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Ti-Shoree Good Friday

davidschanterdavidschanter
edited December 1969 in Hymns Discussion
Just curious, anyone attend a church were they say both ways of Ti-Shoree on Good Friday? My church did it for the first time this year. We said the more rare one first ending it at "innoub" and then we started the more common one and completed the hymn. Just curious if anyone else does that.
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Comments

  • drewhalim
    I would seriously doubt if anyone does this. Generally speaking when a hymn has varying tunes then a church decides which one to chant but I do not believe the practice of chanting a hymn in all its known ways is recommended as it makes services unnecessarily longer for the congregation and I doubt they will appreciate it.

    I personally first saw this in 2012 when I attended Pope Shenouda's funeral and Ibrahim Ayad chanted it in both tunes. Until this day I do not know why he did and after speaking to various cantors in Cairo they agree there does not seem to be any apparent logic to it either. 
  • morcousw
    At our church we chant it in the more common tune, and then we chant it in the annual tune in English. This is to accommodate our English-only speakers. I don't see a problem with chanting it both ways just because the common way isn't that long.
  • drewhalim
    I think there is a big difference between chanting a hymn in different languages and chanting a hymn in the same language in two different tunes in the same service. I really do love our coptic language and hymns and in the past may have thought nothing of this but as I matured I really learnt that our service is to the people and my opinion, and it is only my opinion, is that the unnecessary repetition of hymns may hinder people from praying rather than encourage or assist.
  • davidschanterdavidschanter
    thanks for pointing out that they said both at the funeral. I was unaware of that. For those who are looking for the footage, it's here:

    starting at 49:37 ending at 57:10

    They were able to finish both hymns in 7 minutes and 30 seconds.
  • ophadeceophadece
    Intention and innovation?
    oujai
  • pp
    Actually Cantor Ibrahim started doing that in Egypt during Good Fridays since 2011 (maybe before). 2011 and 2012 he did that at St. Mary's and St. Athanasius's Coptic Orthodox Church in Nasr City and then again this year at St. Mark's Coptic Orthodox Cathedral in El Abassiya. It's a practice he started so I'm sure it's spread to many other cantors for the sake of not favoring one way over another (since he knows he has a big effect on the way people chant hymns, he wouldn't want to favor either the long unknown way or the short known way so he might as well do both because the short way is really short anyways).
  • drewhalim
    As I say to me it just does not make sense. Can you imagine how long our church services would be if every hymn was chanted in its known long and shorter tune? I could not in all honesty say I could agree and still see it as unnecessary repetition as opposed to prayer. Again I am referring to a hymn chanted multiple times in the same language and not once in Coptic and then English or Arabic. Although with the modern use of screens showing translations I find that the congregation are starting to say they no longer need a hymn or verse to be repeated in order for them to understand.
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=drewhalim link=topic=14408.msg164440#msg164440 date=1367942300]
    As I say to me it just does not make sense. Can you imagine how long our church services would be if every hymn was chanted in its known long and shorter tune? I could not in all honesty say I could agree and still see it as unnecessary repetition as opposed to prayer. Again I am referring to a hymn chanted multiple times in the same language and not once in Coptic and then English or Arabic. Although with the modern use of screens showing translations I find that the congregation are starting to say they no longer need a hymn or verse to be repeated in order for them to understand.

    with ti-shoree, i don't think both ways were categorized to be long or short until m.Ibrahim recorded his new holy week set. M.Tawfeek's was simply another way that actually sounded better because it was more fitting for good friday, hazzat-wise, considering that the original teeshory take a lot of hazzat of hoos erof.

    I am with you on repeating hymns (or even paragraphs of hymns) in the same language. 
  • drewhalim
    I agree in the case of Ti-shori it is more an alternative tune (although still slightly longer) but the principle remains that different versions of hymns should not be needlessly repeated after each other in the same service. Mu'allim Ibrahim does this simply because 'he can' and I cannot see that he could come up with a good enough reason justifying this and repetition in general.

    I also firmly believe that we as deacons who have responsibility of leading or sharing in the leadership of services should not blindly follow what others do without just cause or reasoning. This has become extremely noticeable in the recent years where whatever happens in the Cathedral at Christmas or Easter are duplicate in churches all around the world the following feast.
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=drewhalim link=topic=14408.msg164442#msg164442 date=1367946356]
    I agree in the case of Ti-shori it is more an alternative tune (although still slightly longer) but the principle remains that different versions of hymns should not be needlessly repeated after each other in the same service. Mu'allim Ibrahim does this simply because 'he can' and I cannot see that he could come up with a good enough reason justifying this and repetition in general.

    I also firmly believe that we as deacons who have responsibility of leading or sharing in the leadership of services should not blindly follow what others do without just cause or reasoning. This has become extremely noticeable in the recent years where whatever happens in the Cathedral at Christmas or Easter are duplicate in churches all around the world the following feast.

    i think his reason is to accept all people's opinions and satisfy them. As a leader, he tries to make all happy.

    I don't see the problem with redoing what is done in the Cathedral at anytime, not only in feasts as long as the local deacons of the church agree on it.
  • davidschanterdavidschanter
    I personally don't see the problem of adding 3 minutes to a service to say the other version of the hymn, especially when it is rarely sung. When we decide to say Pekithronos in coptic and english, then we have an issue.
  • dg920
    They only chant the first word. There are other churches that have done it here in the states even before M. Ibrahim did it in Egypt. Both ways have been handed down from M. Mikhail. And he handed one down in the North of Egypt and one in the South. They used to be calle ti shori el ebly. and ti shori el bahary. Then they began to be known as either long or short. Personally because the short one is really short its okay to say both. It really isnt that serious. Plus in the Cathedral they need the time. I actually asked him about it before and they extended parts like thanato in Omonogenees because they were waiting for certain people to arrive. So these also are done when the time permits
  • drewhalim
    Adding 3 minutes is not necessarily the issue and definitely not crime of the century but it can lead to opened floodgates and then who decides where the line should be drawn?

    In regards to Muallim Ibrahim chanting both tunes as a way of declaring acceptance of them both I do not accept at all for two main reasons (1) I watched him learning the longer version during the Iklerikia with students say less than 10 years ago although he was aware of the tune he spent the majority of his life chanting the shorter version and (2) again stemming from the fact that I know him well I also know that if he firmly believes in one version of a hymn, although others may exist, he will never chant or teach the others.

    It is fact that Muallim Mikhail taught both versions of the hymn and neither are wrong but unnecessary repetition cannot be classed as prayer. When Muallim Tawfik was asked about the two versions his response was the shorter one should be kept for the liturgy and the longer one reserved for Good Friday.

    BTW there does actually exist a third Alexandrian version not so well known and there was an online recording that used to be on coptichymns.net by Muallim Habib Hanna El Mirahimi. I suppose once that is learnt all three versions will be chanted?

  • davidschanterdavidschanter
    I agree with that. And maybe this is something the Coptic Church will start to pick up. If we go down this route, a lot of the liturgy can be removed because of repetition. Even if it was passed down that certain things should be in certain orders, the average church isn't like a monastery where the congregation comes at the appropriate hour and is dismissed at the appropriate time. Anyone can go through the liturgy and point out several prayers that we repeat.
    But my personal opinion is that some things should be conserved and utilized to add richness to the prayers of the coptic congregation.

    The acceptance to repeat hymns/prayers that we see probably stems from our very nature as a church. We say "Thok tetigom" 72 times in the span of 3 hours, we say "Lord Have Mercy" I don't know how many times, and the liturgy has it's share of prayers like the our Father and the Thanksgiving prayer.

    If the powers that be continue to allow this type of repetition, I wouldn't be upset. I would just continue to do what I normally do and go with the flow. Sit down in the liturgy when there is prolonged prayer whether it be in a language I am unfamiliar with or a hymn unknown to me. It can be argued that we just give the congregation more tools to pray with by repeating hymns/prayers. It is up to them to pick and choose what they want to pray with.
  • ophadeceophadece
    So we should manipulate the church rites to please people? Oh, how can I argue that? At the end of the day, the big motto should follow: rites were made for man, not vice versa. Ah, OK, I see...
    Oujai qen `P[C
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=ophadece link=topic=14408.msg164458#msg164458 date=1368033492]
    So we should manipulate the church rites to please people? Oh, how can I argue that? At the end of the day, the big motto should follow: rites were made for man, not vice versa. Ah, OK, I see...
    Oujai qen `P[C

    you do know that there is a difference between alhan and toqous right?....The rites of a liturgical service do not always specify what way hymns are to be chanted in. When they do....then it's fine to me.
  • ophadeceophadece
    But they do state for hymns to be said when and where? Do they state for the hymns to be said "more than once"? I disagree.
    Indeed what would you say about a bishop who says "beswma nem be'snof nda bemonoganais bannoudi" 4 times? Or a bishop who adds 50 prostrations (mataneyas) for Virgin Mary after the 400 on Good Friday? Slightly different, but ...?
    Oujai qen `P[C
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=ophadece link=topic=14408.msg164464#msg164464 date=1368035541]
    But they do state for hymns to be said when and where? Do they state for the hymns to be said "more than once"? I disagree.

    in some cases. but it is ACCEPTABLE to do so. You cannot just lean to one extreme and leave the other. Our Church doesn't work that way...and it will never.

    Indeed what would you say about a bishop who says "beswma nem be'snof nda bemonoganais bannoudi" 4 times?

    i won't say anything. i would accept what he says abd i wouldn't mind it.

    Or a bishop who adds 50 prostrations (mataneyas) for Virgin Mary after the 400 on Good Friday? Slightly different, but ...?
    Oujai qen `P[C

    this on the other hand is differnt. it goes against our belief to do metanya's for the Virgin or anyone else in fact. especially on that day. and yet, if a bishop was there and just says do 100 more metanias, i would not ask why, i would just do it.
  • ophadeceophadece
    OK, so we agree to disagree about all those issues then.
    Oujai qen `P[C
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=ophadece link=topic=14408.msg164471#msg164471 date=1368036350]
    OK, so we agree to disagree about all those issues then.
    Oujai qen `P[C

    what we say here DOES NOT MATTER AT ALL! Two kinds of people come to the forum,
    1-those who look for information, ask question and get answers, find nice readings....
    2-those who cannot speak out in real life for something they believe--that which is probably not accepted by much people (hence the not speaking-out part). so they come here, put all those beliefs thinking that it's gonna actually change people or anything to spread their beliefs.....but the reality is, nothing changes and they are the only people who gain because it satisfies their need to spread their beliefs (if they are fully true, or semi-true, or not at all).

    My comments are general....they are not towards you ophadece or anyone else specific. it's just what i ahve been seeing for the many years i have been here on the forum.
  • ophadeceophadece
    That tells me you have serious depreciating problems of either yourself, or this forum. I for one have learnt a great great deal from you and other members of this forum. I do apply this knowledge in my church, both Sunday school and hymns discussions
    oujai
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=ophadece link=topic=14408.msg164480#msg164480 date=1368042457]
    That tells me you have serious depreciating problems of either yourself, or this forum. I for one have learnt a great great deal from you and other members of this forum. I do apply this knowledge in my church, both Sunday school and hymns discussions
    oujai

    then you are simply in the first category....i guess i left out the category that give the answers to many questions and clarify many matters.

    also, i do have to admit that the forum is nothing like it was a couple of years ago. most knowledgeable people left because there was no control on other's responses. some jumped from the old coptichymns.net to her as it was decommissioned (and i am happy for that). We need more admins and more moderators and with those, hopfully we get more knowledgeable user who ask more valid and important questions that will bring more fruitful answers. the only reason i am actually on the forum all the time is i work from home where i always have the window open to follow up with posts.
    I am not undermining the current users or the posts but i am simply comparing the times.
  • ophadeceophadece
    I certainly don't understand commissioned or decommissioned but if you want my opinion, it isn't even wise to compare the times. With simple and repetitive posts people may learn more than from complicated and sophisticated science fiction stuff..
    oujai
  • meanzmeanz
    Sorry im not too sure what you guys mean when you say a different tune for ti shori? you mean the long tune?
  • davidschanterdavidschanter
    [quote author=Pi Onkh link=topic=14408.msg164488#msg164488 date=1368062750]
    Sorry im not too sure what you guys mean when you say a different tune for ti shori? you mean the long tune?


    yea there are two ways to say it on Good Friday (apparently 3 but I am unaware of the 3rd way):
    http://tasbeha.org/media/index.php?st=Hymns/Holy_Week/Higher_Institute_of_Studies/cd3/track_13.1062.mp3

    http://tasbeha.org/media/index.php?st=Hymns/Holy_Week/Ibrahim_Ayad/Part_5/04-Tishouree.1656.mp3

    Also, if you use the youtube link I posted earlier you'll find them both said at Pope Shenouda's funeral.
  • Faithfull Servant 1
    Does anyone know where we can find a recording of the third type of Tishoree?
    Just curious to know how it sounds.

    God Bless
  • drewhalim
    The third version is Alexandrian and if I were to describe it then I would say it is a hymn of very random hezaat and not systematic or repetitive at all. I think someone would need to contact Fr Moses Samaan for a copy that used to be on coptichymns.net
  • Faithfull Servant 1
    Does anyone know how to contact Fr Moses? i.e. email, phone number, church, blood type :P

    God Bless
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=Faithfull Servant 1 link=topic=14408.msg164521#msg164521 date=1368238925]
    Does anyone know where we can find a recording of the third type of Tishoree?
    Just curious to know how it sounds.

    God Bless

    pm or email Wagdi Bishara
  • Faithfull Servant 1
    Thanks Mina

    God Bless
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