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Is sin separation from God?
When we sin are we separated from God? Are we no longer in communion with Him?
A part of me thinks "no". We are all sinners and we all sin...but I wouldn't say that we are all therefore separated from God.
This question arises from this passage:
Any thoughts or resources on the topic are greatly appreciated.
A part of me thinks "no". We are all sinners and we all sin...but I wouldn't say that we are all therefore separated from God.
This question arises from this passage:
This seems to imply that sinning or begin a sinner doesn't cause separation from God, but it is heresy that does...It was said concerning Abba Agathon that some monks came to find him having heard tell of his great discernment. Wanting to see if he would lose his temper they said to him 'Aren't you that Agathon who is said to be a fornicator and a proud man?' 'Yes, it is very true,' he answered. They resumed, 'Aren't you that Agathon who is always talking nonsense?' 'I am." Again they said 'Aren't you Agathon the heretic?' But at that he replied 'I am not a heretic.' So they asked him, 'Tell us why you accepted everything we cast you, but repudiated this last insult.' He replied 'The first accusations I take to myself for that is good for my soul. But heresy is separation from God. Now I have no wish to be separated from God.' At this saying they were astonished at his discernment and returned, edified.
Any thoughts or resources on the topic are greatly appreciated.
Comments
Heresy has to do with faith and accepting the Truth. A heretic does not submit to the Truth, does not want to listen to the Truth and thus is separated from it. So long as the heretic believes his heresy he will never realize his error and thus would not repent; he rejects the Holy Spririt - the Spirit of Truth.
Our Lord admonished the Jews for not accepting Him as God and thus they were separated from God and were the sons of the devil:
"If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it." John 8:42-44
Sin, on the other hand, is due to the weakness of the flesh and so long we are in the flesh we struggle against sin and if we fall we do return to God for forgiveness.
Hope this helps.
There is a difference between heresy and sinning as a result of spiritual weakness.
Heresy has to do with faith and accepting the Truth. A heretic does not submit to the Truth, does not want to listen to the Truth and thus is separated from it. So long as the heretic believes his heresy he will never realize his error and thus would not repent; he rejects the Holy Spririt - the Spirit of Truth.
Our Lord admonished the Jews for not accepting Him as God and thus they were separated from God and were the sons of the devil:
"If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it." John 8:42-44
Sin, on the other hand, is due to the weakness of the flesh and so long we are in the flesh we struggle against sin and if we fall we do return to God for forgiveness.
Hope this helps.
imikhail,
thank you, that did help a bit.
But I don't think you addressed my question: is sin separation from God? I know heresy is separation from God...but does sin produce the same outcome? Maybe it is a different type of separation?
Sin is definitely separation from God. Sin is darkness and when we commit sin we separate ourselves from God. However, that does not mean that the Holy Spirit leaves us, it means that we reject His conviction. We are still God's sons but in a state of sin.
This is like the prodigal son. By his own choice he separated himself from the father, yet he did not cease to be his father's son, the relationship continued and his father was awaiting his return.
Adam separated himself from God when he disobeyed, yet he was still God's son Luke 3:38. God still took care of him and was preparing for his return.
It all has to do with the mind set. Sinning out of weakness eventually leads to remorse and repentance. The person in this state does not reject the work of the Holy Spirit Who convicts because of sin (John 10). So long the person realizes his mistake and repents, he comes back to communion with God.
With that said, a heretic rejects the motherhood of the Church through whom the communion with God is possible. In essence, a heretic closes the door of repentance by his own will. There is no possibility for a heretic to come back to God even if he leads a righteous life or repents of a wrongdoing, other than the heresy, at his deathbed. This is what St Agathon was rejecting.
Hope this helps
Much clearer, but are you saying there is no repentance and forgiveness for heresy?
A heretic does not listen to the Church and refuses submission. He cuts himself from God's congregation. If he repents, then he is no longer a heretic.
The insults Abba Aghathon endured had to with sins that result out of being in the flesh; fornication, empty words, ... which are obvious and are easily recognized when pointed out through spiritual discernment.
A heretic is likened to the Pharisees who thought through their own righteousness they are close to God and they had no need for the right faith delivered to the Church.
"A man had two sons, and he came to the first and said, 'Son, go, work today in my vineyard.' He answered and said, 'I will not,' but afterward he regretted it and went. 30 Then he came to the second and said likewise. And he answered and said, 'I go, sir,' but he did not go. Which of the two did the will of his father?" They said to Him, "The first." Jesus said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you that tax collectors and harlots enter the kingdom of God before you." Matthew 21:28-31
So, it seems that heresy and sin have the same result, that is, separation from God. But that the former seems to be a somehow greater separation...
I gather from your posts that this is because in heresy God's Spirit leaves the person, whereas in sin, He remains...is that right?
Person A is a church goer, participates in the sacraments, reads the bible. However, this person falls in a particular sin and he is overwhelmed by its sting. But once he falls, he knows God's mercy is there for him. So, he falls on his knees prays and ask for forgiveness ....
Person B does not go to the church, does not really care about the church does not participate in her liturgical life and does what his heart desires. But once he listens to God's word, he reacts to it and repents.
Person C leads a righteous life but is not a believer and insists that his views of the faith is the correct ones though this faith is against the Church's.
To me Person A and B are separate from God while sinning but are willing to come back. They do open the door so that the Son and the Father may sup with them. God's grace has an effect on them.
Person C refuses God's work in them, are not willing to listen to the Holy Spirit's conviction. They are not willing to listen. Out of their own will, they separate themselves with full knowledge.
If person C dies without repentance, the Church will not pray on him for he excommunicated himself and rejected the Holy Spirit. There is no hope for person C.
How do you feel about repentance without confession? From an Orthodox understanding, can a person's sin be forgiven if they are in a state of repentance, though they willingly reject confession to a priest? I was asked by someone, though never having thought about it before, it was a difficult to formulate a response.
For all we know, the answer is a big fat NO their sins cannot be forgiven.
With God anything is possible but we should never be presumptuous and assume God will forgive sins without us doing our bit - that's called synergy.
How do you feel about repentance without confession? From an Orthodox understanding, can a person's sin be forgiven if they are in a state of repentance, though they willingly reject confession to a priest? I was asked by someone, though never having thought about it before, it was a difficult to formulate a response.
If the person repents and did not have the opportunity to confess before a priest, then God will certainly forgive him as the church absolves him during the funeral prayer.
But if the person did not confess out of pride or out of lack of faith in the sacrament of repentance and confession, then God will not forgive him since he was not absolved on earth.
When we sin are we separated from God? Are we no longer in communion with Him?
A part of me thinks "no". We are all sinners and we all sin...but I wouldn't say that we are all therefore separated from God.
This question arises from this passage: This seems to imply that sinning or begin a sinner doesn't cause separation from God, but it is heresy that does...
Any thoughts or resources on the topic are greatly appreciated.
Maybe try to look at Abba Agathon's response from a path that is common with many other fathers...it may help to clear up where your confusion arose.
A reoccurring path that the fathers walked on, is to consider themselves chief of all sinners, because it is good for a soul to know itself. Knowing our sinfulness brings a soul closer to God, and in turn, through drawing closer and knowing God, we see our sins and deficiency. Maybe this was why Abba Agathon said that accepting rebuke of this kind is 'good for the soul'. I hardly think that he would mean sin is not a separation from God.
Hypothetically speaking, if he may have said 'I don't accept the rebuke of sin because it is separation from God', then humility would draw far from him and not considering himself a sinner would harm him.
He wouldn't accept the rebuke of heresy maybe because it doesn't have to do with humbling his soul but it deals with the right way to glorify God ...so he basically took care of two things in one occasion (taking care of his soul whilst holding his faith) and shows his discernment between the two.