hitler to gain control of Germany. Tolerance is not a function of economic prosperity. It is a function of mutual respect and common decency first for each individual and for communities that are different in some way. Even in the worst economic situations, we need to help each other instead of exterminating the competition.
Theres no debate that the majority of Copts hate Islam,maybe not here but out there.I cant blame Copts for having negative views on Islam, can you blame a Palestinian for having negative views on Jews and Judaism ? of course not.Copts are educated , so they should be smart enough to know the difference between People who want to kill others for no reason and people who want a perfect Utopia for all.
I don't agree. Palestinians are justified for having negative views on Jews and Judaism only if acts of violence are documented and verified. Palestinians are not justified for negative views simply because they don't like Jews. Copts are not justified for hating Muslims simply because Muslims are not Copts. And since these massive crimes against Copts done by Muslims are done in the name of Islam, Muslims are not justified to claim Copts unfairly hate Islam.
There were will never be any perfect utopia if there are people who kill for no reason in the name of Islam. Get rid of them first, then we can talk about utopia. Don't expect us to turn a blind eye on violence in the name of intellectualism. Turning a blind eye to unjustified violence would be an act of ignorance.
@Zoxsasi I will respond to you and everyone else soon.
Although Im a little concerned when I read in your post ..."Your Military" what do you mean by that ? Just so you know I dont live in Egypt and have not been there in years.
If you are not aware, the military police or I think it was just the police in general, performed virginity tests on female protesters. They carried out these tests on many muslim women to see whether they were virgins or not.
In all fairness Altair doesn't own the Egyptian military, doesn't run the military, holds no military rank, probably does not approve of virginity tests whether he knew about it or not and whether it was performed by the military or the police, and doesn't believe in the political maneuvering of Islamic extremist (as far as I can gather from his posts).
He has made it clear that Muslim terrorism is anti-Islamic. He has made it clear that the general Muslim population doesn't want to see the annihilation of Copts or approve of crimes. (Even though I gave some evidence refuting this claim)
The one thing he wants us from us is to separate fanatical, criminal violence perpetrated by Islamic dissident groups from devout Muslims who want to express love and intellectual discussion with Christians as they interpret comes from their Islamic faith. I think this is not only a reasonable request but a very important exercise we need to continually encourage if we are to have any peaceful progress.
I dont own the military and I find all of its actions ,including the virginity tests,extremely stupid.Why do you associate what the military's actions with Islam ? There was a video of an American soldier throwing an Iraqi puppy off a cliff.If I were to play in your game, then christianity must be a violent religion because he was a christian and he represents ALL christians in the world.Sorry to say but "YOUR" military has full of idiots.But of course I will not think like that , I would if i had your mentality.
And I cant speak arabic so I dont know what the video was saying.
I think your question on the difference of the catholic church and ours is about differences under one so called religion. I think the different veiw on the way we veiw sin. Theirs is original sin while ours is ancestral sin. Theirs is more guilt driven while ours is more healing driven.
[quote author=Joshuaa link=topic=14240.msg163229#msg163229 date=1360519054] I'm still saying religion and politics don't mix.
You're right, religion and politics don't mix.
For anyone who understands arabic, here is a video of a Debate about religion and politics in Egypt between Dr. Bassem Youssef (Surgeon and Liberal Satirist) and Dr Nageh Ibrahim (head of el Gama3a el Islamia): Both debaters are Muslims. It's a very good discussion, and tackles some of the issues discussed here. You should all watch it.
The point I was making about the soul and spirit also. That in arabic the soul is femine and the spirit masculine, is that, then the soul internalisers the spirit, so it is important, what the spirit is that is going into the soul.
Another point, is that when we pray, we are talking to God and when we read the bible, it is listening to God. I guess you could apply that to the way you feel to the koran. Then we argue over what we are listening to. So within Islam as well as christianity, people have being selective about what they listen to according to their situation and have not sought the peace offered by both.
[quote author=Altair91 link=topic=14240.msg163227#msg163227 date=1360507585] I dont own the military and I find all of its actions ,including the virginity tests,extremely stupid.Why do you associate what the military's actions with Islam ? There was a video of an American soldier throwing an Iraqi puppy off a cliff.If I were to play in your game, then christianity must be a violent religion because he was a christian and he represents ALL christians in the world.Sorry to say but "YOUR" military has full of idiots.But of course I will not think like that , I would if i had your mentality.
I understand what you were trying to say, but your comparison is inaccurate. The US military and the US government is legally obligated to separate any religion from politics. By merit of the doctrine of separation of Church and State, the actions of the State cannot be legally and ethical a result of Christianity. On the other hand, by law, Islamic law is the fundamental core of the Egyptian constitution. In Egypt, there cannot be a separation of religion and state. Therefore, the actions of the state - if motivated and done in the name of religion - is indirectly caused by Islam.
I have never heard of any American soldier committing a crime, like throwing an Iraqi animal off a cliff, in the name of Trinity. This individual is responsible for his own actions and religion and culture is somewhat responsible. Likewise, a Muslim terrorist who commits a crime in the name of Allah is responsible for his own actions but the religion bears some responsibility. The only thing is we're pointing the finger at the wrong "religions". It's not Christianity or Islam that condones crimes. It is hate and racism. See the movie "The Kingdom" with Jamie Foxx.
They are: these are called Salafists! And apparently, you are scared of them from coming into power. Why? What scares you about them? For me, they are not just muslims, but they are good muslims, obeying and living according to every letter in the quran.
Sure they are and apparently you would like them to come to power.You might like their politics but I dont because many of them are taking the religion too extreme and the Prophet said never take this religion to the extreme.
That's the only example you have? France has a substantial muslim population. According to the latest statistics, more than 80% of all inmates (criminals) in both Denmark and France are muslim.
If this % of Coptic Christians were criminals in Egypt, you'd have banned Christianity.
Why is that? These are rich countries? And those who are not criminals, want to see France evolve into an Islamic state.
When I mentioned rich countries I meant rich or at least medium income MUSLIM countries.And to address Muslims in Europe.Europe has the worst integration system I know of.Because of European society muslims there tend to isolate themselves from the rest.Well that I partly blame muslims to but really its European system thats really causing the divide.Muslims in The US are among the prosperous in the nation.Why ? its because america has a system set in place where anyone of any faiths or race can integrate nicely.
I think you need to discover the difference between you and a salafist. Go to a salafist website and ask them if your version of Islam is different than theirs? One of you has the incorrect interpretation. I don't care which one it is, but people like you scare me.
We are constantly attacked by salafists, and then a muslim like u comes along and tells us that they (the salafists) are not the real version of Islam.
That's really great to hear that. You want us to believe that your version of Islam is the right version?
Islam is a peaceful religion and orders its followers to respect everyone regardless of creed or race.When muslims kill in the name of religion are in the wrong, I hope you can believe that.Killing innocents is not a part of Islam.Many muslims get upset with other muslims when they kill for no reason.I did my best to explain and show all of you that Islam does not condone violence.I understand action speaks louder than words but what would you have me do ?Im just a college student with no political power and same can be said for muslims everywhere.Its up to the MB to settle the coptic problem.You can believe me if you want or you dont have to.I dont benefit or dis-benefit brother.
You can argue with me and say that Christians have also done bad things. But in the name of Christianity? In the Name of Christ? Have they done things in the Name of their God?
The day I see a Christian walking into a mosque and blowing himself up before SAYING THE WORDS "In the Name of the Father , Son and Holy Spirit, One God, Amen." and killing himself and others, I would be the first person to burn the Bible.
"yet there seems little recognition that the very framework of the beliefs owned by the Fascists and Nazis came from their Christian upbringing from church, school, and Christian traditions. The entire anti-Jewish and racial sentiments came not from some new philosophy or unique ideology, but rather from centuries of Christian preaching against the Jews, gypsies, and heretics. This comes especially true for European countries, for the Christian practice of crusades, inquisitions and holy wars occurred in their own backyards"
There have been many crimes committed in the name of christianity.You must research it.
Regarding the hijab.
Why does a nun cover herself ? im sure we can have different opinion on this matter.But we all can agree that when nuns cover themselves its a form of respect between the sister and God.Same with muslim women.Many Women who wear the headscarf wear it because their husbands or fathers told them to.But Many make the decision to wear it on their own.Why they choose to wear it ? some say its personal freedom and others just dont want the stares.
God preaches only moral values to people.Now why would God be ok for women to wear bikinis or tight jeans ?would God be ok for a woman of faith to show a cleavage ? Of course not!Glory be To God.
It would be make sense for God commanding women to cover themselves.Jewish women do it and christian women do it. Are you saying that when If Islam tells women to cover, its wrong ? then I guess what nuns are doing is wrong to.
And those Egyptians who attack Muslim woman who covers herself are sick perverts and I hope they burn in hell.
a little advice to you brother.Whatever happens in Egypt doesnt represent the ENTIRE muslim community.I noticed many coptic christians take Egypt as if its the only muslim country in the world and whatever happens in it , represents Islam.
In many countries muslim women that covers are respected.
I understand what you were trying to say, but your comparison is inaccurate. The US military and the US government is legally obligated to separate any religion from politics. By merit of the doctrine of separation of Church and State, the actions of the State cannot be legally and ethical a result of Christianity. On the other hand, by law, Islamic law is the fundamental core of the Egyptian constitution. In Egypt, there cannot be a separation of religion and state. Therefore, the actions of the state - if motivated and done in the name of religion - is indirectly caused by Islam.
I have never heard of any American soldier committing a crime, like throwing an Iraqi animal off a cliff, in the name of Trinity. This individual is responsible for his own actions and religion and culture is somewhat responsible. Likewise, a Muslim terrorist who commits a crime in the name of Allah is responsible for his own actions but the religion bears some responsibility. The only thing is we're pointing the finger at the wrong "religions". It's not Christianity or Islam that condones crimes. It is hate and racism. See the movie "The Kingdom" with Jamie Foxx.
Same with the egyptian military! But if an egyptian were to throw that puppy.The world would accuse Islam and Portray Muslims in a very negative light, even if that evil act was not religiously motivated.people think that the actions of the Egyptian military was religiously motivated, Why ? its because muslims make the majority of the military.Thats it ? this is how coptic christians think.
I brought the example of the puppy was to show that I shouldnt judge the US MILITARY by the action of one man.
Thank you Pharaoh. This is what I meant when I said the Mt Sinai Covenant has lost credibility. While Mohammed may have had the intention to protect Christians, his intentions and Quaranic attitudes mean nothing in the light of the crimes against innocent people. Actions speak louder than words. If Islam truly is a religion of peace, then dissident Muslims and Muslim groups need to learn it before trying to convince non-Muslims
Theres a saying Islam is perfect but Muslims are not.Islam is a religion of peace but Muslims are straying away from the message.you can either believe that or you dont.I did my best to represent my religion to you all.
By the way did you read my long response to you on page 2 ?
The point I was making about the soul and spirit also. That in arabic the soul is femine and the spirit masculine, is that, then the soul internalisers the spirit, so it is important what the spirit is that is going into the soul.
Another point, is that when we pray, we are talking to God and when we read the bible, it is listening to God. I guess you could apply that to the way you feel to the koran. Then we argue over what we are listening to. So within Islam as well as christianity, people have being selective about what they listen to according to their situation and have not sought the peace offered by both.
God Willing I will forward your question to an Islamic website.What you are asking is probably way beyond me haha.
The point I was making about the soul and spirit also. That in arabic the soul is femine and the spirit masculine, is that, then the soul internalisers the spirit, so it is important what the spirit is that is going into the soul.
Another point, is that when we pray, we are talking to God and when we read the bible, it is listening to God. I guess you could apply that to the way you feel to the koran. Then we argue over what we are listening to. So within Islam as well as christianity, people have being selective about what they listen to according to their situation and have not sought the peace offered by both.
God Willing I will forward your question to an Islamic website.What you are asking is probably way beyond me haha.
Thank you Altair9. Can you give me the answer is well. Because I tend to look at the nature of things and because we are in a spiritual battle. I asked myself what is the nature of the soul and spirit? To me it explains the core of truth.
Glad you came back too. It's good to have you here.
I understand what you were trying to say, but your comparison is inaccurate. The US military and the US government is legally obligated to separate any religion from politics. By merit of the doctrine of separation of Church and State, the actions of the State cannot be legally and ethical a result of Christianity. On the other hand, by law, Islamic law is the fundamental core of the Egyptian constitution. In Egypt, there cannot be a separation of religion and state. Therefore, the actions of the state - if motivated and done in the name of religion - is indirectly caused by Islam.
I have never heard of any American soldier committing a crime, like throwing an Iraqi animal off a cliff, in the name of Trinity. This individual is responsible for his own actions and religion and culture is somewhat responsible. Likewise, a Muslim terrorist who commits a crime in the name of Allah is responsible for his own actions but the religion bears some responsibility. The only thing is we're pointing the finger at the wrong "religions". It's not Christianity or Islam that condones crimes. It is hate and racism. See the movie "The Kingdom" with Jamie Foxx.
Same with the egyptian military! I don't follow. Both the American military and Egyptian military are sworn to defend their respective constitutions. The Egyptian constitution requires Islamic religious law (ie, mandatory religious requirements on the state), the American constitution does the opposite (ie, requires separation of church and state). If the American military does something criminal but legal, it is near impossible to find a causal relationship to Christianity. If the Egyptian military does something criminal but legal, you already have an indirect causal relationship to Islam.
I'll put it this way: 1. Egyptian military enforces Egyptian constitution 2. Egyptian constitution requires Islamic religious law as supreme authority. 3. If Egyptian military does something legal to enforce Egyptian constitution, it is doing so under the protection of Islamic religious law. 4. If said legal action done by the Egyptian military is criminal (or at least unethical), then it is doing it under the protection of Islamic religious law. Therefore, Islamic religious law (which is integral to Islam) allows criminal actions. And you can't say this about the American military and American constitution.
Now I understand you are saying that if there is a legal action that is criminal or unethical, it cannot be protected by Islam. And I think, in theory, you are correct. But since separation of religion and state is forbidden in Islam, and the scenario above shows a causal link between Islam and criminal action, then you are stuck. The only logical rebuttal would require one to prove either (1) the Egyptian military doesn't defend the Egyptian constitution but acts on its own consciousness independent of the Egyptian constitution or (2) the Egyptian constitution inadequately upholds Islamic religious law or (3) even though the Egyptian constitution enforces Islamic religious law, there is an implied separation of religion and state. All three of these response admits that someone is not following laws. The only logical response if all 3 rebuttals are invalid is that Islam is indirectly responsible for the criminal actions in Egypt.
I agree with everything else in your response except your conclusion on how Coptic Christians think. Coptic Christians do not think the actions of the military are religiously linked because the military is predominately Muslim. Coptic Christians think the actions of the military are religiously linked because the Egyptian Constitution and judicial branch of the Egyptian government say so. The degree of responsibility among the Egyptian constitution, the Egyptian government, the Egyptian military, the individuals who commit the crimes and Islam is a matter of interpretation. Claiming no responsibility on the part of Islam concerning the actions of these Egyptian parties denies the fundamental core of Islamic religious requirement in Egyptian government.
If I have misunderstood your statements, please forgive me.
I don't follow. Both the American military and Egyptian military are sworn to defend their respective constitutions. The Egyptian constitution requires Islamic religious law (ie, mandatory religious requirements on the state), the American constitution does the opposite (ie, requires separation of church and state). If the American military does something criminal but legal, it is near impossible to find a causal relationship to Christianity. If the Egyptian military does something criminal but legal, you already have an indirect causal relationship to Islam.
I'll put it this way: 1. Egyptian military enforces Egyptian constitution 2. Egyptian constitution requires Islamic religious law as supreme authority. 3. If Egyptian military does something legal to enforce Egyptian constitution, it is doing so under the protection of Islamic religious law. 4. If said legal action done by the Egyptian military is criminal (or at least unethical), then it is doing it under the protection of Islamic religious law. Therefore, Islamic religious law (which is integral to Islam) allows criminal actions. And you can't say this about the American military and American constitution.
Now I understand you are saying that if there is a legal action that is criminal or unethical, it cannot be protected by Islam. And I think, in theory, you are correct. But since separation of religion and state is forbidden in Islam, and the scenario above shows a causal link between Islam and criminal action, then you are stuck. The only logical rebuttal would require one to prove either (1) the Egyptian military doesn't defend the Egyptian constitution but acts on its own consciousness independent of the Egyptian constitution or (2) the Egyptian constitution inadequately upholds Islamic religious law or (3) even though the Egyptian constitution enforces Islamic religious law, there is an implied separation of religion and state. All three of these response admits that someone is not following laws. The only logical response if all 3 rebuttals are invalid is that Islam is indirectly responsible for the criminal actions in Egypt.
I agree with everything else in your response except your conclusion on how Coptic Christians think. Coptic Christians do not think the actions of the military are religiously linked because the military is predominately Muslim. Coptic Christians think the actions of the military are religiously linked because the Egyptian Constitution and judicial branch of the Egyptian government say so. The degree of responsibility among the Egyptian constitution, the Egyptian government, the Egyptian military, the individuals who commit the crimes and Islam is a matter of interpretation. Claiming no responsibility on the part of Islam concerning the actions of these Egyptian parties denies the fundamental core of Islamic religious requirement in Egyptian government.
If I have misunderstood your statements, please forgive me.
Yea america is secular and its crimes are nothing religious. But yet I have met muslims who judge the actions of american soldiers as an "indirect" relationship to christianity just because the soldiers were christians. Copts have the same mentality.
So you are saying that if some crazy egyptian soldier who stray away from its moral codes were to harass a lady , its an indirect relationship to Islam ? what if an Egyptian christian conscript were to do something crazy , its an indirect relationship to Islam ?
When the military does something stupid like killing people senselessly it has nothing to do with Islam.
And I can bet my house if Turkey which is predominately muslim but outright secular were to for some odd reason attack a group of Coptic protesters, no doubt copts will associate this turkish crime with Islam.
And When you say they enforce Sharia law , what are they enforcing ?What aspect of the law are they enforcing ?
It would be make sense for God commanding women to cover themselves.Jewish women do it and christian women do it. Are you saying that when If Islam tells women to cover, its wrong ? then I guess what nuns are doing is wrong to.
I think Altair9, that the ones who don't dress appropriately, are not being spiritual and have the temptation of the sin of adultery. But when it comes to temptation, we veiw and deal with it differently.
yes, when men go to prostitutes and watch pornography, we accept it is the men's fault.
women should not wear bikini, but men should not stare either. it works both ways, if i see a man's butt crack coz his pants are too far down, i have to look away, not whip him for indecent clothing.
The reason I was explaining things in terms of soul and spirit Altair9 is because spirit, being masculine is straight in it's direction. Straight is one term for orthodox. Also, that makes it linear, which means it starts somewhere and finishes. The soul, being feminine, is about full-fillment. So as christians believe we have a covenent with God. It's like a promise. This is it:
Genesis 17:7 " And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you.
So our church is in the lineage of the covenant of Christ, and that is what is being full-filled. A prophet does not change God's covenant, nor does a prophet establish a way for God's people to live.
I posted this question in "Coptic Orthodox Church" But I wasnt getting much to no responses So thought here would a better place.I hope.
My name is Mohamed and I signed-up here to learn more about Coptic Christians.I believe that all the chaos thats happening in Egypt is because of Ignorance from both sides of Egyptian society and of course because of the economy.The best way to shun this ignorance is to build bridges so I thought starting here wouldnt hurt. I have some questions for you guys and I hope you can answer them
1-) Whats the primary difference between Copts and Catholics ? 2-) What is your view of the political climate in Egypt ? And do you see hope for the future under the MB? 3-) Whats the Coptic dress code ? (E.g. Muslims are required to wear modestly and not showy so bikinis are a no no) 4-)Whats your view of Muslims ? whats your view of Islam ? 5-)What have you heard of Islam that you find disturbing ? (Back-up with facts and sources)
You dont have to answer them all!
These are my questions for now Thank You and God Bless!
Welcome Altair9,
Thank you for coming to this forum and giving me an opportunity to learn from your point of view. I think you've defended your beliefs strongly and honestly. I'm from the U.S. and don't speak Arabic either. I've really just heard the U.S. Copt and Fundamentalists' views of Islam. These views have always seemed skewed, and sometimes even blind to me. You've helped me to a more reasonable understanding. I do have a few highly admired Muslim family acquaintances, but I've not discussed their faith beliefs with them. Their lives reflect very well on their beliefs and morals.
Sometime I'd like to read your understandings of faithful family life, beliefs and relationships. I'm especially interested in how the young Muslim immigrant families, and your faith community in general are handling the temptations and divisions offered to young wives with children, by the U.S. divorce industry, to rebel against and divorce their husbands and break-up their family. What would you say that the divorce rate is among the U.S./Western Muslim immigrant community? Do you have any Muslim divorce lawyers/psychologists who specialize in encouraging divorce in your communities? What role in the U.S. or Western Muslim faith community is assigned to the psychiatry/psychology/ counseling industry "professionals?" What is the source or sources of the principles of the Muslim family and gender relationship beliefs? How are these beliefs taught and enforced by the faith community leaders and members?
In response to your first question regarding differences between Copts and Catholics, I'll try to offer some general views. In a general superficial sense, an outsider would not see great differences in general beliefs of Copts and Catholics. We both started from the same precise source 2000 years ago. The same disciples (Apostles) of Jesus Christ took the same teachings of Jesus (none written by Jesus) throughout their amazing world travels. They essentially planted a few seeds, mostly in persecution, of the current national churches to different nations/tribes/races. The Catholic Church descended from the early Apostles who went to Rome, the traditional political world capitol. The Roman Catholic Church (Catholic Church) developed a symbiotic political personality with Roman politics and has at various times assumed national/international political/commercial/military leadership. The Catholic Church has also developed a theology of world christian leadership, which is largely rejected by the remainder of ancient (Coptic/Greek/Russian, for example) and modern (Protestant) Christian Churches. Involvement in civil politics has always been a central activity of the Catholic Church leadership at all levels. The Coptic Church is at the other end of this political spectrum. Copts have enjoyed [since about 50 A.D. (or C.E.)] some periods of political peace, but largely, varying degrees of political persecution. The Copts have never developed a theology of accommodation with politics (beyond the general teachings of peace seeking in the Holy Bible) that I am aware of. So, Copts should never have to feel compelled to justify the general corruption that always accompanies politics. This is an important freedom to me. I've noticed, here, that some Western assimilated Copts have clumsily tried to justify U.S. political and military (probably also commercial) excesses. I don't believe that this is Coptic Church baggage that they are trying to carry.
I visualize, perhaps incorrectly, that the political character of the Catholic Church and Islam have some similarities. Individual Copts may have some political interests and compulsions, but I am not aware of this interest being carried over into general beliefs. Native Eqyptian Copts may have different views in this matter, but I've spent over 20 years close friendship and worship with many U. S. Copts, and I haven't noticed it.
[quote author=Joshuaa link=topic=14240.msg163333#msg163333 date=1360958601] The reason I was explaining things in terms of soul and spirit Altair9 is because spirit, being masculine is straight in it's direction. Straight is one term for orthodox. Also, that makes it linear, which means it starts somewhere and finishes. The soul, being feminine, is about full-fillment. So as christians believe we have a covenent with God. It's like a promise. This is it:
Genesis 17:7 " And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you.
So our church is in the lineage of the covenant of Christ, and that is what is being full-filled. A prophet does not change God's covenant, nor does a prophet establish a way for God's people to live.
I've forwarded your question , the thing is your post not being very understood.What is your question specifically ?
Comments
I just wanted to mention that the Quran does NOT hate on Jews and Christians and any good person.
I would like to Quote three verses from the Quran.
[5:69] Surely, those who Believe, those who are Jewish, the Sabians, and the Christians; any of them who (1) believe in GOD and (2) believe in the Last Day, and (3) lead a righteous life, have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve..
[3:199] And there are, certainly, among the People of the Book, those who believe in Allah, in the revelation to you, and in the revelation to them, bowing in humility to Allah. They will not sell the Signs of Allah for a miserable gain! For them is a reward with their Lord, and Allah is swift in account.
[3:113-115] They are not [all] the same; among the People of the Scripture is a community standing [in obedience], reciting the verses of Allah during periods of the night and prostrating [in prayer]. They believe in Allah and the Last Day, and they enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong and hasten to good deeds. And those are among the righteous. And whatever good they do - never will it be removed from them. And Allah is Knowing of the righteous.
I deleted my post. Wasn't relative and did not make sense.
Thought this youtube debate was a bit interesting though.
I just wonder why it is never a debate between an Orthodox Christian and a Muslim.......guess we are having one now :)
I will explain spirit later.
I think the problem with the islamic world may lay in that Nasser gave it a political edge in his attempt to get rid of the colonialism from the middle east. The jews the british, who let them in, and others who came, putting their politics into the countries they governed. Nasser galvanised the muslims against this colonialism, even using weapons from athiest soviet union. The Islamic world in some parts still fight politically. But if you have a letter that says to get back to what Islam is truely about namely more peaceful, then good. May God guide your efforts.
Is the muslim world still fighting colonialism? If so, then they will always be politically minded.
THIS IS TO EVERYBODY
I just wanted to mention that the Quran does NOT hate on Jews and Christians and any good person.
I would like to Quote three verses from the Quran.
[5:69] Surely, those who Believe, those who are Jewish, the Sabians, and the Christians; any of them who (1) believe in GOD and (2) believe in the Last Day, and (3) lead a righteous life, have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve..
[3:199] And there are, certainly, among the People of the Book, those who believe in Allah, in the revelation to you, and in the revelation to them, bowing in humility to Allah. They will not sell the Signs of Allah for a miserable gain! For them is a reward with their Lord, and Allah is swift in account.
[3:113-115] They are not [all] the same; among the People of the Scripture is a community standing [in obedience], reciting the verses of Allah during periods of the night and prostrating [in prayer]. They believe in Allah and the Last Day, and they enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong and hasten to good deeds. And those are among the righteous. And whatever good they do - never will it be removed from them. And Allah is Knowing of the righteous.
I don't want you to get the false impression that we are saying Islam is evil because we just hate Islam for the sake of it. I don't think there's anyone here who doesn't want an Egypt and a Middle East where Christians, Muslims and Jews live side by side in peace. We all know the Quran has verses that promote that but it also has verses that promote terrorizing non-Muslims. Now you say these verses are out-of-context and I am ready to take your word for it. Unfortunately, you're trying to convince the wrong people. We are ready to accept that Islam is peaceful but Muslims have to prove it first by being peaceful people. You need to convince your fellow Muslims that Islam is about peace. But when we are denied jobs, forced to flee our country, our Churches are being burned, our sisters/daughters/wives raped and kidnapped by people claiming to act in the name of Islam and quoting the very verses you say are taken out of context, then we have no choice but to blame Islam and these verses.
And you are right muslims should be more pro-active and actually start following their religion.But lets remind ourselves.From what I've noticed , wherever Muslims are being violent are in countries that are poor and the economy sucks. E.g Egypt. You should look United Arab Emirates. A rich Arab Gulf and Shariah Compliant country.And best yet is that there are Coptic Christians living there to.The UAE is very tolerant with other peoples of faith and its a Sharia Country.
Theres no debate that the majority of Copts hate Islam,maybe not here but out there.I cant blame Copts for having negative views on Islam, can you blame a Palestinian for having negative views on Jews and Judaism ? of course not.Copts are educated , so they should be smart enough to know the difference between People who want to kill others for no reason and people who want a perfect Utopia for all.
And you are right muslims should be more pro-active and actually start following their religion.
They are: these are called Salafists! And apparently, you are scared of them from coming into power. Why? What scares you about them? For me, they are not just muslims, but they are good muslims, obeying and living according to every letter in the quran. That's the only example you have? France has a substantial muslim population. According to the latest statistics, more than 80% of all inmates (criminals) in both Denmark and France are muslim.
If this % of Coptic Christians were criminals in Egypt, you'd have banned Christianity.
Why is that? These are rich countries? And those who are not criminals, want to see France evolve into an Islamic state. I think you need to discover the difference between you and a salafist. Go to a salafist website and ask them if your version of Islam is different than theirs? One of you has the incorrect interpretation. I don't care which one it is, but people like you scare me.
We are constantly attacked by salafists, and then a muslim like u comes along and tells us that they (the salafists) are not the real version of Islam.
That's really great to hear that. You want us to believe that your version of Islam is the right version?
You can argue with me and say that Christians have also done bad things. But in the name of Christianity? In the Name of Christ? Have they done things in the Name of their God?
The day I see a Christian walking into a mosque and blowing himself up before SAYING THE WORDS "In the Name of the Father , Son and Holy Spirit, One God, Amen." and killing himself and others, I would be the first person to burn the Bible.
Secondly, on another note, concerning women wearing bikinis. I talked about wearing bikinis on a beach, not in the street.
Here is what you wrote: Its very strange you say that. I never looked at it that way. I don't tend to undress a woman in my head if she's wearing a bikini. I HIDE her nudity by my ability to look the other way AT LEAST!
You see, that is the best example i have about Islam:
You hide a woman's body to protect her "ornaments" and ensure its only for her husband. That's great. But that doesn't guarantee anything. It doesn't mean that men will still not lust after her, or she will have desires towards other men, whether she is married or not. So, you hide the problem. You don't address the problem of lust.
In fact, if you have been watching the news - LOOK AT WHAT IS HAPPENING in EGYPT!! LOOK! There has been manifestations against sexual attacks on women!! Wow.. this 80% of muslim population that hide women in niqab's and hijabs still find it hard to respect women???!! AFTER ALL THIS??
See, in Christianity, its not her body that is the problem that needs to be covered, its MY EYE. there is something wrong with my eye, or the way I look at women that needs to be addressed. The problem of lust doesn't come from a women being born a woman and being attractive... the problem comes from man's heart.
Christianity is SOLELY about the individual's quest for a pure heart that should rid him or her of being trapped in a life that limits you because of your sins.
So by addressing the problems of the heart, you overcome lust. Islam doesn't overcome anything. For muslims to behave as good muslims, all women must cover themselves.
I can find women attractive without the need to lust after them! or fantasize about them!!
I was walking to take the metro once in Paris. As I walked down the stairs, this lady who appeared to be Moroccan or Algerian, was walking next to me, but she was only wearing only a long jumper.. no skirt.
It was STUPID of her. That's true.
I walked faster and tried to avoid her because I was simply embarrassed to be there. I mean, she was literally naked, and seeking attention.
Anyway, I am standing there on the platform, and she comes and stands next to me.
I get on the train and she gets on and sits down near the door. I decided to sit far away at the back of her - REALLY far, so I only see her hair, but I just wanted to see/look at who would be looking at her. I was really laughing to myself, because she was SO TALL, and was just wearing a jumper.
NO ONE LOOKED!
Men came on the train, women came on.. and NO ONE EVEN turned their heads. No one bothered looking at her.
The only person who looked was a french lady and I can see she was shocked.. she could see that I could see her and I smiled to her. She looked at me as if to say "IS THIS WOMAN CRAZY?" with her face. lol..
But what amazed me was this: the humility of the French people on that day that hid her nakedness with their humility.
Does my God give me a chance to be an adult and hide the nakedness of others by my humility also?? Or does he want for me strict laws so he treats me like a kid because I have no self control???
One of the fruits of being a Christian IS SELF control. And frankly, I pride myself in the fact that this fruit that is given to us is extremely useful as with it is the ability to hide people's mistakes or nakedness with patience and virtue. You are FORCING a woman to be virtuous in islam, in Christianity, our God treats us as if we are already and gives us endless chances to be adults that he expects us to be BY OUR FREE will!
Sure, it is stupid for a woman to behave this way - but look at what your military did to female protesters in Egypt with forced virginity tests?? HOW DISGUSTING!???
Were not all the women there wearing Hijabs??? THey were YOUR women! The muslim lady wearing a niqab that was dragged in the street of egypt and unclothed by the police - what could have been asked of her MORE than that??
You cannot argue and tell me that those men who did that to her were not good muslims - because Islam doesn't depend on the man being noble, it depends, AS YOU SAID, on the woman covering herself. If she covers herself then she ought to be respected, and IT STILL DOESNT WORK!!!!
Unfortunately, you're trying to convince the wrong people. We are ready to accept that Islam is peaceful but Muslims have to prove it first by being peaceful people. You need to convince your fellow Muslims that Islam is about peace. But when we are denied jobs, forced to flee our country, our Churches are being burned, our sisters/daughters/wives raped and kidnapped by people claiming to act in the name of Islam and quoting the very verses you say are taken out of context, then we have no choice but to blame Islam and these verses.
Thank you Pharaoh. This is what I meant when I said the Mt Sinai Covenant has lost credibility. While Mohammed may have had the intention to protect Christians, his intentions and Quaranic attitudes mean nothing in the light of the crimes against innocent people. Actions speak louder than words. If Islam truly is a religion of peace, then dissident Muslims and Muslim groups need to learn it before trying to convince non-Muslims
@ Islam Doesnt promote terrorizing other non-muslims read my reply to Remnkemi.
I will respond later. I'm glad you can admit this. I hope this sparks a similar response to those who perpetrate crimes against innocent people. This is part of the problem. There is never, ever, ever any justification for mass genocide, mass discrimination, mass rape, mass kidnaping and mass violence against innocent people. We can't use the economy or the economic vitality of specific countries to justify crime. Ever. This type of false rationalization was specifically used by Hitler to gain control of Germany. Tolerance is not a function of economic prosperity. It is a function of mutual respect and common decency first for each individual and for communities that are different in some way. Even in the worst economic situations, we need to help each other instead of exterminating the competition. I don't agree. Palestinians are justified for having negative views on Jews and Judaism only if acts of violence are documented and verified. Palestinians are not justified for negative views simply because they don't like Jews. Copts are not justified for hating Muslims simply because Muslims are not Copts. And since these massive crimes against Copts done by Muslims are done in the name of Islam, Muslims are not justified to claim Copts unfairly hate Islam.
There were will never be any perfect utopia if there are people who kill for no reason in the name of Islam. Get rid of them first, then we can talk about utopia. Don't expect us to turn a blind eye on violence in the name of intellectualism. Turning a blind eye to unjustified violence would be an act of ignorance.
Thank you for the discussion.
Although Im a little concerned when I read in your post ..."Your Military" what do you mean by that ? Just so you know I dont live in Egypt and have not been there in years.
If you are not aware, the military police or I think it was just the police in general, performed virginity tests on female protesters. They carried out these tests on many muslim women to see whether they were virgins or not.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1369259/Egypt-protests-Women-forced-virginity-checks-arrests-Tahir-Square.html#axzz2JsWPKDX8
Are you not aware of this?
Are u at least aware of this?? This is how they treated a woman wearing a niqab: Your Egyptian Military:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/egypt/8969032/Egypts-military-expresses-strong-regret-for-beating-of-female-protester.html
Finally, here's also what I think of Islam, and apparently what other people think of it also:
In all fairness Altair doesn't own the Egyptian military, doesn't run the military, holds no military rank, probably does not approve of virginity tests whether he knew about it or not and whether it was performed by the military or the police, and doesn't believe in the political maneuvering of Islamic extremist (as far as I can gather from his posts).
He has made it clear that Muslim terrorism is anti-Islamic. He has made it clear that the general Muslim population doesn't want to see the annihilation of Copts or approve of crimes. (Even though I gave some evidence refuting this claim)
The one thing he wants us from us is to separate fanatical, criminal violence perpetrated by Islamic dissident groups from devout Muslims who want to express love and intellectual discussion with Christians as they interpret comes from their Islamic faith. I think this is not only a reasonable request but a very important exercise we need to continually encourage if we are to have any peaceful progress.
Thanks for standing for me.
I dont own the military and I find all of its actions ,including the virginity tests,extremely stupid.Why do you associate what the military's actions with Islam ? There was a video of an American soldier throwing an Iraqi puppy off a cliff.If I were to play in your game, then christianity must be a violent religion because he was a christian and he represents ALL christians in the world.Sorry to say but "YOUR" military has full of idiots.But of course I will not think like that , I would if i had your mentality.
And I cant speak arabic so I dont know what the video was saying.
I'm still saying religion and politics don't mix.
I think your question on the difference of the catholic church and ours is about differences under
one so called religion. I think the different veiw on the way we veiw sin. Theirs is original sin while
ours is ancestral sin. Theirs is more guilt driven while ours is more healing driven.
I'm still saying religion and politics don't mix.
You're right, religion and politics don't mix.
For anyone who understands arabic, here is a video of a Debate about religion and politics in Egypt between Dr. Bassem Youssef (Surgeon and Liberal Satirist) and Dr Nageh Ibrahim (head of el Gama3a el Islamia):
Both debaters are Muslims. It's a very good discussion, and tackles some of the issues discussed here. You should all watch it.
Another point, is that when we pray, we are talking to God and when we read the bible, it is listening
to God. I guess you could apply that to the way you feel to the koran.
Then we argue over what we are listening to. So within Islam as well as christianity, people have
being selective about what they listen to according to their situation and have not sought the peace
offered by both.
I dont own the military and I find all of its actions ,including the virginity tests,extremely stupid.Why do you associate what the military's actions with Islam ? There was a video of an American soldier throwing an Iraqi puppy off a cliff.If I were to play in your game, then christianity must be a violent religion because he was a christian and he represents ALL christians in the world.Sorry to say but "YOUR" military has full of idiots.But of course I will not think like that , I would if i had your mentality.
I understand what you were trying to say, but your comparison is inaccurate. The US military and the US government is legally obligated to separate any religion from politics. By merit of the doctrine of separation of Church and State, the actions of the State cannot be legally and ethical a result of Christianity. On the other hand, by law, Islamic law is the fundamental core of the Egyptian constitution. In Egypt, there cannot be a separation of religion and state. Therefore, the actions of the state - if motivated and done in the name of religion - is indirectly caused by Islam.
I have never heard of any American soldier committing a crime, like throwing an Iraqi animal off a cliff, in the name of Trinity. This individual is responsible for his own actions and religion and culture is somewhat responsible. Likewise, a Muslim terrorist who commits a crime in the name of Allah is responsible for his own actions but the religion bears some responsibility. The only thing is we're pointing the finger at the wrong "religions". It's not Christianity or Islam that condones crimes. It is hate and racism. See the movie "The Kingdom" with Jamie Foxx.
When I mentioned rich countries I meant rich or at least medium income MUSLIM countries.And to address Muslims in Europe.Europe has the worst integration system I know of.Because of European society muslims there tend to isolate themselves from the rest.Well that I partly blame muslims to but really its European system thats really causing the divide.Muslims in The US are among the prosperous in the nation.Why ? its because america has a system set in place where anyone of any faiths or race can integrate nicely.
Islam is a peaceful religion and orders its followers to respect everyone regardless of creed or race.When muslims kill in the name of religion are in the wrong, I hope you can believe that.Killing innocents is not a part of Islam.Many muslims get upset with other muslims when they kill for no reason.I did my best to explain and show all of you that Islam does not condone violence.I understand action speaks louder than words but what would you have me do ?Im just a college student with no political power and same can be said for muslims everywhere.Its up to the MB to settle the coptic problem.You can believe me if you want or you dont have to.I dont benefit or dis-benefit brother. "yet there seems little recognition that the very framework of the beliefs owned by the Fascists and Nazis came from their Christian upbringing from church, school, and Christian traditions. The entire anti-Jewish and racial sentiments came not from some new philosophy or unique ideology, but rather from centuries of Christian preaching against the Jews, gypsies, and heretics. This comes especially true for European countries, for the Christian practice of crusades, inquisitions and holy wars occurred in their own backyards"
"Compelling Jews to wear yellow badges came from an invention of the Catholic Church"
http://www.nobeliefs.com/ChurchesWWII.htm
There have been many crimes committed in the name of christianity.You must research it.
Regarding the hijab.
Why does a nun cover herself ? im sure we can have different opinion on this matter.But we all can agree that when nuns cover themselves its a form of respect between the sister and God.Same with muslim women.Many Women who wear the headscarf wear it because their husbands or fathers told them to.But Many make the decision to wear it on their own.Why they choose to wear it ? some say its personal freedom and others just dont want the stares.
God preaches only moral values to people.Now why would God be ok for women to wear bikinis or tight jeans ?would God be ok for a woman of faith to show a cleavage ? Of course not!Glory be To God.
It would be make sense for God commanding women to cover themselves.Jewish women do it and christian women do it. Are you saying that when If Islam tells women to cover, its wrong ? then I guess what nuns are doing is
wrong to.
And those Egyptians who attack Muslim woman who covers herself are sick perverts and I hope they burn in hell.
a little advice to you brother.Whatever happens in Egypt doesnt represent the ENTIRE muslim community.I noticed many coptic christians take Egypt as if its the only muslim country in the world and whatever happens in it , represents Islam.
In many countries muslim women that covers are respected.
This is a nice clip of the hijab
I brought the example of the puppy was to show that I shouldnt judge the US MILITARY by the action of one man.
By the way did you read my long response to you on page 2 ?
The point I was making about the soul and spirit also. That in arabic the soul is femine and the spirit masculine, is that, then the soul internalisers the spirit, so it is important what the spirit is that is going into the soul.
Another point, is that when we pray, we are talking to God and when we read the bible, it is listening
to God. I guess you could apply that to the way you feel to the koran.
Then we argue over what we are listening to. So within Islam as well as christianity, people have
being selective about what they listen to according to their situation and have not sought the peace
offered by both.
God Willing I will forward your question to an Islamic website.What you are asking is probably way beyond me haha.
If you want me to read an article or watch a video, then please send one in english cause I really dont understand Arabic
[quote author=Joshuaa link=topic=14240.msg163233#msg163233 date=1360528986]
The point I was making about the soul and spirit also. That in arabic the soul is femine and the spirit masculine, is that, then the soul internalisers the spirit, so it is important what the spirit is that is going into the soul.
Another point, is that when we pray, we are talking to God and when we read the bible, it is listening
to God. I guess you could apply that to the way you feel to the koran.
Then we argue over what we are listening to. So within Islam as well as christianity, people have
being selective about what they listen to according to their situation and have not sought the peace
offered by both.
God Willing I will forward your question to an Islamic website.What you are asking is probably way beyond me haha.
Thank you Altair9. Can you give me the answer is well. Because I tend to look at the nature of things and because we are in a spiritual battle. I asked myself what is the nature of the soul and spirit?
To me it explains the core of truth.
Glad you came back too. It's good to have you here.
I don't follow. Both the American military and Egyptian military are sworn to defend their respective constitutions. The Egyptian constitution requires Islamic religious law (ie, mandatory religious requirements on the state), the American constitution does the opposite (ie, requires separation of church and state). If the American military does something criminal but legal, it is near impossible to find a causal relationship to Christianity. If the Egyptian military does something criminal but legal, you already have an indirect causal relationship to Islam.
I'll put it this way:
1. Egyptian military enforces Egyptian constitution
2. Egyptian constitution requires Islamic religious law as supreme authority.
3. If Egyptian military does something legal to enforce Egyptian constitution, it is doing so under the protection of Islamic religious law.
4. If said legal action done by the Egyptian military is criminal (or at least unethical), then it is doing it under the protection of Islamic religious law.
Therefore, Islamic religious law (which is integral to Islam) allows criminal actions. And you can't say this about the American military and American constitution.
Now I understand you are saying that if there is a legal action that is criminal or unethical, it cannot be protected by Islam. And I think, in theory, you are correct. But since separation of religion and state is forbidden in Islam, and the scenario above shows a causal link between Islam and criminal action, then you are stuck. The only logical rebuttal would require one to prove either (1) the Egyptian military doesn't defend the Egyptian constitution but acts on its own consciousness independent of the Egyptian constitution or (2) the Egyptian constitution inadequately upholds Islamic religious law or (3) even though the Egyptian constitution enforces Islamic religious law, there is an implied separation of religion and state. All three of these response admits that someone is not following laws. The only logical response if all 3 rebuttals are invalid is that Islam is indirectly responsible for the criminal actions in Egypt.
I agree with everything else in your response except your conclusion on how Coptic Christians think. Coptic Christians do not think the actions of the military are religiously linked because the military is predominately Muslim. Coptic Christians think the actions of the military are religiously linked because the Egyptian Constitution and judicial branch of the Egyptian government say so. The degree of responsibility among the Egyptian constitution, the Egyptian government, the Egyptian military, the individuals who commit the crimes and Islam is a matter of interpretation. Claiming no responsibility on the part of Islam concerning the actions of these Egyptian parties denies the fundamental core of Islamic religious requirement in Egyptian government.
If I have misunderstood your statements, please forgive me.
Yea america is secular and its crimes are nothing religious. But yet I have met muslims who judge the actions of american soldiers as an "indirect" relationship to christianity just because the soldiers were christians. Copts have the same mentality.
So you are saying that if some crazy egyptian soldier who stray away from its moral codes were to harass a lady , its an indirect relationship to Islam ? what if an Egyptian christian conscript were to do something crazy , its an indirect relationship to Islam ?
When the military does something stupid like killing people senselessly it has nothing to do with Islam.
And I can bet my house if Turkey which is predominately muslim but outright secular were to for some odd reason attack a group of Coptic protesters, no doubt copts will associate this turkish crime with Islam.
And When you say they enforce Sharia law , what are they enforcing ?What aspect of the law are they enforcing ?
wrong to.
I think Altair9, that the ones who don't dress appropriately, are not being spiritual and have the temptation of the sin of adultery. But when it comes to temptation, we veiw and deal with it differently.
women should not wear bikini, but men should not stare either.
it works both ways, if i see a man's butt crack coz his pants are too far down, i have to look away, not whip him for indecent clothing.
The soul, being feminine, is about full-fillment. So as christians believe we have a covenent with God. It's like a promise. This is it:
Genesis 17:7 " And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after
you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your
descendants after you.
So our church is in the lineage of the covenant of Christ, and that is what is being full-filled. A prophet
does not change God's covenant, nor does a prophet establish a way for God's people to live.
Hello
I posted this question in "Coptic Orthodox Church" But I wasnt getting much to no responses So thought here would a better place.I hope.
My name is Mohamed and I signed-up here to learn more about Coptic Christians.I believe that all the chaos thats happening in Egypt is because of Ignorance from both sides of Egyptian society and of course because of the economy.The best way to shun this ignorance is to build bridges so I thought starting here wouldnt hurt. I have some questions for you guys and I hope you can answer them
1-) Whats the primary difference between Copts and Catholics ?
2-) What is your view of the political climate in Egypt ? And do you see hope for the future under the MB?
3-) Whats the Coptic dress code ? (E.g. Muslims are required to wear modestly and not showy so bikinis are a no no)
4-)Whats your view of Muslims ? whats your view of Islam ?
5-)What have you heard of Islam that you find disturbing ? (Back-up with facts and sources)
You dont have to answer them all!
These are my questions for now
Thank You and God Bless!
Welcome Altair9,
Thank you for coming to this forum and giving me an opportunity to learn from your point of view. I think you've defended your beliefs strongly and honestly. I'm from the U.S. and don't speak Arabic either. I've really just heard the U.S. Copt and Fundamentalists' views of Islam. These views have always seemed skewed, and sometimes even blind to me. You've helped me to a more reasonable understanding. I do have a few highly admired Muslim family acquaintances, but I've not discussed their faith beliefs with them. Their lives reflect very well on their beliefs and morals.
Sometime I'd like to read your understandings of faithful family life, beliefs and relationships. I'm especially interested in how the young Muslim immigrant families, and your faith community in general are handling the temptations and divisions offered to young wives with children, by the U.S. divorce industry, to rebel against and divorce their husbands and break-up their family. What would you say that the divorce rate is among the U.S./Western Muslim immigrant community? Do you have any Muslim divorce lawyers/psychologists who specialize in encouraging divorce in your communities? What role in the U.S. or Western Muslim faith community is assigned to the psychiatry/psychology/ counseling industry "professionals?" What is the source or sources of the principles of the Muslim family and gender relationship beliefs? How are these beliefs taught and enforced by the faith community leaders and members?
In response to your first question regarding differences between Copts and Catholics, I'll try to offer some general views. In a general superficial sense, an outsider would not see great differences in general beliefs of Copts and Catholics. We both started from the same precise source 2000 years ago. The same disciples (Apostles) of Jesus Christ took the same teachings of Jesus (none written by Jesus) throughout their amazing world travels. They essentially planted a few seeds, mostly in persecution, of the current national churches to different nations/tribes/races. The Catholic Church descended from the early Apostles who went to Rome, the traditional political world capitol. The Roman Catholic Church (Catholic Church) developed a symbiotic political personality with Roman politics and has at various times assumed national/international political/commercial/military leadership. The Catholic Church has also developed a theology of world christian leadership, which is largely rejected by the remainder of ancient (Coptic/Greek/Russian, for example) and modern (Protestant) Christian Churches. Involvement in civil politics has always been a central activity of the Catholic Church leadership at all levels. The Coptic Church is at the other end of this political spectrum. Copts have enjoyed [since about 50 A.D. (or C.E.)] some periods of political peace, but largely, varying degrees of political persecution. The Copts have never developed a theology of accommodation with politics (beyond the general teachings of peace seeking in the Holy Bible) that I am aware of. So, Copts should never have to feel compelled to justify the general corruption that always accompanies politics. This is an important freedom to me. I've noticed, here, that some Western assimilated Copts have clumsily tried to justify U.S. political and military (probably also commercial) excesses. I don't believe that this is Coptic Church baggage that they are trying to carry.
I visualize, perhaps incorrectly, that the political character of the Catholic Church and Islam have some similarities. Individual Copts may have some political interests and compulsions, but I am not aware of this interest being carried over into general beliefs. Native Eqyptian Copts may have different views in this matter, but I've spent over 20 years close friendship and worship with many U. S. Copts, and I haven't noticed it.
The reason I was explaining things in terms of soul and spirit Altair9 is because spirit, being masculine is straight in it's direction. Straight is one term for orthodox. Also, that makes it linear, which means it starts somewhere and finishes.
The soul, being feminine, is about full-fillment. So as christians believe we have a covenent with God. It's like a promise. This is it:
Genesis 17:7 " And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after
you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your
descendants after you.
So our church is in the lineage of the covenant of Christ, and that is what is being full-filled. A prophet
does not change God's covenant, nor does a prophet establish a way for God's people to live.
I've forwarded your question , the thing is your post not being very understood.What is your question specifically ?