We came when I was in middle school to suburb america, most of the people here came around that time also they were northerners and i was upper Egypt so they looked down on me for that and still do, its not that they only disliked me its the fact that they went out of their way to bother and bully me and that continues to today(now almost done with college) when we met other groups of coptic people the guys of the other group would tell me what they were saying behind my back, stuff like I'm low class or stink or live in a dumb or I come for a family of shahateen or other crap that had no foundation what so ever that the other groups would be able to see it as blatant lies. Anyhow I had friends in school and coincidentally what people took away from me at church god gave it to 10 fold at school. I did sports and had the best grades and going to a decent compared to the other idiots. What I'm getting at is my experience at church has been utter misery especially when you compare it to my life outside the place, now that I'm old enough to make my own choices I don't want to go to a place with bad people, abouna told me that church is a hospital but still I'm just done, any advice on other churchs other things I could do?
Comments
I disagree with Zoxasi. Church is about a community, and it is not a good idea to go just for the liturgy and then leave. Socialisation and having a meal (breakfast after the liturgy) within the church is very important.
Your options are as follows:
1. Hang around different people in your current Coptic church (may be the best option if not everyone is treating you badly, since there will always be some problems wherever you go)
2. Go to another Coptic or Oriental Orthodox Church: ie Ethiopian, Eritrean, Syrian, Indian, Armenian Orthodox
3. Go to an Eastern Orthodox Church
I don't recommend Catholic/Evangelical/Protestant. If none of 1, 2 or 3 work, then maybe there are some other underlying issues (that may have nothing to do with the church) which you should discuss with your confession father privately.
Again, while I have answered your question to the best of my own ability, your confession father will be able to help you better.
God bless and praying for u!
mfb219,
Your situation is most uncomforting to hear. Bullying is unacceptable in all forms. But there is a few things I would like to share.
1. Do not leave your Coptic Church at all. The grass always seems greener on the other side but the reality is everyone and every church has these problems. This is not an insult to Christian Churches or Christianity. It is a fact Christ Himself told us about. "In the world you will have tribulation" John 16:33. He did not say, "In the local church you attend only you will have tribulation". He did not say "In all Churches except the Oriental or Eastern Orthodox Churches, you will have tribulation." It happens every where because the "Prince of this world is coming but he has no power over Christ". How do you know that you will go to another Coptic Church or another Orthodox Church or another Protestant Church and have no bullying or any other kind of suffering?
2. The remaining part of the verse of John 16:33 is the most important part. "Be of good cheer, I have overcome the world." No matter how bad your bullying and you suffering is, there is still a solution: live for Christ who overcame the world and He brings you joy both in this world and the one after.
There are two ways to deal with suffering: with worldly depression or with spiritual joy. The world deals with victimization through anger and depression. The spirit deals with victimization with everlasting joy, the fruit of the Holy Spirit. You can get angry with those who persecute you and find ways to get out of Church or you can transform yourself with the Holy Spirit. Once you are transformed, "your sorrow will turn into joy...you now have sorrow; but I will see you again and your heart will rejoice, and your joy no one will take from you." John 16:20,22.
Christ uses the example of child birth. "A woman, when she is in labor, has sorrow because her hour has come; but as soon as she has given birth to the child..." In modern psychology, the world expects the woman to have postpartum depression. It's a medical condition. But Christ expects the woman to see the joy, not the suffering. In fact, He expects the woman to forget the suffering. He writes, "she no longer remembers the anguish, for joy that a human being has been born into the world." John 16:22. It is incumbent on us to forget the suffering and remember the joy for the grace we have been given. You can dwell on the suffering and say "I'm just done" or you can remember "you are the light of the world...Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven." Matthew 5:16.
3. You need to realize that life outside of the Church is always wrong; permanently. Contrastly, even if life in the Church is "misery", this is always temporary. Christ says "Heaven and earth will pass away" (All three synoptic gospels). The suffering will pass away. But the Church will never be prevailed by Hades (or by the the devil or by suffering) Mat 16:18. Don't "go to a place with bad people" as you yourself claimed. "Do not be deceived: “Evil company corrupts good habits." (1 Cor 15:33). Everything that is good in your life will be corrupted outside the Church. Contemplate on the parable of the Prodigal son. While you may not living in your father's house, outside your father's house, you will starve and permanent suffering will come guaranteed. But the father's house in the parable persisted. And there was everlasting comfort and restoration only the father's house.
Pray and speak to your confession father. I will pray for you too. May the God who gave Joseph years of suffering and elevated him to the highest position in Egypt, elevate you from your suffering "and show you great and mighty things, which you do not know" (Jeremiah 33:3)
Socialisation in church is not important. I speak from experience: I lived a long time in Egypt and abroad and never fully integrated in the "social" world of the church because it is a human activity, and humans are not perfect, so we mustn't expect perfection from a social gathering just because it's in a religious building!
I am sorry that you were discriminated against. You see, Egyptians are born and raised in a culture which is sexist, racist and approves of discrimination of many many thing. And old habits die hard - just because they jumped on a plane and moved to a different location, they won't automatically change to be better unless they recognise that what they were taught in their childhood is wrong. It is very difficult to convince someone to realise that they were taught wrong moralism because it will hurt their pride. People don't like admitting that they were wrong all these years.
The church you go to is full of people who were raised up, and are raising up the new generations, to discriminate against people depending on where they came from...if this was happening to you outside church, these people would be breaking the law and will need to answer to court. But because the Egyptian culture approves of it, then the church ignores it and considers the discrimination "joking around".
Just because something's are happening in the coptic church for a long time, it doesn't automatically make them right. Soon discrimination against people's roots (I.e. from different locations in Egypt) will become "a tradition" of the coptic church abroad...a tradition is something that people are used to doing for a long time. Not necessarily something good or correct
Abouna's advice as always was to forgive since church is for the sinful and its a hospital, he told me Christ came for the sinful and this is where we belong. Quiet frankly I think he thinks this crap is okay too since he is from Cairo..
Also I just wanna add that I don't think there is anything special about the coptic church which is why attending else where is fine with me..
@mfb219,
Again I reiterate that it is unfortunate of what is happening to you. But it seems to me that you think the Church is against Upper Egyptian immigrants. I don't know you so I can only go by what you wrote. If your view of the Church is a social melting pot of cultural and racial abuse, then you have not seen the real Church. I gave you scripture evidence of why leaving the Church is wrong. If you see the spiritual beauty of the Church, you will not have such a negative view of the Church. But if you refuse to be transformed by the Spirit, and you have already convinced yourself that there is nothing special about the Coptic Church, then why did you ask your questions? Did you expect people to confirm that abuses from Church parishioners are always abuses from the Church itself? Did you expect people to say it is justifiable to leave the Church for what you perceive as abuses from the Church, all the while ignoring the message of the Gospel that there is no salvation outside the Church? Did you expect people to agree that all the abuses and sufferings in this world, even within the church, occur because Cairene Egyptians are entirely racist against Upper Egyptians? Do you expect people to condone your comment that the younger priest "went to Egypt once, for his ordination and his monastery was in the north" implying that Cairene priests refuse to go to monasteries in Upper Egypt? I understand you're angry and hurt. But it will be your choice to leave the Church. I will still pray for you that God grants you the joy of the Holy Spirit.
@mnc_hnn, I assume your first paragraph was directed at me. I apologize if I implied that I have any authority to decide who stays and leaves the Church. I don't and even if I did it means nothing. God has that authority to do this and yet He allows each person to exercise his own will. I simply gave my opinion on why leaving the Church is wrong based on scriptural evidence and interpretation. If you feel that something I said in particular is the result of "brain-washing and not knowing it", please let me know.
I also didn't say the grass is greener on the other side. I said it seems greener but it is not based on scriptural evidence. Please explain why this wrong.
I also believe you are conflating the discrimination of the Egyptian culture with the Church. The Church is not the Egyptian culture. If negative influences of the Egyptian culture have infiltrated into the Church, it doesn't mean the Church is "raising up new generations to discriminate against people depending on where they come from." If such was the case, then there would be no such thing as missionary theology. There would be no missionary work. There would be no need for the Church to say "We need to go to these people of different cultures and offer them Christ." But since there is much missionary work in our Coptic Church, your claim that the Church ignores the discrimination of different cultures is unsupported.
Additionally, if Church ignores Egyptian discrimination, why is the Church aggressively working on a new Egyptian constitution that is designed to fight discrimination and give equal rights to all Egyptians?
@ophadece
Socialization is an integral part of the Christian life. We are called to be ambassadors for Christ. 2 Cor 5:20. How can one be an ambassador for God in a foreign land, as if God was making his appeal to foreigners, without living and socializing in that foreign land? Before the fall, God's desire for all men was to be king and priest over the whole earth, not separate from the earth. In fact, when God saw Adam had no one to socialize with, He gave him a woman. I don't understand why people believe we are some sort of isolated islands only coming together for liturgy and going our separate ways throughout the week. This is the special calling of anchorites, not the calling of Christians. This anti-socialization is the antithesis of reconciliation. One need not seek reconciliation, if one is capable of living without socialization and interaction with others.
Additionally, one is not allowed, as a victim of bullying or any other offense from another Church member, to simply ignore the perpetrators, take communion and go on his merry way. Your offering of the liturgy will become your condemnation. This is from Christ's own mouth.
@Fr AntonyPaul,
It's good to see you here again. Please join us often.
You just commented on skin colour in a way that makes you no better than the people who discriminated against you. I couldn't care less about what you or they look like, and if you or your bullies did make comments about physical appearance then you both need to correct the way you view races and ethnic groups. The way you comment confirms that you never left the Egyptian culture behind, the only things which changes are the language and location - the mistakes are the same.
Remnkemi
Mentioning missionary work as a point to justify that the coptic church is free from Egyptian-cultural mistakes seems to me like the coptic church was put on trial and a lawyer is trying to find all the philanthropic doings to argue a "not guilty". Just because the church is good at missionary work, it does not wipe away any other mistakes that happen to be ongoing in most coptic churches.
In my opinion, I think that the coptic church and most devout coptic Christians have very self-righteous beliefs about their faith i.e. Condemning non-coptic Christians and fervently warning any coptic member from even considering going to any other church. What is this? Please be a little more open minded.
I know the Egyptian culture is not the coptic Christian way of living but it has been adapted as such. There is no denying it. I have repeatedly noticed lack of respect between people within churches, and no action is taken to correct it because it is never taken seriously enough.
One of the worst examples I saw was Egyptian Christians segregating themselves from Ethiopian Christians where both groups went to the same church. And nothing was done about this, the clergy (if they were even alert enough to be aware of the situation) ignored it completely. That's plain racism. There can't be any excuses.
When was it ever that leaders in the church stood up and admitted to any mistakes or failures?
I agree with you re: the Eastern Orthodox.
However, Catholics/Protestants do not share the exact same faith as us.
Well, you don't have to.
Dear MFb219
I totally disagree with qawe.
Qawe’s opinion is absolutely negligent on your particular case. He is not reading your text.
You are being bullied in a Coptic Church.
Did you know the Church in France (Villejuif) has appeared on the news already at least twice due to Coptic gangs fighting each other! Why is that??
That’s because what unites us, as Copts, (outside of Egypt) in a Coptic Church is not always Christ. So what do I care if someone is going to Church to make problems, hangout with friends, have fun… why should I judge others for concerning the reasons why they go to a Coptic Church?
I shouldn’t care.
The fact is, is that I should care - simply because those going, like me, are those I should be building a fraternity with, a community with, that’s Christ-centric. The point is this: You will not have any fellowship or fraternity there. The Coptic Church culture doesn't encourage an atmosphere of spirituality.
IS YOUR COPTIC CHURCH COMMUNITY CHRIST-CENTRIC??? SERIOUSLY???
No!
Its Egypt-Centric.
So - of course you won’t have ANY fraternity there. There will be ZERO FELLOSHIP.
That’s a big shame.
But you have to take the good and leave the bad.
I agree that Life outside the Church is awful. But I’m not asking you to leave the Coptic Church, I’m telling you to GO to the Church, but forget the social life. Just have communion and leave.
Christ says that if your right hand causes you to sin, CAST IT AWAY from you. If your church, your very church becomes a cause for you to fall into sin, then cast them also away from you. This is obviously a disaster, but what can you do?
ITs FOOLISH to go to a Church where you are being picked on, humiliated, and you lose your peace. For what?? You are losing your peace by going to the Church?? That’s like having sex to promote virginity. That’s just STUPID.
The Coptic Church, no one realises this, is a Church hell-bent on Egypt. What unites us isn’t necessarily Christ - is it?? its Egypt. Its our commonality for Egypt.
Above all of this, your relationship with Christ should be independent of others. OF COURSE having Christian friends is important in your spiritual growth, but in your particular church, I cannot see the friendships you could have a tradeoff.
Look: There are some Churches that are Coptic where the Community is so respectful in Church and that respect tends to show in people’s attitude towards one another. Some are not. Believe me, my Church in Villejuif , France, is very odd:
We have gangs having turf wars in Church, fights, policemen with guard dogs outside the Church, and yet we have amazing Church servants who serve the Lord so sincerely with all their hearts. The problem is: NO MATTER how nice the servants are, if you to Church and you are picked on by people there, or someone starts a fight with you, or abuses you in any way - what good is that if you have good Church servants???
The comments I’ve read so far are SO self - righteous. They put the onus on you to be a good Christian and live in humiliation of your rights and self respect in order to keep on going to your Church. What for?? The priest in Villejuif could not keep the peace in his own Church, and has to employ a doorman with a bulldog outside, so why are people on here expecting you to be more than a priest???
DO NOT LEAVE THE CHURCH, but definitely, leave this community. Search for God. You will find Him. God is sincere. He will not leave you if you are truly leaving the Church to maintain your peace.
As abouna told you, the Church is like a hospital for ill people - is the environment in the Church healing you, or tormenting you??? Like I said: one shouldn’t be having sex to promote virginity or purity, and going to Church, in these conditions is EXACTLY like that.
I’ve been to a Church where it was worse than Villejuif.. I mean, the things the youth were doing to each other was horrendous. ABSOLUTELY HORRENDOUS. - i cannot even mention it on here.
The priests seemed to care more about the image of the Church, than trying to solve these problems between the people. This is wrong.
See, let me put it to you this way:
Yes, I know exactly what you mean about how people can look down on you for being born in a small village, when they are all from Heliopolis or Maadi. Sure!!
Now, these small things I dont care about, but if in your youth group, in your generation, you are actually being bullied, or marginalised, I would say leave.
If it was a school or work, I would tell you to stay and earn your place amongst your colleagues. But in a Church?? The ENTIRE PURPOSE of going IS to gain your peace, its to find yourself, its to be healed from sin. If you end up going to find that you are being driven INTO sin, then its best to leave.
I gave you FOUR or FIVE options - and if anyone here bothered to read them, you’d see that EACH option still involved going to another Church.
I don't actually know what this term "self-righteous" means. It is being used a lot. Your definition "Condemning non-coptic Christians" is by definition the opposite of righteousness. I don't think an opposite action can define any form of righteousness. "fervently warning any coptic member from even considering going to any other church" has nothing to do with righteousness. I was not warning coptic members from ever considering going to any other church per se. I was warning Coptic Orthodox Christians that going to any other church (1) simply because you don't approve the Coptic Church is wrong, (2) doesn't solve problems, and (3) opens the door for apostasy. Again, even God does not force people into one particular church. Since no one has actually given any biblical, patristic, or logical reason to negate these three points, I have to question why is it called "self-righteousness" to begin with? If I claimed these things on my own authority, I would be self-righteous. But I reiterated what is said in the gospel, which dictates what righteousness is and isn't.
I know the Egyptian culture is not the coptic Christian way of living but it has been adapted as such. There is no denying it. I have repeatedly noticed lack of respect between people within churches, and no action is taken to correct it because it is never taken seriously enough.
How do you know there is no action taken or there is no seriousness to the issue? Does Pope Tawadros or any local bishop have to come out and kick people out of church for people to view it as an appropriate and "serious enough" response? What response is adequate? And what exactly is bad "egyptian culture" and good "egyptian culture" adapted into the Coptic Christian way of living? Should we kick out people who eat salted fish on Sham al-nessim or "kulkas" on Theophany? Should we kick out people who insist on speaking Arabic in the diaspora? What you don't know is how each bishop, priest and clergy prays in the liturgy and the inner room for God to bring peace to the One, holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. Is this action evidence that cultural problems in the Coptic Church are not taken seriously enough? I think it is the only action that is a "serious enough" response. Every other response borders on injustice and faith in human power instead of God's grace.
One of the worst examples I saw was Egyptian Christians segregating themselves from Ethiopian Christians where both groups went to the same church. And nothing was done about this, the clergy (if they were even alert enough to be aware of the situation) ignored it completely. That's plain racism. There can't be any excuses.
Since I wasn't there I can't speak to that particular event. However, sometimes segregation is not done out of racism but out of comfort. I have tried to initiate contact with converts and foreigners and they simply prefer to be left alone in the back of the church. If it is true about an individual convert or guest, it can also be true about an entire group. I am not making excuses for racism. I am simply saying don't be rush to condemn any action as racism when it may not have been. This is the message I was trying to convey to mfb219 but he has made up his mind that all his negative experiences in his local Coptic Church are the result of racism and there is nothing good in the Coptic Church. He seeks comfort in an alternative that is by his own words evil and bad.