In my honest experience, there is an unhealthy hatred for Islam in our community. Do you agree or disagree with that statements and those of Medhi Hasan's? If you disagree, what are you doing to better the situation?
Is there a public stance from the Coptic Church that states we should otherwise not treat our fellow human beings with the same respect with which we treat our own brothers and sisters?
The Coptic Church prays for all Muslims. We are told to love one another and our church's viewpoint hasn't changed since the beginning.
Even after the over 70 violent events committed against us by Muslims since 1960, such as putting a bomb in a car right outside a church during midnight mass and blowing it up killing innocent kids and moms and dads and cousins and people that we will never see on this earth again. Or at Nag Hammadi when again Muslims started shooting and killing innocent people after midnight mass. Or when Muslims started firing at the Cathedral and killing people. Ever since Islam took over Egypt in the 4th Century Egypt has declined as a country and has been oppressed by Islamic rulers and the Christian people themselves were singled out and made to pay extra taxes and persecuted and forced to wear blue hats and blue vestments so the Christian people stick out. Not until recently were Christians even allowed to enter government because of Islamic laws. The School of Alexandria was the greatest school on the planet until Islam took over Egypt and the Khalifa ordered all the over 600,000 books and manuscripts to be burned. Even after all of that, we are told to love and pray for you and that's exactly what we have done since the beginning.
I understand you are trying to politely find an answer to your question, but I don't know if you knew this background info because if you did you would understand why it is offensive to us to wonder why we have "hatred" toward a group of people who have oppressed us greatly when we have actually showed love towards your Islamic people.
geomike's right, the general consensus is to pray for Muslims. However it is pretty hard for the oppressed to like/enjoy/be nice to their oppressor.... perhaps more people should understand that loving people for the sake of God and because it is the right thing to do is very different than actually liking them.
[quote author=rebecca.ann link=topic=14562.msg165531#msg165531 date=1375678223] geomike's right, the general consensus is to pray for Muslims. However it is pretty hard for the oppressed to like/enjoy/be nice to their oppressor.... perhaps more people should understand that loving people for the sake of God and because it is the right thing to do is very different than actually liking them.
Thanks rebecca, and you're so right, it is really hard to do with these circumstances but that's another reason why I love our Coptic Orthodox Church because it advocates love without bound no matter what they have done because God forgave and loved us so we should do likewise and forgive and love others. It's not about hating the person, but it's about hating the sin and loving the person
In my honest experience, there is an unhealthy hatred for Islam in our community. Do you agree or disagree with that statements and those of Medhi Hasan's? If you disagree, what are you doing to better the situation?
Is there a public stance from the Coptic Church that states we should otherwise not treat our fellow human beings with the same respect with which we treat our own brothers and sisters?
There is nothing called an "unhealthy" hatred for Islam. Islam is an ideology.
If you were to say is there "an unhealthy hatred for Muslims" then this would resonante with me as this would be a crime. But there is not. There is a very healthy hatred against Islam, because this religion in particular has caused a lot of torment.
Let me be TOTALLY honest with you here:
Muslims in Egypt have said this so many times: they are embarrassed to say they are muslims sometimes at the things muslims have done in the name of their religion. They themselves believed that Islamic extremism or fanaticism was only done by a small group of crazy Talibans or radicals from Somalia.
When the Muslim Brotherhood came into power, they clearly felt embarrassed as they could clearly see that their president was a terrorist (Morsi). He was asking for the release of other terrorists from the USA (Omar Abd il Rahman) and instated the head of Gamaa Al Islamiya's head as the governor of Luxor. (if you remember, the Gamaa al Islamiya was responsible for the massacre of 64 tourists in Luxor in 1997 - so appointing the head of this terrorist group as the governor of Luxor spoke volumes).
Right now, as we speak, there is a division happening in Islam: Moderate Muslims have spoken out against Extremism and are distancing themselves from the MB and their ideology. Islam is NOT a peaceful religion because it is hardcoded to subdue violently other minorities.
You can argue and say that the MB or Al-Qaida have mis-interpreted Islam, but if Islam was a peaceful religion any mis-interpretation would not result in the kind of catastrophic violence we have seen in Syria, Egypt, Lebanon, Somalia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, etc... the list is endless!!!!
All these catastrophies and u still are trying to sell us that Islam is a religion of peace?
"WE DO NOT WANT A TERRORIST PRESIDENT, NOR A WAHABI DOSTOR/CONSTITUTION".
Did you read the above statement? Did you!! READ IT WELL. Read it again, for this is what muslims in June 30 were chanting whilst demanding the removal of Morsi. Coptic Christians didn't say that,. I can tell you, I was shocked to see a man with his Hijabi wife chant this at the rally.
Is Islam a peaceful religion? No. And there's NOTHING wrong in hating it. Hating Islam doesn't make me anti-Muslim, it doesn't mean I'm racist. I hate it when muslims play the "race card" when someone hates Islam. Islam is NOT a race, its an ideology.
Why should I like Islam for? I think its healthy to hate certain things that make u lose respect for it. Islam has totally lost my respect. There's NOTHING u can do to change my opinion.
It DOES NOT MEAN that I hate muslims. On the contrary. I am beginning to find them very interesting - if they are practicing muslims, how on earth could they turn their backs against an organisation like the MB that wants to implement Sharia Law in Egypt? Do they not want Sharia? If so, then how are they muslims? How can that be? Its the duty of every Muslim to struggle to implement Sharia in any land they are in.
These "anti-Morsi" supporters are asking now (through Tamarod) that the US and EU consider the MB as a terrorist organisation.
That speaks volumes.
If those practicing and living according to the Quran and considered as terrorists, why the heck are u asking us to like Islam and consider it a peaceful religion, when muslims themselves do not??
What's really awful in all this is that Copts are religious people. We are very conservative. Do you not think that theoretically, we would benefit from laws that were conservative? Do you not think that we would benefit from what Islam has to offer? Because Islam teaches hatred towards non-muslims, we find ourselves at odds with this religion.
Before coming on this forum asking us to love Islam, GO AND ASK the 33 MILLION EGYPTIANS who protested against Morsi to love Islam first. If they loved Islam they'd have stuck with Morsi. I have 100's of Youtube videos of TV celebrities in Egypt saying how embarassed they are of Morsi and the MB.
If Muslims really are following a peaceful religion then let them kill those terrorists behind all these murders. Well maybe not kill them now as they have not been warned. Imprison them and send them to america to be imprisoned so they never get out and give them a reason to feel remorse on this earth. Obviously Islam is not a religion of tolerance. Let them admit this atleast. I can see why they are angry as people trying to convert others from what they think is true (that is not decided by me if that is right or wrong) just let them admit that they are angry because they know Islam does not tolerate people trying to convert others though Christianity does allow free will Maybe it is necessary to warn them from now on and then to execute justice (i.e to kill them) if they really love their fellow Christians and Jews as their Quran is supposed to teach. Unless the Church would like to offer more martyrdom for the sake of the terrorists also because they think their faith is perfect. How can we know if Islamic people are really peaceful people if they can't do anything to show for it? do they atleast mourn for their fellow christians?
In all honesty I do not see how killing anyone even terrorists will do any good and it is wrong even Jesus forbids it I think
Which brings me to ask the question is the just execution of terrorists the end of that persons chance for salvation ?
If people have died without receiving Jesus because I have preached a heresy and I repent are they going to hell while I am saved because I am repentant ? If my sisters husbands family dies non orthodox because I have not preached orthodoxy and they die non orthodox Catholics and I repent can I be saved ? And will they be given a chance after death or did I ruin their chances of being saved how can we be sure God gave them the greatest chance ? that is a problem I have with my understanding of Christianity that I can be saved though I made others to be lost
If Islam is a peaceful religion, why is it even being debated that its NOT a peaceful religion? Why isn't Haagen Dasz icecream, the Simpsons or Hinduism being debated as being "peaceful".
Why is Islam being questioned as to whether its peaceful or not??
Muslims look to themselves and say "Islam must be peaceful, BECAUSE I am peaceful, I want peace and I love peace". They don't look at the small print at what their religion is asking them.
Look at the educational curriculum in Egypt - it teaches HATRED for the sake of God. Is islam peaceful? NO!! 100000000000 x's NO! ITS NOT A PEACEFUL religion. Discrimination is an attribute of someone who hates. Hatred is not peaceful - islam is not peaceful.
with all honesty every religion will always have a person that will hate it... I personally love all religions, and take what I think will help me grow, and leave what will not... I remember when I was learning Islam, I went to the mosque, and I was welcomed and I was shown hospitality that I have not seen in some other places of worship. through this experience I learned how to agree to disagree... but it is not reason to hate the person. there is good in every religion, and some truth in every religion. Egyptian Christian Copts were hurt by Islam a lot, that is why we hold such a grudge against the religion and the people... but some of the most close people to me are muslim, and I have nothing against them, and I would give my life up for them, as they would for me.
a little thing we should think of... yes the Quran has killing and things that does not make sense to us, but if we say this is the whole religion, we are at err. If we say this and believe that, then they have the right to say there is murder and rape and a lot of things of that sort in the bible... you see, there are people that read the bible and thought it is okay to murder for the name of God, as the Crusades (who started by monks) did. the same is in Islam, there are people who read and take what is written in a literal meaning, but there are MANY more who don't.
Keep in mind, there are millions of muslims, but thousands of terrorists, you cannot judge a full group of people by a minority, that would just be mere stupidity, and you would be opening the door for others to take your text in literal terms also, which is something that Jesus himself told us not to do.
[quote author=✞SuperMAN✞(BAM)✞ link=topic=14562.msg165554#msg165554 date=1375807416] with all honesty every religion will always have a person that will hate it... I personally love all religions, and take what I think will help me grow, and leave what will not... I remember when I was learning Islam, I went to the mosque, and I was welcomed and I was shown hospitality that I have not seen in some other places of worship. through this experience I learned how to agree to disagree... but it is not reason to hate the person. there is good in every religion, and some truth in every religion. Egyptian Christian Copts were hurt by Islam a lot, that is why we hold such a grudge against the religion and the people... but some of the most close people to me are muslim, and I have nothing against them, and I would give my life up for them, as they would for me.
a little thing we should think of... yes the Quran has killing and things that does not make sense to us, but if we say this is the whole religion, we are at err. If we say this and believe that, then they have the right to say there is murder and rape and a lot of things of that sort in the bible... you see, there are people that read the bible and thought it is okay to murder for the name of God, as the Crusades (who started by monks) did. the same is in Islam, there are people who read and take what is written in a literal meaning, but there are MANY more who don't.
Keep in mind, there are millions of muslims, but thousands of terrorists, you cannot judge a full group of people by a minority, that would just be mere stupidity, and you would be opening the door for others to take your text in literal terms also, which is something that Jesus himself told us not to do.
I can remember when I was learning Islam, too. Everyone was so nice and loving, I felt like I found a second family.....fast forward 4 years when I was asking the community for help to leave an horrible abusive marriage; Islam pretty much justified what was done to me AND so did my so called new family. My son's father beat my little boy because he stutters and refused to pray but hey, if your boy is a certain age and he doesn't it is OK by Islam. Anyway....
While I love every person for the sake of God, I find it very hard to see much that is worth defending in Islam itself when we get down to the basics. I see many more Muslims willing to twist the words of the Quran and Hadith versus Christians trying to do so with the Bible. I do have a few good moderate Muslim friends still that I would move mountains for and vice versa.
We are not judging Islam on terrorists or people in general, rather doctrine which depending on who reads it can easily justify such evil acts.
Dear superman, The difference between crusades and islam, is that the former was done for political reasons and words of the Bible misinterpreted to accommodate such goals. They happened only in one era as far as I know, not on the scale of islam where a good percentage of muslims believe in those beliefs across the ages and do that everywhere against fellow muslims, Christians, Jews, and pretty much anyone who disagrees with their dogmas, not necessarily for political reasons Oujai
I can learn something from your post SUPERMAN(BAM) however the Qurans command for murder is applicable for today unlike in the bible they also scourge and kill other sinners and chop off the hands of thieves God was present in the OT commanding killing and was an authority all the nations could believe in if they wanted to where is that Gods presence an signs in Islam ? what is wrong with Islam so that people should become Christians apart from believing the scriptures of the bible which you say brother is no more moral and peacemaking than Islam The Law of the LORD is perfect converting the soul
As for killing of people in islam for a sin we know man can not cleanse the earth from sinners by force according to Jesus (see the parable of the tares and the wheat) which is why He made the new covenant God is patient many times and does not execute punishments straightaway
you are the one who yourself said to me who is more beautiful than Jesus?
The threadstarter has not responded back to any of the numerous responses provided here. I think we have provided more than enough info here. He/she either is really busy and therefore didn't respond to these posts or he/she made this thread with the sole purpose of invoking heated discussions which we will not give them the courtesy of seeing because we are better than that. I am glad that we have been very respectful to each other so far in this thread and I just want to make sure it stays this way and that nothing said here will cause us to lose our temper or professionalism, we are Orthodox Christians and let's not forget that. You may continue discussion or wait till the threadstarter comments back, I am not trying to stop anything, just wanted to point out that the threadstarter dropped a thread and bailed so we should be careful in our discussions with such controversial topics such as these. Thanks
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=14562.msg165568#msg165568 date=1375859078] Dear superman, The difference between crusades and islam, is that the former was done for political reasons and words of the Bible misinterpreted to accommodate such goals. They happened only in one era as far as I know, not on the scale of islam where a good percentage of muslims believe in those beliefs across the ages and do that everywhere against fellow muslims, Christians, Jews, and pretty much anyone who disagrees with their dogmas, not necessarily for political reasons Oujai
A big part of the crusades were done to re-patriate land back to Christians that were taken by muslims, including the Holy Land.
I have studied Islam from the Islamic point of view, as I have other religions. I can argue much of the things said about the Bible, but this is not the point. My beloved, my post in short is, "don't judge, lest you be also judged."
My beloved, a statement that was beyond beauty was said by anba Roufail in his interview during the papal selections, when he was asked about the growth of atheism. He responded with the root of the problem is negative comparative theology, when two people start attacking each other's religions, they will only bring the negatives in each other's religions, now the third person who listens will only see the negatives in both religions, which in return will cause him/her to to think all religions are bad.
that is why I say, there is good in every religion, focus on the good, and let God judge the bad.
now for my beloved in Christ, Rebecca, I'm very sorry to hear about your situation, but my beloved what gain would we gain if we discuss the negatives of a religion as others did? have faith in God, and focus on God... I remember when I was going to the Masque regularly, I used to pray the lord's prayer, and other prayers, while everyone's praying their prayer... the only time one can have a comparative theological debate, is if both sides are well versed in each other's faith, and the teaching of the elders of both religions. Another thing along this point, if I were to come and debate you about your faith, and the first thing I utter out of my mouth is, "your faith is wrong, your faith only talks about killing people, etc..." what will be going through your head as you listen to me? you will only think of how you can attack me back, and it will only make you stick harder to what you believe. on the other side, I told you, " I agree with this verse, I love how the religions teaches such and such... but, there are somethings I disagree with, like for example, such and such" now can you tell me which is a healthier debate?
my beloved geomike, there is nothing more beautiful than Jesus, but as a person who represents the Christ, we have to show the beauty of Jesus through our speech, or their blood will be on your hand... if you misrepresent Jesus through aggressive speech, don't you think He will come one day and ask you about the people He put in your way, but were cast away due to our speech? that is why I choose not to debate religions, but if I'm invited to do so, I respond with all respect to that religions, so as I mentioned before, their hearts would not be hardened, but have a healthy discussion.
forgive me to all those who I'm not responding to them personally, but I'm not debating, nor am I saying what I said is what I believed, for what I said is misconceptions that would be used to attack Christianity by other faiths. But one thing I will respond to, the Crusades as the leaders, it was for political reasons, but those who fought, were fighting for religious reasons...
[quote author=✞SuperMAN✞(BAM)✞ link=topic=14562.msg165587#msg165587 date=1375907821] my beloved geomike, there is nothing more beautiful than Jesus, but as a person who represents the Christ, we have to show the beauty of Jesus through our speech, or their blood will be on your hand... if you misrepresent Jesus through aggressive speech, don't you think He will come one day and ask you about the people He put in your way, but were cast away due to our speech? that is why I choose not to debate religions, but if I'm invited to do so, I respond with all respect to that religions, so as I mentioned before, their hearts would not be hardened, but have a healthy discussion.
forgive me to all those who I'm not responding to them personally, but I'm not debating, nor am I saying what I said is what I believed, for what I said is misconceptions that would be used to attack Christianity by other faiths. But one thing I will respond to, the Crusades as the leaders, it was for political reasons, but those who fought, were fighting for religious reasons...
Superbam, I am not telling you that you are being harsh or wrong because you aren't I am simply providing a warning to everybody, myself included. I have been on these forums for many years and I have seen random people making accounts and trying to start a topic that they know will anger people so I am just putting it out there that this may be a thread created with that intention. Continue discussing because I have no right at all to just stop a conversation, that's not right, but I am just making sure we are all aware of the situation so we don't fall into wrong.
A defense of Islam is not necessary. In matters of whether it is a peaceful religion, such a debate is unnecessary. As to whether or not it is true, the answer is that it is not. This is not a misconception. Islam is false. Period at the end. This is a judgment of the religion and not the people, and this a perfectly fine judgment, similar to the judgment of Christ that "salvation is of the Jews," or that the Samaritans "do not know who they worship."
Islam is false. It cannot be defended against itself
Only Christianity is the true religion. All other counterfeits are nothing but falsehood, and the most a "defense" of them can do is slap lipstick on a pig.
[quote author=ReturnOrthodoxy link=topic=14562.msg165589#msg165589 date=1375908525] A defense of Islam is not necessary. In matters of whether it is a peaceful religion, such a debate is unnecessary. As to whether or not it is true, the answer is that it is not. This is not a misconception. Islam is false. Period at the end. This is a judgment of the religion and not the people, and this a perfectly fine judgment, similar to the judgment of Christ that "salvation is of the Jews," or that the Samaritans "do not know who they worship."
Islam is false. It cannot be defended against itself
Only Christianity is the true religion. All other counterfeits are nothing but falsehood, and the most a "defense" of them can do is slap lipstick on a pig.
Ray
Ray, no one is defending Islam, even though the title of this thread is "In defense of Islam". The problem is not what Islam is or isn't. The problem is when Christians judge and condemn all Muslims for the actions of a few. Islam will not get anyone to heaven but neither will a judging Christianity.
All the Christian commandments can be summed up into one: "Love the Lord your God and your neighbor as yourself." And your neighbor as St Luke explicitly tells us is "He [the Samaritan who is the enemy] who showed mercy on him [a Jewish victim]". My enemy is my neighbor. If I don't show mercy and love to my enemy, then I am not Christian.
This topic started as a question about hatred to Islam. Justified or not, all hatred is enmity with God. There is no such thing as healthy hatred in Christianity. The topic moved into asking if Islam was a peaceful religion. Whether or not Islam is peaceful, Christians who have hate towards Islam make Christianity a religion of hate. The beam in our own eye needs to finally come out. In modern colloquialism, the 800 pound gorilla hiding in the closet is not Islam and physical Islamic attacks on Christians, but Christian hate attacks on Islam. (Unless of course, one claims Christianity is not a religion of peace but a religion of hate)
I'm not lacking love towards Muslims. But the point stands. Islam is Satanic since it rejects Christ. And we know that every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is the spirit of Antichrist.
What judgment is in saying that Islam is satanic? Yes I love Muslims. Too much to allow that satanism to infect them and our world. May God bring back on us the days of those fearless men and women who dashed idols to the ground.
Muslims go and take over the entire middle east by the sword and violence. Read about the fall of Constantinople - the Agia Sophia Mosque was once a Church. Its like taking over the vatican and St Peter's Basilica and converting it into a mosque. This isn't a little chapel in the middle of nowhere!
When Europe responded with the crusades, they get upset.
So why do muslims look at the Crusades as bad yet their own history of entering a sovereign country, exploiting its resources, forcing people into Islam and staying there seem OK for them?
Look: this topic is defending islam - isn't it? Its defending the idea that Islam is a religion of peace.
Well, let's stick to facts. Look at the Education Curriculum in Egypt. Children from an early age are taught that to love "Allah" - you must hate the kafireen and infidels. You must show them displeasure and smite them. You must discriminate against them.
Are there any adjectives or adverbs in this above statement concerning the islamic educational curriculum that promote peace, love and tolerance?? NONE.
So, just stick to facts.
Do I hate Islam? Its barbaric. The average muslim has more values, morals, decency, responsibility than what his god is asking of him. Hence you have "peaceful" muslims. Let them follow their Quran and follow their islamic educational curriculum, you have a good muslim, and what most people would term a terrorist.
Comments
Even after the over 70 violent events committed against us by Muslims since 1960, such as putting a bomb in a car right outside a church during midnight mass and blowing it up killing innocent kids and moms and dads and cousins and people that we will never see on this earth again. Or at Nag Hammadi when again Muslims started shooting and killing innocent people after midnight mass. Or when Muslims started firing at the Cathedral and killing people. Ever since Islam took over Egypt in the 4th Century Egypt has declined as a country and has been oppressed by Islamic rulers and the Christian people themselves were singled out and made to pay extra taxes and persecuted and forced to wear blue hats and blue vestments so the Christian people stick out. Not until recently were Christians even allowed to enter government because of Islamic laws. The School of Alexandria was the greatest school on the planet until Islam took over Egypt and the Khalifa ordered all the over 600,000 books and manuscripts to be burned.
Even after all of that, we are told to love and pray for you and that's exactly what we have done since the beginning.
I understand you are trying to politely find an answer to your question, but I don't know if you knew this background info because if you did you would understand why it is offensive to us to wonder why we have "hatred" toward a group of people who have oppressed us greatly when we have actually showed love towards your Islamic people.
geomike's right, the general consensus is to pray for Muslims. However it is pretty hard for the oppressed to like/enjoy/be nice to their oppressor.... perhaps more people should understand that loving people for the sake of God and because it is the right thing to do is very different than actually liking them.
Thanks rebecca, and you're so right, it is really hard to do with these circumstances but that's another reason why I love our Coptic Orthodox Church because it advocates love without bound no matter what they have done because God forgave and loved us so we should do likewise and forgive and love others. It's not about hating the person, but it's about hating the sin and loving the person
Medhi Hasan's defense of Islam.
http://www.upworthy.com/a-totally-mesmerizing-insanely-eloquent-defense-of-islam-that-your-brain-will-thank-you-for?g=2&c=uctw1
In my honest experience, there is an unhealthy hatred for Islam in our community. Do you agree or disagree with that statements and those of Medhi Hasan's? If you disagree, what are you doing to better the situation?
Is there a public stance from the Coptic Church that states we should otherwise not treat our fellow human beings with the same respect with which we treat our own brothers and sisters?
There is nothing called an "unhealthy" hatred for Islam. Islam is an ideology.
If you were to say is there "an unhealthy hatred for Muslims" then this would resonante with me as this would be a crime. But there is not. There is a very healthy hatred against Islam, because this religion in particular has caused a lot of torment.
Let me be TOTALLY honest with you here:
Muslims in Egypt have said this so many times: they are embarrassed to say they are muslims sometimes at the things muslims have done in the name of their religion. They themselves believed that Islamic extremism or fanaticism was only done by a small group of crazy Talibans or radicals from Somalia.
When the Muslim Brotherhood came into power, they clearly felt embarrassed as they could clearly see that their president was a terrorist (Morsi). He was asking for the release of other terrorists from the USA (Omar Abd il Rahman) and instated the head of Gamaa Al Islamiya's head as the governor of Luxor. (if you remember, the Gamaa al Islamiya was responsible for the massacre of 64 tourists in Luxor in 1997 - so appointing the head of this terrorist group as the governor of Luxor spoke volumes).
Right now, as we speak, there is a division happening in Islam: Moderate Muslims have spoken out against Extremism and are distancing themselves from the MB and their ideology. Islam is NOT a peaceful religion because it is hardcoded to subdue violently other minorities.
You can argue and say that the MB or Al-Qaida have mis-interpreted Islam, but if Islam was a peaceful religion any mis-interpretation would not result in the kind of catastrophic violence we have seen in Syria, Egypt, Lebanon, Somalia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, etc... the list is endless!!!!
All these catastrophies and u still are trying to sell us that Islam is a religion of peace?
"WE DO NOT WANT A TERRORIST PRESIDENT, NOR A WAHABI DOSTOR/CONSTITUTION".
Did you read the above statement? Did you!! READ IT WELL. Read it again, for this is what muslims in June 30 were chanting whilst demanding the removal of Morsi. Coptic Christians didn't say that,. I can tell you, I was shocked to see a man with his Hijabi wife chant this at the rally.
Is Islam a peaceful religion? No. And there's NOTHING wrong in hating it. Hating Islam doesn't make me anti-Muslim, it doesn't mean I'm racist. I hate it when muslims play the "race card" when someone hates Islam. Islam is NOT a race, its an ideology.
Why should I like Islam for? I think its healthy to hate certain things that make u lose respect for it. Islam has totally lost my respect. There's NOTHING u can do to change my opinion.
It DOES NOT MEAN that I hate muslims. On the contrary. I am beginning to find them very interesting - if they are practicing muslims, how on earth could they turn their backs against an organisation like the MB that wants to implement Sharia Law in Egypt? Do they not want Sharia? If so, then how are they muslims? How can that be? Its the duty of every Muslim to struggle to implement Sharia in any land they are in.
These "anti-Morsi" supporters are asking now (through Tamarod) that the US and EU consider the MB as a terrorist organisation.
That speaks volumes.
If those practicing and living according to the Quran and considered as terrorists, why the heck are u asking us to like Islam and consider it a peaceful religion, when muslims themselves do not??
What's really awful in all this is that Copts are religious people. We are very conservative. Do you not think that theoretically, we would benefit from laws that were conservative? Do you not think that we would benefit from what Islam has to offer? Because Islam teaches hatred towards non-muslims, we find ourselves at odds with this religion.
Before coming on this forum asking us to love Islam, GO AND ASK the 33 MILLION EGYPTIANS who protested against Morsi to love Islam first. If they loved Islam they'd have stuck with Morsi. I have 100's of Youtube videos of TV celebrities in Egypt saying how embarassed they are of Morsi and the MB.
Obviously Islam is not a religion of tolerance. Let them admit this atleast. I can see why they are angry as people trying to convert others from what they think is true (that is not decided by me if that is right or wrong)
just let them admit that they are angry because they know Islam does not tolerate people trying to convert others though Christianity does allow free will
Maybe it is necessary to warn them from now on and then to execute justice (i.e to kill them) if they really love their fellow Christians and Jews as their Quran is supposed to teach. Unless the Church would like to offer more martyrdom for the sake of the terrorists also because they think their faith is perfect. How can we know if Islamic people are really peaceful people if they can't do anything to show for it? do they atleast mourn for their fellow christians?
In all honesty I do not see how killing anyone even terrorists will do any good
and it is wrong even Jesus forbids it I think
If people have died without receiving Jesus because I have preached a heresy and I repent are they going to hell while I am saved because I am repentant ?
If my sisters husbands family dies non orthodox because I have not preached orthodoxy and they die non orthodox Catholics and I repent can I be saved ? And will they be given a chance after death or did I ruin their chances of being saved how can we be sure God gave them the greatest chance ?
that is a problem I have with my understanding of Christianity that I can be saved though I made others to be lost
Why is Islam being questioned as to whether its peaceful or not??
Muslims look to themselves and say "Islam must be peaceful, BECAUSE I am peaceful, I want peace and I love peace". They don't look at the small print at what their religion is asking them.
Look at the educational curriculum in Egypt - it teaches HATRED for the sake of God. Is islam peaceful? NO!! 100000000000 x's NO! ITS NOT A PEACEFUL religion. Discrimination is an attribute of someone who hates. Hatred is not peaceful - islam is not peaceful.
a little thing we should think of... yes the Quran has killing and things that does not make sense to us, but if we say this is the whole religion, we are at err. If we say this and believe that, then they have the right to say there is murder and rape and a lot of things of that sort in the bible... you see, there are people that read the bible and thought it is okay to murder for the name of God, as the Crusades (who started by monks) did. the same is in Islam, there are people who read and take what is written in a literal meaning, but there are MANY more who don't.
Keep in mind, there are millions of muslims, but thousands of terrorists, you cannot judge a full group of people by a minority, that would just be mere stupidity, and you would be opening the door for others to take your text in literal terms also, which is something that Jesus himself told us not to do.
with all honesty every religion will always have a person that will hate it... I personally love all religions, and take what I think will help me grow, and leave what will not... I remember when I was learning Islam, I went to the mosque, and I was welcomed and I was shown hospitality that I have not seen in some other places of worship. through this experience I learned how to agree to disagree... but it is not reason to hate the person. there is good in every religion, and some truth in every religion. Egyptian Christian Copts were hurt by Islam a lot, that is why we hold such a grudge against the religion and the people... but some of the most close people to me are muslim, and I have nothing against them, and I would give my life up for them, as they would for me.
a little thing we should think of... yes the Quran has killing and things that does not make sense to us, but if we say this is the whole religion, we are at err. If we say this and believe that, then they have the right to say there is murder and rape and a lot of things of that sort in the bible... you see, there are people that read the bible and thought it is okay to murder for the name of God, as the Crusades (who started by monks) did. the same is in Islam, there are people who read and take what is written in a literal meaning, but there are MANY more who don't.
Keep in mind, there are millions of muslims, but thousands of terrorists, you cannot judge a full group of people by a minority, that would just be mere stupidity, and you would be opening the door for others to take your text in literal terms also, which is something that Jesus himself told us not to do.
I can remember when I was learning Islam, too. Everyone was so nice and loving, I felt like I found a second family.....fast forward 4 years when I was asking the community for help to leave an horrible abusive marriage; Islam pretty much justified what was done to me AND so did my so called new family. My son's father beat my little boy because he stutters and refused to pray but hey, if your boy is a certain age and he doesn't it is OK by Islam. Anyway....
While I love every person for the sake of God, I find it very hard to see much that is worth defending in Islam itself when we get down to the basics. I see many more Muslims willing to twist the words of the Quran and Hadith versus Christians trying to do so with the Bible. I do have a few good moderate Muslim friends still that I would move mountains for and vice versa.
We are not judging Islam on terrorists or people in general, rather doctrine which depending on who reads it can easily justify such evil acts.
The difference between crusades and islam, is that the former was done for political reasons and words of the Bible misinterpreted to accommodate such goals. They happened only in one era as far as I know, not on the scale of islam where a good percentage of muslims believe in those beliefs across the ages and do that everywhere against fellow muslims, Christians, Jews, and pretty much anyone who disagrees with their dogmas, not necessarily for political reasons
Oujai
however the Qurans command for murder is applicable for today unlike in the bible
they also scourge and kill other sinners and chop off the hands of thieves
God was present in the OT commanding killing and was an authority all the nations could believe in if they wanted to where is that Gods presence an signs in Islam ?
what is wrong with Islam so that people should become Christians apart from believing the scriptures of the bible which you say brother is no more moral and peacemaking than Islam
The Law of the LORD is perfect converting the soul
As for killing of people in islam for a sin we know man can not cleanse the earth from sinners by force according to Jesus (see the parable of the tares and the wheat) which is why He made the new covenant
God is patient many times and does not execute punishments straightaway
you are the one who yourself said to me who is more beautiful than Jesus?
Dear superman,
The difference between crusades and islam, is that the former was done for political reasons and words of the Bible misinterpreted to accommodate such goals. They happened only in one era as far as I know, not on the scale of islam where a good percentage of muslims believe in those beliefs across the ages and do that everywhere against fellow muslims, Christians, Jews, and pretty much anyone who disagrees with their dogmas, not necessarily for political reasons
Oujai
A big part of the crusades were done to re-patriate land back to Christians that were taken by muslims, including the Holy Land.
I have studied Islam from the Islamic point of view, as I have other religions. I can argue much of the things said about the Bible, but this is not the point. My beloved, my post in short is, "don't judge, lest you be also judged."
My beloved, a statement that was beyond beauty was said by anba Roufail in his interview during the papal selections, when he was asked about the growth of atheism. He responded with the root of the problem is negative comparative theology, when two people start attacking each other's religions, they will only bring the negatives in each other's religions, now the third person who listens will only see the negatives in both religions, which in return will cause him/her to to think all religions are bad.
that is why I say, there is good in every religion, focus on the good, and let God judge the bad.
now for my beloved in Christ, Rebecca, I'm very sorry to hear about your situation, but my beloved what gain would we gain if we discuss the negatives of a religion as others did? have faith in God, and focus on God... I remember when I was going to the Masque regularly, I used to pray the lord's prayer, and other prayers, while everyone's praying their prayer... the only time one can have a comparative theological debate, is if both sides are well versed in each other's faith, and the teaching of the elders of both religions. Another thing along this point, if I were to come and debate you about your faith, and the first thing I utter out of my mouth is, "your faith is wrong, your faith only talks about killing people, etc..." what will be going through your head as you listen to me? you will only think of how you can attack me back, and it will only make you stick harder to what you believe. on the other side, I told you, " I agree with this verse, I love how the religions teaches such and such... but, there are somethings I disagree with, like for example, such and such" now can you tell me which is a healthier debate?
my beloved geomike, there is nothing more beautiful than Jesus, but as a person who represents the Christ, we have to show the beauty of Jesus through our speech, or their blood will be on your hand... if you misrepresent Jesus through aggressive speech, don't you think He will come one day and ask you about the people He put in your way, but were cast away due to our speech? that is why I choose not to debate religions, but if I'm invited to do so, I respond with all respect to that religions, so as I mentioned before, their hearts would not be hardened, but have a healthy discussion.
forgive me to all those who I'm not responding to them personally, but I'm not debating, nor am I saying what I said is what I believed, for what I said is misconceptions that would be used to attack Christianity by other faiths. But one thing I will respond to, the Crusades as the leaders, it was for political reasons, but those who fought, were fighting for religious reasons...
my beloved geomike, there is nothing more beautiful than Jesus, but as a person who represents the Christ, we have to show the beauty of Jesus through our speech, or their blood will be on your hand... if you misrepresent Jesus through aggressive speech, don't you think He will come one day and ask you about the people He put in your way, but were cast away due to our speech? that is why I choose not to debate religions, but if I'm invited to do so, I respond with all respect to that religions, so as I mentioned before, their hearts would not be hardened, but have a healthy discussion.
forgive me to all those who I'm not responding to them personally, but I'm not debating, nor am I saying what I said is what I believed, for what I said is misconceptions that would be used to attack Christianity by other faiths. But one thing I will respond to, the Crusades as the leaders, it was for political reasons, but those who fought, were fighting for religious reasons...
Superbam, I am not telling you that you are being harsh or wrong because you aren't I am simply providing a warning to everybody, myself included. I have been on these forums for many years and I have seen random people making accounts and trying to start a topic that they know will anger people so I am just putting it out there that this may be a thread created with that intention. Continue discussing because I have no right at all to just stop a conversation, that's not right, but I am just making sure we are all aware of the situation so we don't fall into wrong.
Islam is false. It cannot be defended against itself
Only Christianity is the true religion. All other counterfeits are nothing but falsehood, and the most a "defense" of them can do is slap lipstick on a pig.
Ray
"Honor all people. Love the brotherhood"
A defense of Islam is not necessary. In matters of whether it is a peaceful religion, such a debate is unnecessary. As to whether or not it is true, the answer is that it is not. This is not a misconception. Islam is false. Period at the end. This is a judgment of the religion and not the people, and this a perfectly fine judgment, similar to the judgment of Christ that "salvation is of the Jews," or that the Samaritans "do not know who they worship."
Islam is false. It cannot be defended against itself
Only Christianity is the true religion. All other counterfeits are nothing but falsehood, and the most a "defense" of them can do is slap lipstick on a pig.
Ray
Ray, no one is defending Islam, even though the title of this thread is "In defense of Islam". The problem is not what Islam is or isn't. The problem is when Christians judge and condemn all Muslims for the actions of a few. Islam will not get anyone to heaven but neither will a judging Christianity.
All the Christian commandments can be summed up into one: "Love the Lord your God and your neighbor as yourself." And your neighbor as St Luke explicitly tells us is "He [the Samaritan who is the enemy] who showed mercy on him [a Jewish victim]". My enemy is my neighbor. If I don't show mercy and love to my enemy, then I am not Christian.
This topic started as a question about hatred to Islam. Justified or not, all hatred is enmity with God. There is no such thing as healthy hatred in Christianity. The topic moved into asking if Islam was a peaceful religion. Whether or not Islam is peaceful, Christians who have hate towards Islam make Christianity a religion of hate. The beam in our own eye needs to finally come out. In modern colloquialism, the 800 pound gorilla hiding in the closet is not Islam and physical Islamic attacks on Christians, but Christian hate attacks on Islam. (Unless of course, one claims Christianity is not a religion of peace but a religion of hate)
What judgment is in saying that Islam is satanic? Yes I love Muslims. Too much to allow that satanism to infect them and our world. May God bring back on us the days of those fearless men and women who dashed idols to the ground.
Ray
Oujai
When Europe responded with the crusades, they get upset.
So why do muslims look at the Crusades as bad yet their own history of entering a sovereign country, exploiting its resources, forcing people into Islam and staying there seem OK for them?
Look: this topic is defending islam - isn't it? Its defending the idea that Islam is a religion of peace.
Well, let's stick to facts. Look at the Education Curriculum in Egypt. Children from an early age are taught that to love "Allah" - you must hate the kafireen and infidels. You must show them displeasure and smite them. You must discriminate against them.
Are there any adjectives or adverbs in this above statement concerning the islamic educational curriculum that promote peace, love and tolerance?? NONE.
So, just stick to facts.
Do I hate Islam? Its barbaric. The average muslim has more values, morals, decency, responsibility than what his god is asking of him. Hence you have "peaceful" muslims. Let them follow their Quran and follow their islamic educational curriculum, you have a good muslim, and what most people would term a terrorist.