Hello my fellow sisters and brothers in christ.
I hate to be judgemental, but lately i have noticed a trend that has been irritating me, and i dont think its acceptable. The American raised priests have started a modo were they keep their beards very short, to the point were they can be mistaken for a normal person. I even know of an American priest who had a long beard and cut it down by a large chunk in order to follow this new modo. So i won't be accused for being a tacksie freak, I will post this verse.
Leviticus 19:27
You shall not shave around the sides of your head, nor shall you disfigure the edges of your beard.
I would like to hear some feedback.
P. S if your name is Peter Saad, and you dont know how to speak in a respectful and hummle manner, then don't say anything.
I hope i have made myself clear.
Comments
:o
you need to take it in context.
;)
They represent our Church and should be tidy and neat.
In middle ages all males had a beard. That was such a time. It is not a dogma but custom.
I like when priests and monks have a short beard.
They represent our Church and should be tidy and neat.
In middle ages all males had a beard. That was such a time. It is not a dogma but custom.
Why have a beard at all then?
Why have a beard at all then?
It is a tradition. Not dogma.
IS OUTRAGE! LOL
In my opinion monks should grow their beard, whereas priests may trim and even shave (istaghfur Allah.)
RO
Just desert monks have a long one.
http://beforeitsnews.com/christian-news/2013/02/some-english-coptic-icons-2468458.html
http://www.fresnocopticchurch.org/Jigsaw1.php
http://www.conservapedia.com/File:Crucifixion_coptic_painting.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_WVgwFfuERjQ/TUepDiGrxjI/AAAAAAAAAeU/3ipbP4k6CYo/s1600/St.%2BMakarios%2Bthe%2BGreat%2B-%2BSt%2BMaximos%2B-%2BSt%2BDomadios.jpg
http://www.wmatiasart.com/
Some Coptic monk who live in deep desert of course he can have a long beard.
But someone who live in New York why should he must to?
As we can see on Coptic icons even the apostles and other saints have short beard.
Anathema! Anathema! Anathema!
IS OUTRAGE! LOL
In my opinion monks should grow their beard, whereas priests may trim and even shave (istaghfur Allah.)
RO
But why even leave a beard if you're trimming? There would be no significance. It's always been my impression that the beard (not shaving/trimming your beard) not only sets you apart, but has always been a sign of consecration. So if you're trimming, what the point of leaving a tiny bit? lol
but has ALWAYS been a sign of consecration.
No, it is part of OUR tradition in the East. Other Christian priests was ALWAYS without beard, in the West.
But it is a tradition. There is an eastern priests and monks without beard, at least in EO, and western ones with beard.
I do want to make the point that im not saying priests need to have their beards as long as HGBD. But at the same time there beards should be to short to the point were it becomes distinguishable that they are not a priest. For example if i could use some priests from the east coast. For Example Abouna Mark Hanna and Abouna Kyrillos Saad from East Bruns, have reliatavely short pirests. However they can be distinguished as being priests and not laymen.
The church is not bound by any of the laws of the Old Testament, unless it chooses to uphold them.
How do we know which is which?
How do we know which is which?
We listen the Church.
[quote author=PopeKyrillos link=topic=14452.msg164887#msg164887 date=1369951552]
The church is not bound by any of the laws of the Old Testament, unless it chooses to uphold them.
How do we know which is which?
Can you elaborate on your question?
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=14452.msg164978#msg164978 date=1370544143]
[quote author=PopeKyrillos link=topic=14452.msg164887#msg164887 date=1369951552]
The church is not bound by any of the laws of the Old Testament, unless it chooses to uphold them.
How do we know which is which?
Can you elaborate on your question?
What I am getting at is there is no written document that explains or lists which laws or commands from the Old Testament are to be followed and which are not. Some wee know through church canons, others through the church prayers and rituals, and others through oral tradition.
If we were ever to be united with the Catholic Church, we would not impose on them that their priests would have to start growing beards. As far as I know, this issue isn't even on the table for Ecumenical unity.
that is true and it makes sense. Many traditional sister orthodox churches have priest who do trim there beards and even shave.
[quote author=dthoxsasiPhilanethrope link=topic=14452.msg164984#msg164984 date=1370558422]
If we were ever to be united with the Catholic Church, we would not impose on them that their priests would have to start growing beards. As far as I know, this issue isn't even on the table for Ecumenical unity.
that is true and it makes sense. Many traditional sister orthodox churches have priest who do trim there beards and even shave.
This is also fine .. Tradition and rituals do differ among sister churches. So, as members of the Coptic Church, we need to be aware of our Church tradition.
BTW the Latins had fights over the issue of the beard throughout their history. They trim their beards in the West and wear them in the East.
[quote author=dthoxsasiPhilanethrope link=topic=14452.msg164984#msg164984 date=1370558422]
If we were ever to be united with the Catholic Church, we would not impose on them that their priests would have to start growing beards. As far as I know, this issue isn't even on the table for Ecumenical unity.
that is true and it makes sense. Many traditional sister orthodox churches have priest who do trim there beards and even shave.
Even bishops in the Armenian church!
I think it's petty honestly to complain of Coptic priests trimming their beards. And giving away names of priests as examples is also inappropriate. I suppose we should also tell them to avoid cutting their hair and become a Nazirite!
It ranged from the way people prayed, to what was even preached in Church.
I realized that my being uncomfortable with certain issues had so many parallels with extremist muslims. Unless women wear the Hijab, they are immoral and unislamic, unless men grow their beards, they are immoral and unislamic... etc.. i was becoming the Orthodox equivalent of this.
I think we need to live in humility in faith. Living in humility doesn't necessarily mean being indifferent (i.e. not caring about what is orthodox or not), but to not judge others who fail short of any standard we uphold to.
If there's anything we've learnt from the coming of Christ and His life amongst us, is that the law was made for Man, man was not made for the Law.
This is the message I will leave you with concerning this issue. Its up to each one of us to apply this in his or her life also. We cannot go around like the "Islamic religious police" enforcing laws on others in a way like this.
There are MANY things which a priest is meant to do that is beyond growing his beard. Our priests fall short on many items on this checklist also. Why do priests have to wear gowns and not trousers? Why do priests have shoes and not sandals like the priests in the olden days? The list is endless.
If you remember, one reason why priests are meant to get married and are encouraged to get married in our Church is that they are part of our community, they live with us, they have the same life as us. Surely therefore, if they are LIVING amongst us, they ought to look like us at least?? or as FAR AS POSSIBLE???
I was walking in Paris last week opposite the Eiffel Tower, and I came across a man sitting down at a cafe. He had a long long beard, an Islamic skullcap (headcap), and wore a long long black gown. He was wearing sandals also. He was talking loudly in Arabic with a guy sitting next to him, and I automatically assumed he was a salafist.
I was a bit sad to see that Islamic extremists were now in my area of paris.
As I passed by, I realised that he was wearing a cross, and was obviously a priest.
The cafe where he was sitting was a Catholic Cafe (there are a few of them in Paris). The priest didn't know that, but if the owners knew he was a priest, they'd have offered him free coffee.. They used to allow the Catholic Church to do as they pleased there.
Your attire, as a priest, is meant to make you PART of a community, not estranged from it.
Yes there were times when clergy wore attire that was forced upon them. However, wearing the traditional clerical attire is essential for pastoral care.
What is preached in church is essential to Orthodoxy! You should be bothered if things are preached which are not Orthodox. It is your duty as an Orthodox Christian to be able to discern what is consistent with faith and what has been polluted by this wave of Protestantism which is entering our church slowly but surely.
A priest is certainly not a priest based on his facial hair, although it is a small t tradition. St. Augustine even went as far as saying, "The beard is a masculine ornament, given to us by God not for any practical use, but for our dignity!"
I always refer to this quote when I get chastised for growing my beard out!
But we must be very strict with regards to the faith and what is preached in the church. It saddens me that I very rarely hear the fathers in Coptic priests' sermons, and some have erroneous ideas on redemption and salvation which is very Western in origin. Lord have mercy.
The problem goes back to lack of education. It astonishes me that clergy in the Coptic Orthodox Church can be ordained with very little to even Zero seminary training in theology, patristics, and pastoral care issues (counseling, etc.)
May God help us all. Very interesting thread.
Christ is Risen
doxasiphilanthrope,
What is preached in church is essential to Orthodoxy! You should be bothered if things are preached which are not Orthodox. It is your duty as an Orthodox Christian to be able to discern what is consistent with faith and what has been polluted by this wave of Protestantism which is entering our church slowly but surely.
A priest is certainly not a priest based on his facial hair, although it is a small t tradition. St. Augustine even went as far as saying, "The beard is a masculine ornament, given to us by God not for any practical use, but for our dignity!"
I always refer to this quote when I get chastised for growing my beard out!
But we must be very strict with regards to the faith and what is preached in the church. It saddens me that I very rarely hear the fathers in Coptic priests' sermons, and some have erroneous ideas on redemption and salvation which is very Western in origin. Lord have mercy.
The problem goes back to lack of education. It astonishes me that clergy in the Coptic Orthodox Church can be ordained with very little to even Zero seminary training in theology, patristics, and pastoral care issues (counseling, etc.)
May God help us all. Very interesting thread.
Christ is Risen
I love your point of view. It is very correct and noble.
I never actually advocated for priests to shave. Did I??
It's a tough situation.