My sister is dating a Polish Catholic guy. I just found out and I am not happy about it at all. No one in my family agrees and keeps on telling her that we don't approve and that she needs to marry from the church. She talked to Abouna and brought him to Abouna and Abouna told her that he approves but then told my mom that he wouldn't let his daughter do the same thing (Big ??????? in my head). I'm not really sure what to do because I don't want to make her angry and like leave the house because it is "her life". I won't accept a non-coptic orthodox person into my family.
Comments
This is a tough situation when one is surprised concerning marriage. Two things I would advise. First, this isn't about you and your willingness to accept a non-Orthodox person into your family. This isn't about what Abound would accept for his own daughter. It is about the person God has chosen for your sister before the foundation of time. I'm not saying it is this particular person but don't assume God's will is not for your sister to marry a non-Coptic man. Secondly, love defeats all evil. If you interact with your sister and her boyfriend with love, it may move his heart to become Coptic. And maybe this is what God wanted all along.
May God reveal His divine plan for your family.
or is he just catholic by name only and spends his sundays in nightclubs? (in which case i understand your concern).
there are not many orthodox Christians in poland, so it's not surprising to find a polish person being catholic!
if he loves God, i think you should give them some time and space to work it out.
it could be worse, he's not a drug dealer or an extremist member of another religion...
No one is asking the right questions.
The Catholics are our brothers.
a) Will they marry in the Orthodox or Catholic Church?
b) is your sister practicing catholicism? Does she go to their Church? or does she just like a guy that happens to be Catholic?
Indeed, its best if both are Orthodox, or both are Catholic in marriage... but at least thank God that he's not protestant.. that would be very hard! Especially if he was an extremist / evangelical... he'd have a fit in our Church!
c) Is he willing to learn about Orthodoxy? To accept that this is something valuable to her?
I think they both should get married in the Orthodox Church anyway because he can always go to his catholic church when he wants - he becomes backward compatible. The other way isn't always possible.
To answer questions:
She is not, nor ever will be Catholic.
I'm not sure if he loves God (I really hope he does) but I don't know how devout he is to the Catholic Church.
The gentleman is CATHOLIC - not protestant.
Of course it is better to marry someone of the same denomination, but I see it differently here:
Catholics are Apostolic - they are therefore Sacramental. That's a good start.
Secondly, what on earth is the probability of finding someone Orthodox in the Diaspora? Seriously?
let her liver her life as she pleases, you cannot force her to do what you think is right, give her your opinion and bud out! she chooses to marry him, so be it. She chooses to leave the church, so be it. He decides to convert for her (and focus on how I worded this), so be it. when Augustine was living a life of sin, his mother didn't force him to come back, but rather she prayed for him and cried to God, so HE would lead her son.
I know she's your sister, and you want the best for her... but be careful or you will NOT have a sister... if all of you keep fighting her and what she wants, she will go against all of you, even against God himself, because of you... do you want that burden?
I speak of full knowledge of this topic for I too was in your situation... but in my case, we spoke to the two of them, and he ended up converting and married her. I'm happy with my brother-in-law, because he knows how to respect and I'm assured of his love to her. not only this, but I too am in an interfaith relationship, and this girl is beyond an angel, that I would not find one like her if I were to travel the earth and back, which would include the Coptic Church.
So let her live her life and don't lose a sister... would you rather have a sister who doesn't go to church, but there is hope since there is no barrier between her and you, or would you rather have a "dead" sister, who will cut off all communication and has no hope of coming back?
be wise, focus on your life and your afterlife, and let her worry about hers!
See, I was about to fall in the same situation with a girl I wanted to be with, she was protestant, and she didn't have the tendency to try my orthodox church, and then i thought, if we got married, we have to stay in the same church, if she gave away her church she will feel like a hypocrite as she doesn't like my church and if I gave away my church I'll feel like my faith is not complete, try to convince your sister, ask her critical questions like if their daughter/son asked them one day, does purgatory exist, what would they respond, would they tell him that it's doesn't exist as the orthodox church teaches or that it exists like the catholic church does.
Listen, they have to choose one church, tell them to read and study and then choose, don't force her to the orthodox church, you know I went to the protestant church for months and then after some research I knew that the orthodox church is the right one.
God be with you all, tell me about the progress.
The thing is they both keep their religion but the kids are confused. And if the father is a muslim, the kids are most likely to be muslims too
At least he is a Catholic!!!
But the thing is, this is not your decision to make, and announcing that you will not accept a Catholic into your family will not do your sister any good.
All you can do is point out that religion is a big issue and they should throughly discuss about it and decide what is best for them! Pray for them but your involvement in the issue should stop there!!!
P.S - I don't get the Abouna though
is she an adult?... if she is, keep out of her business!
let her liver her life as she pleases, you cannot force her to do what you think is right, give her your opinion and bud out! she chooses to marry him, so be it. She chooses to leave the church, so be it. He decides to convert for her (and focus on how I worded this), so be it. when Augustine was living a life of sin, his mother didn't force him to come back, but rather she prayed for him and cried to God, so HE would lead her son.
I know she's your sister, and you want the best for her... but be careful or you will NOT have a sister... if all of you keep fighting her and what she wants, she will go against all of you, even against God himself, because of you... do you want that burden?
I speak of full knowledge of this topic for I too was in your situation... but in my case, we spoke to the two of them, and he ended up converting and married her. I'm happy with my brother-in-law, because he knows how to respect and I'm assured of his love to her. not only this, but I too am in an interfaith relationship, and this girl is beyond an angel, that I would not find one like her if I were to travel the earth and back, which would include the Coptic Church.
So let her live her life and don't lose a sister... would you rather have a sister who doesn't go to church, but there is hope since there is no barrier between her and you, or would you rather have a "dead" sister, who will cut off all communication and has no hope of coming back?
be wise, focus on your life and your afterlife, and let her worry about hers!
Im not trying to divert the topic here, but do you, or anyone here agree that Catholics are Apostolic and its better to marry a Catholic than a protestant?
I know 1 guy who is coptic who married a protestant, and I have no idea how he can be happy - she keeps on attacking his faith to the point of ridicule.
Im not trying to divert the topic here, but do you, or anyone here agree that Catholics are Apostolic and its better to marry a Catholic than a protestant?
I know 1 guy who is coptic who married a protestant, and I have no idea how he can be happy - she keeps on attacking his faith to the point of ridicule.
Hi Zoxasi,
Allow me to give my personal opinion to your question.
First, due to the fact that we believe protestants are non-apostolic, a orthodox-protestant marriage will present itself with heavy struggles.
For the second case. Yes, catholics are apostolic. However, in my opinion, a catholic-orthodox marriage also has potential to present itself with heavy struggles. What is the point of marriage other than to reach the heavenly kingdom? She/He must comparable to him/her. It is not because it is more 'ok' to marry a catholics that makes it more recommended. Most catholic-orthodox marriages I know faced excessive struggles. That is not to say, an orthodox-orthodox marriage would not present any struggles or potentially worse struggles, no.
Two great orthodox-orthodox servants, if they do not approach their spiritual life in the same way and have no idea how to lead the life the way their partner does, will most assuredly face heavy struggles too. That's not even considering those within the orthodox-orthodox marriages that struggles due to the simple fact that God isn't a core part of their relation.
Now, the reason I say this, is to pin point the obvious struggle that will come with a catholic-orthodox marriage. The two have been raised completely differently. Their approach to spiritual life is different. The weight of importance to different aspect in the way to lead a spiritual life are different (naming the simple obvious differences such as agepya, fasting, liturgies, etc..). The basic foundation of the marriage is unfortunately much more difficult to build as both people in the relationship have completely different ways of building the foundation.
So, is the catholic-orthodox better than a protestant-orthodox marriage?
Well, I personally believe the question is misleading. Because, yes, it is more 'ok'. But no, I personally would not recommend it. It isn't impossible to lead. God is above all. But the first step of an already extremely difficult path is made even harder due to the different upcomings.
[quote author=dthoxsasiPhilanethrope link=topic=14610.msg166210#msg166210 date=1381243448]
Im not trying to divert the topic here, but do you, or anyone here agree that Catholics are Apostolic and its better to marry a Catholic than a protestant?
I know 1 guy who is coptic who married a protestant, and I have no idea how he can be happy - she keeps on attacking his faith to the point of ridicule.
Hi Zoxasi,
Allow me to give my personal opinion to your question.
First, due to the fact that we believe protestants are non-apostolic, a orthodox-protestant marriage will present itself with heavy struggles.
For the second case. Yes, catholics are apostolic. However, in my opinion, a catholic-orthodox marriage also has potential to present itself with heavy struggles. What is the point of marriage other than to reach the heavenly kingdom? She/He must comparable to him/her. It is not because it is more 'ok' to marry a catholics that makes it more recommended. Most catholic-orthodox marriages I know faced excessive struggles. That is not to say, an orthodox-orthodox marriage would not present any struggles or potentially worse struggles, no.
Two great orthodox-orthodox servants, if they do not approach their spiritual life in the same way and have no idea how to lead the life the way their partner does, will most assuredly face heavy struggles too. That's not even considering those within the orthodox-orthodox marriages that struggles due to the simple fact that God isn't a core part of their relation.
Now, the reason I say this, is to pin point the obvious struggle that will come with a catholic-orthodox marriage. The two have been raised completely differently. Their approach to spiritual life is different. The weight of importance to different aspect in the way to lead a spiritual life are different (naming the simple obvious differences such as agepya, fasting, liturgies, etc..). The basic foundation of the marriage is unfortunately much more difficult to build as both people in the relationship have completely different ways of building the foundation.
So, is the catholic-orthodox better than a protestant-orthodox marriage?
Well, I personally believe the question is misleading. Because, yes, it is more 'ok'. But no, I personally would not recommend it. It isn't impossible to lead. God is above all. But the first step of an already extremely difficult path is made even harder due to the different upcomings.
+1
Very well said. I think such a relationship could be a nightmare if both were practicing.
I know so many traditionalist catholics who think the Copts in particular are just heretics. Can you imagine raising 2 kids in a family where one parent thinks the religion of the other is heretical??
Its awful. Im so sad for our youth outside Egypt - those in Egypt will have no money to get married, and those outside Egypt will have money but no one to get married to. Wow.
[quote author=✞SuperMAN✞(BAM)✞ link=topic=14610.msg166051#msg166051 date=1379959122]
is she an adult?... if she is, keep out of her business!
let her liver her life as she pleases, you cannot force her to do what you think is right, give her your opinion and bud out! she chooses to marry him, so be it. She chooses to leave the church, so be it. He decides to convert for her (and focus on how I worded this), so be it. when Augustine was living a life of sin, his mother didn't force him to come back, but rather she prayed for him and cried to God, so HE would lead her son.
I know she's your sister, and you want the best for her... but be careful or you will NOT have a sister... if all of you keep fighting her and what she wants, she will go against all of you, even against God himself, because of you... do you want that burden?
I speak of full knowledge of this topic for I too was in your situation... but in my case, we spoke to the two of them, and he ended up converting and married her. I'm happy with my brother-in-law, because he knows how to respect and I'm assured of his love to her. not only this, but I too am in an interfaith relationship, and this girl is beyond an angel, that I would not find one like her if I were to travel the earth and back, which would include the Coptic Church.
So let her live her life and don't lose a sister... would you rather have a sister who doesn't go to church, but there is hope since there is no barrier between her and you, or would you rather have a "dead" sister, who will cut off all communication and has no hope of coming back?
be wise, focus on your life and your afterlife, and let her worry about hers!
Im not trying to divert the topic here, but do you, or anyone here agree that Catholics are Apostolic and its better to marry a Catholic than a protestant?
I know 1 guy who is coptic who married a protestant, and I have no idea how he can be happy - she keeps on attacking his faith to the point of ridicule.
I don't know how what you said has to do with what I posted or why my post is quoted, but let me respond to the question you asked... no.
I don't know how what you said has to do with what I posted or why my post is quoted, but let me respond to the question you asked... no.
You don't think it makes a difference if your future partner is protestant or catholic?
That's remarkable.
So, you believe the exact opposite as ShareTheLord.
I was asking as I was curious to what others think. I think you'll have a huge problem raising the kids with such an environment. The kids usually follow the religion of the mother. If their mom teaches them that their dad is worshipping icons, then they'll grow up believing that even if you don't.
I don't see why the fuss is all about, you choose a person for who they are not what religion they are, your religion is not your personality not who you are! I would not mind marrying a woman that is not Christian and living with her for the rest of my life, the only problem is the children, but if you agree that the children will be taught a religion (which sometimes I question also) then there is no problem.
you gave me cases of interfaith not working and I showed you personal cases where it is working... but let me go back to my original post and say stay out of their business, when its your situation then by all means discuss it, otherwise I'm sure the people that are in the situation have consulted priests or whoever and are dealing with it in the right manner!
I don't see why the fuss is all about, you choose a person for who they are not what religion they are, your religion is not your personality not who you are! I would not mind marrying a woman that is not Christian and living with her for the rest of my life, the only problem is the children, but if you agree that the children will be taught a religion (which sometimes I question also) then there is no problem.
This is certainly not the view of everyone in the Church. A person's "religion" (i.e. them being an Orthodox Christian) is surely an integral part of a successful marriage and the best possible foundation for children to be brought up in the Orthodox Faith. How will your spouse bring you closer to God if they do not believe in the importance of liturgical prayer and the Eucharist being the Body and Blood of Christ (e.g. if they were one of many Protestant sects)? How will the "two become one" if one spouse does not believe in the action of the Holy Spirit in the Sacrament of Marriage?
I absolutely agree with the earlier posters in the thread who said that it makes a "mockery" of both the Sacrament and God.
If God is supposed to be the integral direct focus of your life, and if you believe that Orthodoxy is a true path that can lead those who struggle through the narrow way to eternal life, how can you possibly have your companion through the journey of life, your other half, leading you down a different path?
At any rate, those are my own personal thoughts.
I would not mind marrying a woman that is not Christian and living with her for the rest of my life, the only problem is the children,
:o :o :o
my childhood friend married someone who was not Christian.
the last 15 years have been hard for her...
[quote author=✞SuperMAN✞(BAM)✞ link=topic=14610.msg166224#msg166224 date=1381418824]
I would not mind marrying a woman that is not Christian and living with her for the rest of my life, the only problem is the children,
:o :o :o
my childhood friend married someone who was not Christian.
the last 15 years have been hard for her...
I don't think you can change a person. Either they naturally become a Christian, like everyone else who is a Christian, or they don't.
I mean, a girl may not have known God, and then she may know God, and develop a spirituality where she needs God. That's OK. But if you marry someone who is not a Christian, I find it hard to understand how you can make ends meet?
As I mentioned before; I know this guy who only got baptised on his wedding day so he could get married. The wife was a practicing Catholic.
But this chap hates the Church with a passion, and finds religion "pointless". He ridicules his wife's faith. What kind of relationship would that be?
I don't think you can change a person. Either they naturally become a Christian, like everyone else who is a Christian, or they don't.
I mean, a girl may not have known God, and then she may know God, and develop a spirituality where she needs God. That's OK. But if you marry someone who is not a Christian, I find it hard to understand how you can make ends meet?
As I mentioned before; I know this guy who only got baptised on his wedding day so he could get married. The wife was a practicing Catholic.
But this chap hates the Church with a passion, and finds religion "pointless". He ridicules his wife's faith. What kind of relationship would that be?
let's not concentrate much on the exceptions or what we may believe are people's wrong down or atleast not their best choices.
What I really really cannot understand are couples who tell me "Oh, I married my partner because I saw Christ in him/her" - and then they got the other person to change their religion for the sake of marriage. If you respect Christ in that person, you should also respect the Church that led them to Christ, not ask them to change their Church over it.
That's very odd.
* May I just add : in no way am I judging anyone who does marry a non Coptic person. Everyone has to work out their own salvation. As I said before, look at our state: what's the probability of finding someone Coptic in the USA, Europe or anywhere outside of Egypt? You are bound to make friends who are Christian from other denominations. We are taught to respect other denominations, but I'm not sure if this respect is reciprocated.
for one, JG... your religions DOES NOT MAKE YOU WHO YOU ARE!!! keep that in mind at all time, I've seen much worse couples that make me cringe at their thought... they are orthodox to their finest grain, in the end some of the worst marriages I've seen, I do not want to share the details of their marriage, but they characterize (or better word, make the excuse) it as this is what the faith teaches... oh and for their kids, ALL ATHEIST!!! because they saw how uptight and unsuccessful their parents' marriage is. I know this because i'm in psychology and I have many people open up about their inner secrets. If our religion makes us who we are then why is there so much corruption in the followers of our religion? why would Judas betray the lord after all His teaching? some people are bad some people are good, its not automatically good due to your religion... it somewhat kinda maybe effects us, but its up to the land where the grain is thrown.
mabsoota, I know more than 100 couples in the Coptic church that married Coptics and are now divorced, and much much more who are still married and are beyond unsatisfied. only the cases of the ones who are not coptic stand out to us because whenever two have an interfaith marriage people always suspect the worst, hence when one or two actually have an unsuccessful marriage the whole community thinks "told you so" but in reality they say so for every interfaith marriage (example of this, look at all the posters thinking it wouldn't work even when they don't know the people).
Dthoxsai, my beloved dthoxsa, are you married to a non orthodox? are you in a relationship with a non orthodox? are you planning to marry a non orthodox? if you answered NO, please let THEM be. the church does not advise this but forbids it, to marry in the coptic church you both have to be coptic, I will not speak much about that point because I do not want to oppose the rites of the church... but again as I said in the original post, leave THEM alone let THEM figure out THEIR lives through their spiritual guide or whoever, it is not your business.
now for the point you do not understand, my wife to be is to me an angel, I saw Christ in her even when we were friends and she was not a part of the faith, look into what i said to JG about that... but she was not Christian, when we were friends she converted, now she is following the religion that she was acting upon all her life, but her converting didn't change her personality.
but aside from all of this, lets go back to the main topic, and my original response... and follow your words of wisdom, "everyone has to work out THEIR OWN salvation." so keep out of their business.
If I may, allow me to try to give a friendly response.
[quote author=✞SuperMAN✞(BAM)✞ link=topic=14610.msg166252#msg166252 date=1381515743]
for one, JG... your religions DOES NOT MAKE YOU WHO YOU ARE!!!
God made you who you are. God created you in his image AND likeness. So personality included. We may choose to reject the likeness of God, but a person who struggles with his faith and tries to attain His likeness definitely, in my opinion, impacts who you become.
[quote author=✞SuperMAN✞(BAM)✞ link=topic=14610.msg166252#msg166252 date=1381515743]
mabsoota, I know more than 100 couples in the Coptic church that married Coptics and are now divorced, and much much more who are still married and are beyond unsatisfied. only the cases of the ones who are not coptic stand out to us because whenever two have an interfaith marriage people always suspect the worst, hence when one or two actually have an unsuccessful marriage the whole community thinks "told you so" but in reality they say so for every interfaith marriage (example of this, look at all the posters thinking it wouldn't work even when they don't know the people).
Why do people even get married? What is the benefit? Marriage is not and should not be a question of the best 2 personalities together. It is not a question of who will get me most infatuated for the longest period of time. As humans, we often confuse infatuation with love. I might be wrong, you are the one with the major in psychology, but it seems pretty obvious that many (including myself) confuse infatuation with love these days - especially when seeing the rate of divorce. Now is that the only reason for divorce? Absolutely not, but it is my opinion that it is highly related. Our definition of love has become that of infatuation. And the moment we feel that love is gone, we give up.
So the truth is, at the end of everyone of these relationships, one of the two partners gave up on love.
This statement goes to any type of relationship. Whether it be one that is inter-racial, one that is of two great orthodox servants, or of two great catholic worshippers or of two non-believers.
So why do we get married? I could answer this for myself. Your answer could be different and still be correct. But in the end, marriage is a sacrament. Marriage is biblical. Marriage is of purpose to find help for ourselves and help to our partner to attain the kingdom and be united with God. So our decision on choosing our partner has to rely heavily on that fact - provided that we agree on the reason for marriage. So the advice I believe some are trying to demonstrate is not that of rebuking, but that of awareness. I could not agree more. To each his own but offcourse with guidance of a spiritual father. In whatever post I have done in this topic I try to remain as generic as possible. I do not wish to offend yourself or anyone. You make your own choices based on what you know and the guidance you are provided. I pray that God blesses you and your wife to be in joy and to attain the heavenly kingdom.
i think it is not wise for a Christian to marry someone who isn't a Christian.
even marriage to a different sort of Christian is hard work, but to a non Christian is too much hard work.
my husband is protestant, as was i when we got married.
i won't go into detail in public here, but i would not have chosen to be married to someone of slghtly different faith. he is a lovely person, but we have to work hard at things.
i think eastern orthodox / oriental orthodox is fine, and eritrean orthodox / indian orthodox is fine,
but even orthodox / catholic (sometimes similar) involves more hard work and protestant / orthodox a lot more hard work. (but i'm still not being shocked if someone chooses this)
i can't imagine, though how anyone could cope deliberately marrying an atheist / hindu or whatever as the lifestyle is so different. you can't pray together, and this is the most beautiful thing in a marriage.
of course some people start off in the same faith and then one may leave it, i am not blaming any Christian who finds him / herself in this situation. but marriage is hard enough without adding any extra difficulties.
i think dthoxsasiPhilanethrope has said here that he married a catholic (sorry if i remember wrong) so he knows what he is talking about.
i have friends like this, where one was catholic and they delayed the church wedding for ages trying to decide which church to go to. since my friend was chrismated in the orthodox church, they are much happier and can attend church together and fast the same, which really helps.
so if you can sort out these issues before the wedding, it helps a lot.
No she was not catholic at all. She never was catholic. All I said was that there was a period when we BOTH went to the Catholic and we felt it wasn't for us (it was in parallel) when we were still single.
I really can see how the dechristianization of Europe is happening.
Firstly, Protestants left the Catholics.
Now Catholics are becoming atheists. Interfaith marriages do not help this. Children will / may end up hating religion altogether when their very own parents dispute about dogmas and being close to the "truth".
Rather than God bringing a couple together, all of a sudden it becomes a reason for dividing people - and that's not God's fault. We were advised since the beginning NOT to have a relationship with anyone who is not of the same faith as us.
All I'm saying is that a protestant /Coptic relationship is very difficult. If NEITHER are practicing, then it becomes very easy. Once you practice your faith, you lose the fellowship.
Can you imagine a protestant man married to a Catholic woman? The woman will pray "Hail Mary" - and the man will ask her :"You shouldn't be praying to dead people - only pray to God". Then if he's a good protestant, he'll think he has the god given right to save his wife from idol worshipping and remove all crosses in the home, and smash all icons of Saints.
That's if he's practicing.
Look, you don't even need to look at interfaith marriages. Just look at interfaith friendships or communities. All my catholic friends - WITHOUT exception, respect my faith, to the point I find that even praying with them edifying. There are some catholics who are traditionalists who think we are heretics, but that's OK, there are Copts who think they are heretics also.
I do not know ANY protestant that is "OK" with our Church or that of the Catholic Church. Some are more vocal than others, but ultimately, they are against Apostolic Churches, or any Church with a priest.
Marriage with a Catholic CAN work if the Coptic partner in this relationship had already SOME history or love towards the roman Catholic Church. I personally find their hymns a bit dull (some, but not all I suppose).