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Liturgy of the Pre-sanctified Gifts in Coptic Orthodox Church?
Hello,
Do Copts celebrate the Liturgy of the Pre-sanctified Gifts during Wednesdays and Fridays of the Great Lent?
I know we EO do, but I was curious if you all do as well. And if not, do you have an abundance of services during the weeks of Lent in order to offer more spiritual support for yourselves? I find it a great help to receive Communion two times during the week in the Fast to help with spiritual combat.
Peace
Do Copts celebrate the Liturgy of the Pre-sanctified Gifts during Wednesdays and Fridays of the Great Lent?
I know we EO do, but I was curious if you all do as well. And if not, do you have an abundance of services during the weeks of Lent in order to offer more spiritual support for yourselves? I find it a great help to receive Communion two times during the week in the Fast to help with spiritual combat.
Peace
Comments
Since the papacy of Pope Kyrillos, many churches hold liturgies everyday, both during and outside Lent. Liturgies on Wednesday and Fridays tend to start later to allow for complete abstinence in the beginning of the day.
I am just finding out that such a service really exists! I researched it quite poorly, and only have a general idea. Nevertheless, I would absolutely love if you could tell us a bit more about it, and its traditions!
In Christ,
Monasticsx
The copts do not practise the liturgy of the pre sanctified gifts at all. However, instead, on most wednesdays and fridays of the holy fast, we celebrate an entire liturgy; from beginning to end. Perhaps, the same as is prayed on Sundays, yet with the exception of a few chants.
I am just finding out that such a service really exists! I researched it quite poorly, and only have a general idea. Nevertheless, I would absolutely love if you could tell us a bit more about it, and its traditions!
In Christ,
Monasticsx
Ah, okay, cool.
The Pre-sanctified Liturgy is essentially a combination of the beginning of the Vespers service. Vespers is always held on Saturday nights in my jurisdiction (others do Vigil on Saturday nights: Vespers + Matins) both inside and outside of Great Lent. Pre-sanctified includes the first part of Vespers along with the Liturgy of the Faithful (in a sense). Since Vespers is typically a more somber service regardless of the time of year, looking forward to the Resurrection of Christ and preparing us for Sunday Liturgy, Pre-sanctified Liturgies are more somber in tone because they are held during the Fast. Also, they are usually held in the evenings, around 6:30 for us.
By "Pre-sanctified", we are referring to the "holy gifts", or "Lamb" or "Qurbana?" being sanctified on the previous Sunday during Holy Liturgy, so that those prayers are not said over the gifts that are offered during the Pre-sanctified Liturgies during the following week. Instead, the start of the "Liturgy" is the penitential hymns of vespers.
Just having read an article on this service on wikipedia, I see that "The Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts was once used in the West Syrian Rite, the liturgy of the Syriac Orthodox Church, but has fallen into disuse in most of the Syriac Orthodox communion.[2] However, it continues to be used in the Malankara Rite, a variant historically practiced in the Malankara Church of India, and now practiced by the several churches that descended from it." Interesting.
Therefore in our Eastern Orthodox tradition we do not serve Liturgy in Great Lent (except Saturdays and Sundays, Annunciation and Palm Sunday).
Because in early church believers took Communion very often, period of 5 days was to long without it in Great Lent. Therefore Roman Pope Gregory the Dialogist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Gregory_I) established additional communion in Great Lent at Wedensday and Friday vespers.
It is actualy vesper with communion. This communion is kept from the last Sunday.
Since, we were already in schism when this praxis was established that is the reason why Copts don't have it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wjEGya2BGY
Short video from different Serbian churches.
Allow me to share with you some of what I know about the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts. Sorry in advance if this will not be very well connected.
The practice of reserving communion for future use is something very old, way before the schism in fact. You can find references to it in some of the Fathers' writings. Essentially people were allowed early on to take particles of the body and blood home with them for the sick and the imprisoned. Later, this function was delegated to deacons, and later still it became reserved for priests only. So, what Servos said about people taking communion often in the early Church is only half-true, in the sense that in many areas believers reserved the sacrament at home for partaking during the week, not that actual Eucharistic celebrations were held throughout the week as is the case now in the Coptic church (scholars differ on whether the Eucharist was celebrated during the week or not, but the point is, communion does not necessarily equal liturgy in Church). Sunday was the main (not necessarily only) Eucharistic day, and has always occupied a special position in Christian worship, an understanding which you can still observe in many traditions (if not all).
In addition, monasticism being so strong in Egypt by the 4th and 5th centuries contributed to the practice of reserving communion. As many of you know, monasticism was not a strongly clerical movement in the beginning. Very few monks were ordained to the clergy, and many early monastic communities lacked a presbyter to celebrate the liturgy at all. What happened is that priests from nearby towns and villages would travel to the monastery on Sundays (perhaps not even every Sunday) and would celebrate the liturgy. I believe that reserving communion from that Sunday celebration would have been quite logical for later use by the monks individually in their cells (there is textual evidence for that, though I'd have to dig for it, forgive me).
A passage in the Ecclesiastical History of Sozomen speaks of the different liturgical practices in the various Christian centers in the 4th century. Regarding Egypt, the author indicates that during Lent on Wed and Fri, and I am paraphrasing, every thing is done according to the normal gathering except the completion of the mysteries. Some scholars took this to mean that a presanctified liturgy existed in Egypt in the 4th century, since everything was done as usual (presumably communion) except the completion (read: sanctification or consecration) of the mysteries. I personally don't buy that, and many scholars don't either. It is a fact however that reserving communion and partaking of it later in the week did in fact exist in Egypt and in many other places in the early Church. For a detailed history of this interesting practice, you can refer to two books in particular in English:
Stefanos Alexopoulous, The presanctified liturgy in the Byzantine rite: a comparative analysis of its origins, evolution, and structural components,
Nicholas Uspensky, Evening Worship in the Orthodox Church
Another evidence that the Coptic church did observe this practice is from The History of the Patriarchs by Severus of Ashmunein (Hermopolis). In the story of Pope Christodoulos (11th cent), it describes how he visited the monastery of St. Macarius during one Holy Week and found out that they reserve the sacrament from Palm Sunday to partake of it on Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday of Holy Week. Pope Christodoulos immediately banned the practice on the grounds that the oblation bread might physically decay from the heat. Of course, the monks of St. Macarius did not easily accept this change of practice, but ultimately gave in to the Pope. Pope Christodoulos then went down in history as the Coptic patriarch that prohibited this practice until now.
There is further evidence that this practice was perfectly normal in our tradition, and connections that should be explored, but I will spare everyone the intricate details. Bottom line is, almost every ancient Eastern tradition observed this practice in some way. Regarding the Syrian Orthodox, there is a text for the liturgy of the Presanctified attributed to St. Severus of Antioch in Syriac. It was published long ago and translated to French, but of course its authorship (as is the case with most liturgical texts) is disputed.
Essentially, it is a Vespers service almost to the end. At some point, the Great Entrance is done, where the body and blood reserved from the previous Sunday on the table of oblation (a small table inside the sanctuary by the Northern wall) is take in a procession exiting the sanctuary Northern door, down the church, and up the center aisle towards the royal doors. What happens afterwards is basically fast-forward to the Our Father, then priest exclaims "The (presanctified) holy things for the holy" and then communion follows. So in other words, a liturgy without any of the liturgy of the faithful (anaphora...etc).
One more remark, it is widely understood today that the attribution of this service in the Byzantine tradition to Gregory the Dialogist is not true. It is highly unlikely that Gregory the Dialogist is the author of such a service, and no one really knows who wrote it, if any. If you look in the books I referenced above, you will find some discussion of this with no conclusive evidence. Many other famous names have been suggested throughout history, including even Severus of Antioch (imagine the Byzantines taking a service written by Severus of Antioch?!). Nonetheless, I understand why Servos said this, since it is the most popularly held opinion, and it is typed in many EO service books.
I agree with you.
In our tradition Liturgy is something joyfull. Great Lent is something sad.
Therefore in our Eastern Orthodox tradition we do not serve Liturgy in Great Lent (except Saturdays and Sundays, Annunciation and Palm Sunday).
So wait, you're telling me that the Serbian Orthodox Church does not have Liturgy during the week? Either in Lent or outside of Lent?
Another evidence that the Coptic church did observe this practice is from The History of the Patriarchs by Severus of Ashmunein (Hermopolis). In the story of Pope Christodoulos (11th cent), it describes how he visited the monastery of St. Macarius during one Holy Week and found out that they reserve the sacrament from Palm Sunday to partake of it on Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday of Holy Week. Pope Christodoulos immediately banned the practice on the grounds that the oblation bread might physically decay from the heat. Of course, the monks of St. Macarius did not easily accept this change of practice, but ultimately gave in to the Pope. Pope Christodoulos then went down in history as the Coptic patriarch that prohibited this practice until now.
Very interesting!
[quote author=Servos link=topic=14368.msg164169#msg164169 date=1365677947]
In our tradition Liturgy is something joyfull. Great Lent is something sad.
Therefore in our Eastern Orthodox tradition we do not serve Liturgy in Great Lent (except Saturdays and Sundays, Annunciation and Palm Sunday).
So wait, you're telling me that the Serbian Orthodox Church does not have Liturgy during the week? Either in Lent or outside of Lent?
:)
In GREAT LENT there is no Liturgy in Eastern Orthodox World (except Saturdays and Sundays, Annunciation and Palm Sunday). In OCA too.
Liturgy of the Pre-sanctified Gifts is not a Liturgy, it is just vesper with Communion.
:)
The Divine Liturgy is the most joyous and festive event in the Coptic church as well, no difference there between Copts and Eastern Orthodox. Unfortunately, this is something that is sometimes obscured by later liturgical developments not fully aware of this basic fact of liturgical theology. People today who are unaware of liturgical history, and who might base their understanding of Coptic liturgy on what is currently practiced may not be aware of the centrality of the Eucharist as a celebration of faith. That is why liturgical history matters :)
When it comes to the Presanctified, or its absence in the Coptic rite, more research would have to be done in the story I mentioned before about Pope Christodoulos banning it. If this is indeed what happened, it would be a very absurd reason indeed to ban an entire practice/service. Did the body decay in ages previous to Christodoulos and finally someone came to put an end to this? If not, then what makes Pope Christodoulos all of a sudden realize that decay might occur, while obviously the monks of St. Macarius did not think this was a risk? Perhaps the practice had already died out in other areas of Egypt and Alexandria, and Pope Christodoulos was simply surprised by a practice he had never heard of, and so banned it out of unfamiliarity. The whole story needs further research.
Nonetheless, my original point remains. The absence of the Presanctified in Coptic practice notwithstanding, the liturgical history of the Coptic rite testifies (as do other Orthodox traditions) to the joyous nature of the Orthodox liturgy.
I think the reason preservation was banned was because of the attacks that were occurring on churches like what's happening now in Egypt.
I wonder if there is any ancient church in Egypt that still has the place where the Body and Blood were preserved. Any one have a pic of it?
I don't have any sources, but...
I think the reason preservation was banned was because of the attacks that were occurring on churches like what's happening now in Egypt.
I wonder if there is any ancient church in Egypt that still has the place where the Body and Blood were preserved. Any one have a pic of it?
I have also heard the same thing. The pre sanctified liturgy was practiced in the Coptic church until the ottoman empire, where churches were being destroyed and the holy mysteries were scattered thus resulting in a discontinuation of the practice. The mysteries were kept in the throne (where the chalice is kept during liturgy) from the last Sunday's liturgy. Again this is something I heard and I have no source for it. I am interested to see if anyone can verify or update me on the truth of the matter.
Please refer to the story I mentioned above from the life of Pope Christodoulos (11th cent). While I am not entirely sure this story is 100% accurate, I agree that part of it may have been attacks by Muslims. However, it would definitely not be the Ottoman era by any stretch. The Ottomans entered Egypt in the 16th century, whereas already by the time of Ibn Kabar (14th cent) we find no reference to reserving the sacrament or a Presanctified Liturgy in his otherwise very detailed ritual manual, The Lamp of Darkness.
See Coptic Encylopedia Articles on "Reservation of the blessed" and "Communion of the sick"
Is there a copy or version of this somewhere online? I can't seem to find it anywhere if it is. Thanks.
http://ccdl.libraries.claremont.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/cce/id/493/rec/5
http://ccdl.libraries.claremont.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/cce/id/1684/rec/40
http://ccdl.libraries.claremont.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/cce/id/493/rec/5
Thank you!
Eastern Orthodox priests do not take the Presanctified Gifts out of the church, but they stay in and on the altar until the next Presanctified Liturgy for the faithful to Commune of at the church. Priests do, however, as in the sources quoted above, will take a small portion of the Presanctified Body and Blood to a sick and/or dying person who cannot come to the church in order to Commune them.
Hello,
Do Copts celebrate the Liturgy of the Pre-sanctified Gifts during Wednesdays and Fridays of the Great Lent?
I know we EO do, but I was curious if you all do as well. And if not, do you have an abundance of services during the weeks of Lent in order to offer more spiritual support for yourselves? I find it a great help to receive Communion two times during the week in the Fast to help with spiritual combat.
Peace
Arsenios,
I haven't kept up with this and the other recent discussions. The recent dishonest spirit of arbitrary, self-serving censorship of honest opposing arguments has destroyed the integrity of this forum for me. It seems to me that this is similar to the type of circumstance where Jesus told his disciples, "And if any one will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet as you leave that house. ... Sodom and Gomorrah ... ." Mt. 10:14-15, et seq..
I have come to understand this explanation of the Pre-sanctified service to be another example of EO propaganda that is actually justification for another compromising ecumenical/convenience short cut. As I recall, every Coptic parish that I have attended offers Matins and Divine Liturgy on weekdays of the Great FAST. I don't recall the reason that Coptic Vespers and Praises are not prayed on weekdays. I believe that the full liturgical cycle is prayed daily in Coptic monasteries. There seems to be no compelling reason for this short-cut that omits the full daily Divine Liturgy prayers, not only during the Fast, but throughout the year. If an individual is unable to attend the full Liturgy, Abouna will grant permission to receive the Gifts to late arrivers. So, as in every circumstance that I am aware, except regarding traditional Orthodox Apostolic gender and family theology, the Coptic Church routinely believes and practices more traditional observances than any, except possibly ROCOR, EO jurisdiction that I am aware. There are so many details, that the only means of understanding is to "come and see." It took many years for me to overcome all of the RC and EO propaganda. Sadly, it seems that the secret agendas of many Coptic ecumenists is to bring these compromises and contradictions into the Coptic Church. As the RC and EO have proven, once accepted, these demons never seem to leave. This is similar to the apostasies that feminism and freudianism seem to have now accomplished, even in the Coptic Church. Now, all criticisms of these heresies are damned, and even censored.
Can you please point out how it is that the preservation of the mysteries is a form of propaganda? I'm, again, trying to take you seriously, but you going to have to help me out. Not everything which the EO do and which we used to do is EO propaganda.
Coming and seeing, we've done it IP. We have come and seen the Copts, and loved it. We have gone and seen the Greeks and loved it. Find Christ, not conspiracy. Find Christ, not a reason to hate women. Find Christ. Find Christ. Find Christ.
As for censorship, if anyone reads one of your posts, they have read all of them. I'll summarize all your points. 1) Feminism 2) Freudianism 3) EO Propapaganda 4) ROCOR is OK 5) Hegelian Dialectic. Thats all you have to say. I urge you to look back and find a post not about that. We've had atheists debate us on this site, and they were well tolerated because they had questions, and a point to make. We've had Muslims because they had questions, and a point to make. Censorship does not come with disagreement. It is a product of being sick of white noise. Once you start speaking something other than the above 5, people will listen, I assure you. That does not mean that you must change your view about the above 5, you may even speak about them. But you remind me of Islamic Terrorists. You always hijack threads, and bring them to something irritably incoherent. I post a thread in hopes that your internet is cut out, and well get some real information before we have to stop.
I hope that everyone can still complete this discussion on a factual level, I was following and trying to understand our history.
Raymond
Find Christ, not conspiracy. Find Christ, not a reason to hate women. Find Christ. Find Christ. Find Christ.
I gotta agree with you on that one.
So, as in every circumstance that I am aware, except regarding traditional Orthodox Apostolic gender and family theology, the Coptic Church routinely believes and practices more traditional observances than any, except possibly ROCOR, EO jurisdiction that I am aware. There are so many details, that the only means of understanding is to "come and see." It took many years for me to overcome all of the RC and EO propaganda.
I hope to "come and see" eventually, but like your own story, it is probably going to take me some time. My interest wanes and flags so much. I come here for a while and post some questions, get great answers and responses, and then say "Eh, I'm EO, that's good enough." And then some time passes and the interest resurfaces, and so on and so forth. We shall see what happens.
[quote author=ReturnOrthodoxy link=topic=14368.msg164274#msg164274 date=1366564172]
Find Christ, not conspiracy. Find Christ, not a reason to hate women. Find Christ. Find Christ. Find Christ.
I gotta agree with you on that one.
Careful, Arsenios,
They're looking for Christ in their own imaginations, not in His Commandments. If you love Me, you will keep My (gender and family) Commandments. If you love women, you will fully share these same Truths (Commandments) with them.
There is also too much bald faced feminist propaganda lies here, too. They think that their best defense of their heresies is fabricated false defamations of their revealers'. Reveal their feminist heresy, then you are falsely accused of being a women hating misogynist. To the most avid of such similar God hating, divorce/abortion loving, true feminist "theologians," this company of falsely accused women haters also includes Our Patriarchal Father Creator of Gen. 2 & 3 (they prefer a warm and fuzzy, undefined, mothergods' imagination of "mankind" within the latitudes of Gen. 1); Abraham (Sarah's lord) of Gen. 12-25; Moses; Saints David and Solomon; Jesus Christ; His Apostle Saints Peter and Paul; Saint John Chrysostom; Blessed Augustine; Pope Kyrillos; Anba Gregorios; etc.. Sadly that is about the end of the "falsely accused women haters" (except irishpilgrim) (and, don't leave out, Father Lawrence Farley) in the self-proclaimed modern feminist/freudian loving "orthodox churches" (except ROCOR).
Irishpilgrim has been very careful to only base his criticisms of God hating feminist gender and family theology, in the RC and Orthodox Churches, on the principles that have been clearly stated in the Holy works of these Holy Fathers. Irishpilgrim has not been shown to have made one, un-retracted, word in contradiction to these Holy Fathers. Show me, lying Hegelian defamers. Truth of feminist and freudian heresies is censored. False Hegelian defamations of the gender and family theology of the Holy Fathers is paraded and praised. Not a proud time for God's created Patriarchal Order. (Didn't that used to include the Holy Orthodox Churches?)
Fr. Shenouda Maer might have some information on the litrugy of the pre-sanctified gifts in the COC. Has anyone consulted him, or Deacon Antonios? Sifaing is very close with them so Sifain, if you're there ya 3am, make a few phone calls and get us the answer lol
RO
[quote author=irishpilgrim link=topic=14368.msg164273#msg164273 date=1366561591]
So, as in every circumstance that I am aware, except regarding traditional Orthodox Apostolic gender and family theology, the Coptic Church routinely believes and practices more traditional observances than any, except possibly ROCOR, EO jurisdiction that I am aware. There are so many details, that the only means of understanding is to "come and see." It took many years for me to overcome all of the RC and EO propaganda.
I hope to "come and see" eventually, but like your own story, it is probably going to take me some time. My interest wanes and flags so much. I come here for a while and post some questions, get great answers and responses, and then say "Eh, I'm EO, that's good enough." And then some time passes and the interest resurfaces, and so on and so forth. We shall see what happens.
Arsenios,
I can never get far from a concern for the seemingly looming collapse of the patriarchal gender and family order that has been the foundation of all God centered societies (churches) until today. Strong signs of this collapse in the RC and EO churches (except ROCOR), helped me out of their doors. At that time, the Coptic and Ethiopean Churches seemed unaffected. Our deeper spirituality and practices is, I think, a naturally occurring accompaniment to the God pleasing patriarchal order that prevailed. Now patriarchy is also defamed and censored as being misogynist, even here.
I know that you can be spiritually fulfilled in most EO communities. I suspect that you may not be baptized Orthodox. Most born/baptised Orthodox are resolved to stay with the faith (church) of their fathers. (I think it is a shame to give fake "anointing" initiation to sincere seekers for Orthodoxy. I went on that path and cannot thank my Coptic Bishop enough for requiring my Orthodox Baptism and Holy Myron.) They are needed there and should stay to help revive the compromised/abbreviated New World version of the ancient faith of their Fathers. By comparison, I think you will find that the Coptic Church has been much more diligent in attempting to bring the fullness of our faith and practice to the New Worlds. I think that the whole package can be recovered. If taught, like Saints Peter and Paul taught the women of the Dispersion, Corinth, Colossi, Ephesis, etc., the now rebellious Orthodox women can be trained to love their husbands and children, to be sensible, chaste, domestic, kind and submissive to their husbands, that the word of God may not be discredited. Titus 2:3-5. The nearly total Orthodox capitulation to feminism and freudianism is an entirely new novelty in the Coptic and Ethiopean Churches. The EO have had their rebellious queens since their beginning. We didn't need it then, nor now. Until these recent generations, all Orthodox women were reputed to be obedient to the Scriptural gender and family commandments. They have now been ignored and soon forgotten.
1) Feminism 2) Freudianism 3) EO Propapaganda 4) ROCOR is OK 5) Hegelian Dialectic Like I said. All his points are expected, measured, and ultimately, worthless. How on God's green earth was this post about feminism. Point out where feminism entered this topic before you did. It did not. It was about the pre-sanctified gifts. The Eucharist. Those who commented before were people interested in the Eucharistic Tradition history of our church. You are more interested in speaking about feminism.
Oh, and I love Fr. Lawrence Farley. Met him once, had a conversation with him (a very brilliant man, I might add). But if he saw you, he would probably laugh.
RO