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Last Friday of Lent Rites

copticuser20copticuser20
edited December 1969 in Hymns Discussion
Does anything change concerning the rites for the Tasbeha of the last friday of lent (thursday night)? Is it a normal, weekday lenten tasbeha or do the tunes change to weekend?

Comments

  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=copticuser20 link=topic=14383.msg164275#msg164275 date=1366587649]
    Does anything change concerning the rites for the Tasbeha of the last friday of lent (thursday night)? Is it a normal, weekday lenten tasbeha or do the tunes change to weekend?

    They change into weekend
  • ophadeceophadece
    do we still stay nefcenti and al ei e i eqoun ?
    oujai qen P[C
  • drewhalim
    During the liturgy on Friday you do chant the psalm Nefcenti but you would chant Alleluia Je efmevi instead. Many people incorrectly say that the Last Friday of Lent is the same as Sat/Sun. This is not strictly correct and what I personally say is the last Friday of Lent follows the rituals of the weekday and the hymns/chants of Sat/Sun. My evidence for this is that you do not close the veil and read prophecies on the weekends, you do not do metania's and pray the petitions nor do you pray the Agpeya to the 12th hour. I have seen some books that say during the liturgy you chant sotis but I have spoken with numerous cantors who agree that we do metania's in matins so why not continue during the liturgy? Also The book on rituals published by El Syrian Monastery agrees with this.

    As for the hymnology the easiest way to look at it is all hymns are replaced with the weekend tunes and any hymn chanted at the weekend and not during weekdays namely Meghalo, Apenchois and Aspasmos' (separate argument) may be chanted.
  • dg920
    Muallem Ibrahim Ayad just posted a video on his channel about it.
    Here it is:

  • drewhalim
    It's good to see he agrees with what I said also.
  • copticuser20copticuser20
    So can cymbals be played starting tonight and into tomorrow?
  • drewhalim
    Yes as Midnight Praises tonight are for tomorrow.
  • imikhailimikhail
    [quote author=copticuser20 link=topic=14383.msg164329#msg164329 date=1366895418]
    So can cymbals be played starting tonight and into tomorrow?


    Cymbals can be played at any time. They are for rhythm.
  • drewhalim
    There are two arguments for use of cymbals and both different schools of thought. The modern argument is they are to set rhythm and therefore can be used at any time and the more traditional teaching is that cymbals add an element of joy and should not be used during Lent weekdays. The latter is what Muallim Farag taught and is written at the beginning of his madiah book. I would also say that following this many churches did not chant the Aspasmos during the lent weekdays which has now changed. Ibrahim Ayad on his website is between both thoughts as he says the Aspasmos for example can be said on any day but without cymbals on weekdays.

    I see that both arguments are valid and suppose it's up to individual churches to choose which teaching to follow.
  • imikhailimikhail
    If the asbasmos can be said during the lent days then why can't the cymbals be used?

    In the Coptic tradition, the cymbals are merely for the rhythm. All these opinions that say are not to be used during the lent or otherwise, are modern personal opinions and have nothing to do with the tradition passed on.
  • ShareTheLordShareTheLord
    Then what are the 'Cymbals of Joy'?

    If it were truly just for rhythm, the triento would be sufficient and the cymbals would not be played with a 'musical' beat but instead with singular beats. There seems to be biblical support that cymbals are used for praise (Psalm 150 and Miriam the Prophetess). I'll admit, this is my personal opinion and you may be entirely correct, but you cannot deny the confusion and support for my opinion mentioned above (my opinion was partly influenced by an elderly priest at my church). I have yet to see textual evidence of the rhythm argument, but I would gladly like to be proven wrong!
  • imikhailimikhail
    [quote author=ShareTheLord link=topic=14383.msg164495#msg164495 date=1368104024]
    Then what are the 'Cymbals of Joy'?

    If it were truly just for rhythm, the triento would be sufficient and the cymbals would not be played with a 'musical' beat but instead with singular beats. There seems to be biblical support that cymbals are used for praise (Psalm 150 and Miriam the Prophetess). I'll admit, this is my personal opinion and you may be entirely correct, but you cannot deny the confusion and support for my opinion mentioned above (my opinion was partly influenced by an elderly priest at my church). I have yet to see textual evidence of the rhythm argument, but I would gladly like to be proven wrong!


    The cymbals that we use today are not the Cymbals mentioned in the Bible and are not the ones that were in use in the church till the mid 19th century. Some of the monasteries have the original cymbals that were used and they are similar to the ones that the Ethiopian church use.

    The ones that are in use today are borrowed from Melekites (al Room).
  • ShareTheLordShareTheLord
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=14383.msg164505#msg164505 date=1368113231]
    [quote author=ShareTheLord link=topic=14383.msg164495#msg164495 date=1368104024]
    Then what are the 'Cymbals of Joy'?

    If it were truly just for rhythm, the triento would be sufficient and the cymbals would not be played with a 'musical' beat but instead with singular beats. There seems to be biblical support that cymbals are used for praise (Psalm 150 and Miriam the Prophetess). I'll admit, this is my personal opinion and you may be entirely correct, but you cannot deny the confusion and support for my opinion mentioned above (my opinion was partly influenced by an elderly priest at my church). I have yet to see textual evidence of the rhythm argument, but I would gladly like to be proven wrong!


    The cymbals that we use today are not the Cymbals mentioned in the Bible and are not the ones that were in use in the church till the mid 19th century. Some of the monasteries have the original cymbals that were used and they are similar to the ones that the Ethiopian church use.

    The ones that are in use today are borrowed from Melekites (al Room).


    That does not address my point. Suppose the cymbals we had in church today are the same, how do they not express joy and praise? Your point is 'Cymbals can be played at any time. They are for rhythm.' What supports that statement? I have no objection to it. In fact, I agree. However, it does not mean that cymbals are not used to express praise and joy as supported by my arguments above. What I am saying is that, in my opinion, neither is wrong.
  • ReturnOrthodoxyReturnOrthodoxy
    ^ agreed ^
  • imikhailimikhail
    [quote author=ShareTheLord link=topic=14383.msg164509#msg164509 date=1368117869]
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=14383.msg164505#msg164505 date=1368113231]
    [quote author=ShareTheLord link=topic=14383.msg164495#msg164495 date=1368104024]
    Then what are the 'Cymbals of Joy'?

    If it were truly just for rhythm, the triento would be sufficient and the cymbals would not be played with a 'musical' beat but instead with singular beats. There seems to be biblical support that cymbals are used for praise (Psalm 150 and Miriam the Prophetess). I'll admit, this is my personal opinion and you may be entirely correct, but you cannot deny the confusion and support for my opinion mentioned above (my opinion was partly influenced by an elderly priest at my church). I have yet to see textual evidence of the rhythm argument, but I would gladly like to be proven wrong!


    The cymbals that we use today are not the Cymbals mentioned in the Bible and are not the ones that were in use in the church till the mid 19th century. Some of the monasteries have the original cymbals that were used and they are similar to the ones that the Ethiopian church use.

    The ones that are in use today are borrowed from Melekites (al Room).


    That does not address my point. Suppose the cymbals we had in church today are the same, how do they not express joy and praise? Your point is 'Cymbals can be played at any time. They are for rhythm.' What supports that statement? I have no objection to it. In fact, I agree. However, it does not mean that cymbals are not used to express praise and joy as supported by my arguments above. What I am saying is that, in my opinion, neither is wrong.


    They do as does any other musical instrument. However, our tradition does not allow the usage of any musical instruments except the vocal chords.

    I am not saying using musical instruments is wrong. It is just our tradition does not permit the usage of musical instruments.

    This is why to say that the cymbals cannot be used at certain times turns them into musical instruments and thus goes against our liturgical tradition.

    This is the reason the original usage of the cymbals in the Coptic Church was for rhythm only and hence my explanation in my earlier post. The kind of cymbals we use nowadays are not the original and need to be thought of as just for rhythm only; contrary to the belief that they are musical instruments.
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