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Arranged marriage failing

Theresa
edited February 2014 in Coptic Orthodox Church
An Egyptian orthodox family with an only son , father passed away few years back his mother was worried her son was going to be alone when it was her time to go , so she spoke to her son about arranged marriage he agreed in the respect that he doesn't want to upset his mum as shes not in good health ,
So marriage took place , 6 years later there are constant fighting between the married couple ,he works different hours every day and when he gets home its constant verbal abuse from the wife , this is an every day routine ,work , home ,abuse,,
He wants to leave his wife but his mother says please son for the kids stay ,
Now is that what god would want ?
A man slowly losing hope in all aspects of life even his children that he feels his losing his mind ,
He is lost in the way that what his religion church expects of him and what god expects of him and where does free will come into this ?
Does the man continue dieing slowly in his life of unhappiness where the whole family suffers as a man of the family what does he do ?

Comments

  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi
    edited February 2014

    Dear Theresa,

     

    I would like to share my thoughts on this.

    May I just ask : what is your relation to this young man? Are you a friend? or a relative?

    Marriage isn't easy. If we all just packed our bags and left when our spouses were suffering, then the divorce rate would be 99.999%

    Arranged Marriages:

    Arranged marriages aren't so bad. The ONLY good thing about arranged marriages is that there's no one to blame. I mean, if you have an arranged marriage, then you take the person "as is". Arranged marriages are usually done on the basis that you have religion and some family in common. Its also a way to ensure that both couples remain a virgin. I.e. there's no need to date or do anything. When you become of marital age, you get married with a person you KNOW is a virgin.

    Surely, this is not a bad thing altogether!

    All marriages can be abusive, and all of them can be lovable - at the same time (obviously differing in degrees of abusive or degrees of love). The love between a husband and a wife isn't the same between a parent and a child, or between friends. It can be very cold or very hot at the same time.

    Your Wife makes You Miserable

    Its not really down to a man's wife to make him happy. I know many on here will attack me for this, but your happiness shouldn't come from your spouse. They have a responsibility before God to only have sex with their spouse and raise Children together in the faith. That's it.

    (and vice versa).

    So , for example, let's say you marry someone who is not talkative, she's dead boring, or has a low IQ. Well, if you discover this after marriage, you cannot change her, but even despite these faults, your happiness remains your problem. The remit is on you to make yourself happy. You cannot put your ability to be happy in the hands of your wife (or husband).

    Wives can do stupid things, say stupid things, behave in dumb ways, cook bad things, and generally be prone to err as with husbands. I think in marriage, each person has to learn how to communicate their dislikes so that the other person pays attention and expresses themselves without offending the other.

    Where does God come into This?

    I would highly recommend that couples both engage in a spiritual activity together, at least once a week, and that does not necessarily mean a Coptic Church.

    I would not recommend, in this particular case, that this man and his wife go to a Coptic Church (right now, perhaps later, OK, but not now).

    The reason is that the Church, in general, is meant to be a hospital for sick people. People who have problems that they need healing from. The problem with the Coptic Church is that its also a Gossip Centre, a Showroom of wealth, and Egyptian Culture. You will not see other people with problems. You'll see other people who may only make you feel bad about your problem(s).

    I would recommend any other Church. Go together and pray.

    Its funny that people ask "Where does God come into this?" - because that's exactly where He's needed. I've seen marriages break off where the couple are rich, each person has no major illness, both have jobs, and they still divorce. God needs to be in your life.

    Also, Satan doesn't want your marriage to work. Does he? So you have to expect that! You have to expect some sort of tribulation.

    What Should he do

    I think he should endure it and stay on.

  • joekelinyjoekeliny
    Zoxasi, 

    "Its not really down to a man's wife to make him happy. I know many on here will attack me for this, but your happiness shouldn't come from your spouse. They have a responsibility before God to only have sex with their spouse and raise Children together in the faith. That's it."

    As you expected, this thought is no where close to a what true marriage strives for. The Lord's commandment was that we grow and multiply. However, we must remember another major purpose of marriage in the Orthodox Church. That is, that the two being one flesh, engage in a mutual struggle for the Kingdom of God. The two aid each other, and each attempt to pave the path that their spouse will walk on. Therefore, the marriage is not merely a relationship based on sexual reproduction, yet, one in which the two strive to be united with the Creator. Consequently, it is not fair to assume that the job of the wife is to simply "produce" and care for children. 

    Theresa, 

    I am not married and certainly will not be able to provide suitable advice. However, I am positive that their father of confession and many other fathers also will be a much greater help for the two. I would encourage you to recommend this to them if you have not already done so. And, as for leaving the Coptic Church and praying at another. I highly would not recommend this, as their spirituality is not dependant on locations, but on the heart which is zealous for Christ. Searching for other churches will only create more instability. 
  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi

    Absolute NONSENSE Joekeliny,

     

    Your happiness is not from your wife or husband. What if I married a spiritual lady who loved God, but was drop dead ugly - and her ugliness made me sad?

     

    What then???

    Your wife isn't meant to lead you to heaven, she's meant to not be a stumbling block for you to get there, but ultimately, your salvation is not in the hands of others. We are talking about TWO different things.

    You are talking about salvation, I'm talking about marital life.

    Your wife is not responsible for your happiness. Let's say I marry a woman who is beautiful, and I love her because she's beautiful. What if she has an accident and becomes ugly. Will I always be sad?? Will I divorce her? My happiness is my responsibility also.

     

    If a man is an idiot, marrying an intelligent woman won't make him smarter; he'll always be an idiot. That won't change him. Its in his hands to be smarter and to get an education. Marrying a woman with 100's of degrees to her name doesn't automatically give me an education. The same with happiness.

    I don't know what the problems they are having in their marriage, but I don't think its related to happiness. It seems more deeper than that. I would suggest counceling.

     

  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    Check out Abouna's word in this wedding:
    (timestamp 17:00)
  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi
    edited February 2014
    I think the people who need to hear abouna's words are our blessed brother and sister who are suffering in their marriage.

    We have a duty to take care of our spouses.

    By the way : I noticed the joyful tune of amoini marenoousht. Is that because it's a wedding? Or was the wedding during a festival season?

    I think we will be accountable as to how we treat our spouses. But if I look to my spouse as to how she should be making me happy , then I'm wandering away from my obligation to take care of her before God who entrusted me with her. Hence , I shouldn't be looking at my wife to make me happy, but I should be taking care of her regardless.

    I don't know what is soooo confusing for Copts to understand this : your wife's duty isn't to bring you happiness. It's to take care of you and look after you. If you ain't happy in yourself and thankful for what God has given you, you will never be happy anyway.

    And why am I saying this? Because the original poster's comment clearly suggest that the couple are not happy. They may not be happy with their choice. But the objective of marriage isn't a contract where each spouse has to make the other happy. It's to take care of one another in the fear of God. That's why I think it's important to draw a line with respect to expectations, duties and responsibilities. Her duty is before God to simply take care of you.
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    The rite of the Crowning Ceremony is always festive. 
  • RemnkemiRemnkemi
    Actually, Fr Antonios said something that partially corroborates Zoxsasi's comments at times tap 1:16:55. However, as Fr Antonios continues his discussion, he informs us that the Apostolic Coptic Orthodox Church gives instructions to the couple and God will judge each person of the marriage individually. One of those instructions addressed specifically to the wife is "Do not frown in his face. Always do what gladdens his heart." This sounds like it is the wife's responsibility to make the husband happy. But as Fr Antonios points out, these words which are centuries old are misunderstood and consequently have taken on politically incorrect meanings. It isn't the wife's job to make sure her husband is happy, rather it is the wife's job to prioritize her husband over everyone else. This is how husbands are naturally happy. In essence, the two statements are the same.

    Now to answer your question Zoxsasi, if you married a a drop dead ugly wife and that makes you sad, then (1) you're immature and not ready for marriage to begin with and (2) you have no recourse of action. Ugliness is not grounds for a divorce. You are correct when you say "salvation is not in the hands of others." Therefore, I would extend it to say "salvation is not in the ugly face of others either" If your ugly wife makes you sad, it's your mistake that you are letting ugliness control your salvation. You are correct in this sense.

    On the flip side of the coin, joekeliny is also correct. It is by learning to grow together towards Christ fulfilling His commandment to love one another and be fruitful that we actually partake in our salvation and the salvation of others. (Theosis is the ultimate sign of a sacrament). It is the job of the husband as priest of the family to instruct and help his wife and children to salvation, while it is the job of the wife as helpmate to help her husband by obeying and prioritizing her husband. The concept of reproduction is a minor layer in the Orthodox marriage. Rather it is the crowning of the couple as king and queen, savior and helper, priest and deacon - a copy of Christ and the Church. That is the major layer in the Orthodox wedding. This is why it is called a Crowning Ceremony, not a Wedding Ceremony or a Marriage Ceremony.

    The problem with the original poster's questions was that it assumed that staying in the marriage is emotional suicide that will suppress the will to be happy. It also assumed that the Church requires things that are not feasible or possible. All of these are wrong assumptions. It is unfortunate that the wife is verbally abusing her husband, as it is more unfortunate that the husband cares more about his mother's feelings than his wife's. The only solution is prayer and guidance from the Holy Spirit that comes through the priesthood when each person in this marriage submits their will to God. 

    PS. It took me a while to realize that the whole video was processed as a mirror image. All the priests are crossing the couple with their left hands and raising incense in the censor with their left hands. It freaked me out.
  • rebecca.ann
    As one of the few who have been married and divorced with children here, I can chime in a bit. I would advise this man to get over himself, as it is selfish for him to think of leaving just based on his own unhappiness. And as always there are 2 sides to each story....

    The man has a duty to the woman he accepted as his wife. If he cared about his own happiness he should have thought of this when he put mom's happiness above his. Now he suffers, but what is done is done. Boy, this will sound bad but arranged marriage is like buying a used car. You get what you see, as is, period. If it breaks down later you are still stuck. 

    Let me take the wife's side for a moment. I would bet anything in me the husband has some fault here as well. Maybe, the emotional neglect caused by his work schedule leads to angry outbursts and resentment like you are describing. I'll re-visit this thread later tonight...



  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi

    Friends,

     

    There are real benefits to arranged marriages and each person has to look back and remind them what they gained with this system of marriage and stop complaining.

    For goodness sake, God gives you a partner and you should be thankful. Period.

     

     

  • mnc_hnnmnc_hnn
    All the posts here never considered the wellbeing of the children in this marriage.

    It can be emotionally scarring for children who are raised up in an environment polluted with hate and resentment. More damage occurs than due to parental separation/ divorce, provided both parents have access to the children. And to be honest, in these cases, for the couple to separate is better for everyone (not saying that they can remarry) but what would each of them prefer: to live together forever or live apart forever?

    It doesn't matter to the couple whether the church says they have a duty to take care of each other..if they cannot tolerate each other, they just can't! Everything will create pity arguments, depression....the list is endless. There is no straight answer here
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    edited February 2014
    @Zoxasasi: "For goodness sake, God gives you a partner and you should be thankful. Period."
    What in the world does this mean?! you are saying that God is the one who is arranging these marriages--an angel came from heaven and told that person, take that girl. ya 3ini.
    and "There are real benefits to arranged marriages and each person has to look back and remind them what they gained with this system of marriage and stop complaining."
    I am sorry but I DO NOT see any benefit of whatsoever coming out of something I am forced to do at least in an age of marriage, a mature age in which the person is mature enough to make the choice. 

    Let me now write something serious about this topic because, as always, sasi hijacks the thread to start arguments...even though he might know a thing or two about this, being married (I believe)

    I haven't seen a decent definition of 'an arranged' marriage in this whole post. In the discussion starter, the user just said 'arranged marriage' without explaining how was it one. To me, an arranged marriage is one where the couple will not be gaining anything from the marriage and everyone else will. It's also one where the couples do not get the choice and/or the time needed to know each other. Its one that may be established on lies.
    Also, to me, it is NOT an arranged marriage when an introduction between the couples was made and they are giving it a shot (of course if they are in fact ready to get married). It's not an arranged marriage when both have the right to say no to it but decided not to for ANY REASON.

    Marriage is a life within the life. It can be the cause of a person going to hell or heaven. It is not to be taken lightly. It is not to be done just to make others happy, even if they were your parents. People have their salvation in their hands, your salvation is always in yours and no one else can get you to heaven.
  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi

    Mina,

     

    When I say there are benefits of arranged marriages, there are. If you do not see them, then too bad.

    I'm not saying I agree to arranged marriages, but there are benefits to it.

    I know people who married as a love story and now they are divorced. You have to be happy with what God has given you, and as abouna said in the Video YOU posted: "God has ENTRUSTED you with a  wife".

    He then entrusts you with Children!

    Children are from God as much as a wife is also from God. A job is also from God. You should be thankful FOR ALL that you have.

    Thanksgiving is the secret to happiness, not a marrying someone perfect.

    Now, in terms of arranged marriage definition; I think you know VERY well what we mean by this in the Coptic Orthodox Community. Arranged marriages (gawaz sala) means the following:

    * The parents/family/friends recommend someone to a potential husband/wife.

    * There's no dating.

    * You can ask all the questions you want.


    I know many people who had this type of marriage and they are VERY happy. You disagree - OK. Don't get married this way. But if someone got married this way and now he's married and he regrets his wife, then he needs to look back at the reason why he got married this way and appreciate the benefits it did have:

     

    I didn't hijack any thread, and your tone is very accusatory. Furthermore, BE RESPONSIBLE WITH YOUR ADVICE!!! If you actually RE-READ your post, you'd see that you are basically pushing this young man to get divorced!!!!!!

     

  • RemnkemiRemnkemi
    Zoxsasi, I don't think Mina said anything about divorce. It seems your definition of arranged marriage is different than his. 

    If, like Mina said, an arranged marriage is a situation where a couple does not have the right to say no, by unofficial Church policies, the couple has grounds for annulment. There was a story said by one of the bishops where an arranged marriage was set to go and the husband said "laaaaa" (in a very heavy Upper Egyptian accent). When the uncle of the bride heard him say "laaaa", he pulled a gun on the bridegroom. The man said yes for fear of his life but then got an annulment later. There can be no marriage and no sacrament where the two are not consenting. There are NO benefits to this type of arrangement.

    In Zoxsasi's definition, I assume that by asking all the questions you want, the potential couple has the right to say no. (That isn't in the definition). I think the definition requires an explanation of "no dating". I think it is unnatural to agree to a life long decision solely on the third party word of mouth. There has to be some interaction. Even Isaac's arranged marriage in Genesis showed he was married after he fell in love with Rebecca, not before. 

    Regarding the wellbeing of the children: It is directly proportional to the well being of the parents. You can't pretend to hide your feelings for the sake of your children. This is nothing more than applying a bandage over an aortic aneurysm. It is not going to work. By fixing the marriage, both parents will want to spend time with each other and with their children. A separation (which I assume the Church would agree to here), it is meant to be a temporary solution. If it is not temporary, then what have you really solved?
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    edited February 2014
    God does not force anything on you. He does not force a good job, a good wife, a good children. He simply bless in whatever choice you make even if it was the wrong one. We cannot blame everything in God.

    Thanksgiving must be there, for every thing good or bad...but it is not the secret of happiness. The secret is being with God in taking all those choices and considering that you choose the godly and beneficial-for-your-salvation choice, 

    I disagree with that definition of arranged marriage (call it gawaz sala gawaz salon, i don't care). In that marriage, you get the choice to yes or no. No dating is fine because the engagement becomes the dating period--egypt rules. And you are right, almost all marriages are that way in egypt. Nothing wrong with them. But when something wrong goes on in the marriage, either of the couple just wants to blame it on someone, other than themselves for agreeing for the marriage, there is no one else better than those who recommended.

    Another thing that I wanna ask about, what benefits are we talking about exactly?! ya3ny, you gonna get a car with her walla 7aga, or a house or job...those 'earthly things' must not be the incentive for you to say yes for the marriage. 
  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi

    Guys,

    What kind of arranged marriages are you all talking about? I thought they do that stuff in India where you only see the bride on the day you get married.

     

    Even if that's the case, so what?? Its not so bad. There are advantages to that kind of marriage. The divorce rate is the lowest amongst these people.

     

  • StavroStavro

    Zoxsasi: What kind of arranged marriages are you all talking about? I thought they do that stuff in India where you only see the bride on the day you get married.

    It might be present in Upper Egypt and in the villages, but my observation is that it decreased drastically. I do not know of any couple after the 60's where this type of marriage took place. At least a year of real engagement must have taken place.

    I do not consider setting up a couple for a "date" and then they take it from there to be arranged, although I experience more than not that many coptic young men / ladies resisting even this type because of the taboo that arranging anything in a relation is backward. It has to be "spontaneous", they prefer. OK, to each his preference.

    Zoxsasi: Even if that's the case, so what?? Its not so bad. There are advantages to that kind of marriage. The divorce rate is the lowest amongst these people.

    This kind of marriage is often likened to buying a bati7'a (watermelon). It might turn out to be sweet or maybe it will be more like 2ar3. Marriage is too sacred a relation to be left for a chance or someone else's choice.

    But I do not think that the divorce rate is necessarily the lowest. Are there any data to back this statement? Even if it is, in the societies where this type of marriage takes place, divorce is a bigger taboo than anything else and the low rate of divorce might be driven by the same type of social pressure that forced / promoted this  arranged marriage in the first place.

  • RemnkemiRemnkemi
    As far as I can see from Indian sources, what you are describing is not exactly an Indian arranged marriage. In the Indian arranged marriage scheme, the families choose spouses but each individual has the right to say no and that doesn't happen on the day you get married. (Actually, Indian weddings take days). Some statistics I found:
    90% of Indians approve arranged marriage and are actually married that way.
    55% of the globe are married through arranged marriage. (Higher than I expected)
    1.1-2% is India's divorce rate, but it is increasing among arranged marriages.
    2.2% is Egypt's divorce rate and it is increasing too. 59.1% of divorces occur in urban areas. (In 2010, The Central Agency for Public Mobilization and Statistics (CAPMAS), claimed the divorce rate was 40%. This is the number you hear a lot but I don't think it's accurate)
    Globally, the divorce rate is 6%. The US divorce rate is 48.5-55%. (Although the divorce rate in 1963 was 2.2% per 1000 people and today it is 3.6 so I don't know if 48.5% is accurate. I think it's closer to 40%)

    What is interesting is forced marriages (also counted among arranged marriages) has a very high divorce rate. A forced marriage is defined as arranged and forced on a person 18 years or less. The divorce rate ranges 14.4% in Kazakhstan to 48% in South Asia. Obviously, there is absolutely no benefit or advantage of a forced marriage.

    The are advantages to arranged marriages but we need to define it correctly. I would just say that a low divorce rate in itself is not an advantage because it is not spiritual. Worldly advantages are not the same as spiritual advantages. 
  • joekelinyjoekeliny
    Zoxasi, 

    Remenkimi has done an outstanding effort in clarification, following your comment directed to me. Thank you Remenkimi. 

    Pray for me a sinner. 
  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi

    Guys,

     

    You are talking about TWO different things here.

     

    Forced marriages and Arranged marriages.

     

    Forced marriages are wrong. I see no benefit in them.

    Arranged Marriages have some benefits.


    Ultimately, Joekeliny, your wife is NOT responsible for your happiness, NOR for your salvation. You cannot find yourself in Hell and tell God "Well, I married this awful woman who caused me to sin, to commit adultery, to swear and to scorn". God will tell you "Dear Joe, you had ALL THE GRACES and POWER to combat this, why didn't you use it? If your wife was causing you to be miserable - did you pray for her? Did you lead her into holiness?".

     

    You will end up in hell out of your own weakness.

    I don't like to hear people blame their wives for their spiritual well being OR Happiness!!!

    Also, if you cannot make a woman who has your kids to love you, how on earth will you make someone else? Focus on the project you have and be successful in it.

    As for arranged marriages, if you did get married this way look at the benefits it gave you. The more you complain about what you don't have, the more you forget what you do have, and what you should be thankful for.

    Arranged marriages are not for me, but I see nothing wrong with them. Some girl I know wanted to get married. She wasn't a party animal, she didn't like to date, so abouna suggested a man for her. He came over and saw her, they spoke. He came again. Abouna knew the 2 families and felt they were compatible. They got married.

     

    There is NOTHING wrong with this.

     

    What is wrong with everyone? You know very well our Church doesn't have boyfriends/girlfriends.. we don't date. Arranged marriages are very common. Some fail, some succeed... but OK.. whatever life gives you, you need God's Grace to overcome these challenges. You can do nothing without God. And actually, even if God gave you an amazing wife, without His Grace, you'll still most likely fail in your marriage.

     

  • ReturnOrthodoxyReturnOrthodoxy
    Just a thought (and I don't mean to be smug in keeping it short but I am driving while writing this lol), but would you not agree that statistics really mean nothing to the individual?

    Ray
  • RemnkemiRemnkemi
    Zoxsasi, 
    Nothing is wrong with anybody. What you have described is perfectly fine concerning arranged marriages. Keep in mind that the phrase "arranged marriage" has a different meaning than what you described. In fact, it has multiple meanings (forced marriage is usually included but semi-forced might be another situation included in the phrase "arranged marriage". "Facilitated arranged marriage" is what you were describing). In essence, no one is disagreeing with you. 

    Additionally, I already said you were right that a husband's happiness is not the wife's absolute responsibility. She has some responsibility but no one can use a bad wife as an excuse. 

    Ray, yes statistics really mean nothing to the individual dealing with an abusive marriage. However, it was simply discussed so no one believes that arranged or facilitated or forced marriages is more or less advantageous because the original poster brought that up.

  • joekelinyjoekeliny
    Zoxasi, you are doing nothing but clarifying my point. I have never said that either spouse is to be solely a source of happiness in the relationship. However, I have made it clear that marriage is a path to the Kingdom of God. St. Paul, wished that each man live solely for The Lord. Although, if this is not suitable, then to marry, that one may not fall into sexual immorality. Therefore, St. Paul clarifies that the two; being one flesh, aid each other in reaching God, by not falling into sin. Consequently, marriage then, should be nothing but a relationship that presents guidance in the spiritual path for both spouses.

    Previously, I have attempted to write this concerning the topics question. Obviously, a marriage where one spouse is always initiating fights through selfishness, is clearly not how any Christian marriage ought to be; whether it is arranged or not.

    Again, so that you do not misunderstand me, I am not implying that the marriage be annulled due to its present lack of success, although, that it be dealt with by the fathers, and not by people who do not even know the couple well enough.

    Thanks for your patience, please pray for me.
  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi

    Theresa,

     

    I really dislike your post.

    I hate it even. You start off by making us feel sorry for this young man:

     

    An Egyptian orthodox family with an only son , father passed away few years back his mother was worried her son was going to be alone when it was her time to go ,,

    And you portray this young man as a victim:

     so she spoke to her son about arranged marriage he agreed in the respect that he doesn't want to upset his mum as shes not in good health

    Sure.. so let's get this straight: to make his mother happy, he thinks its ok for him to be miserable??

    And then you say its an arranged marriage - so he still could have met the girl and decided.

    Then you say:


    He wants to leave his wife but his mother says please son for the kids stay ,

    Oh really!!! So after 6 years, his mother was still alive (that's good!) and she wants him to stay only for the kids. Does this young man have a personality? You know, the difference between us and cattle is our free will. Does he have free will to decide? You make it out that it was a forced marriage, when in essence, its an arranged marriage.

    And then you ask:

    Now is that what god would want ?

    You make it out that this man was forced to marry some girl, and now he's married he's unhappy, and you present it as if "Is this God's will?"

    You are wicked!!

    If he wasn't happy with the woman, how could he possibly even make love with a woman he wasn't attracted to in order to have 2 kids with her?! A priest would never have married a couple who were forced into any marriage.

    He is unhappy, and you are putting the blame on God for your own ineptitude or his own ineptitude. I would even bet that you in fact are this "poor young man". Get a grip on yourself and stop being a hypocrite.

     

    He is lost in the way that what his religion church expects of him and what god expects of him and where does free will come into this ?

    He chose his wife. Coptic Orthodox Marriages are NEVER forced. Its impossible. The reason is that during the marriage ceremony, the man puts the ring HALF WAY on the wife's finger. The priest then pushes the ring all the way. That means, if you had any doubt , that the man actually decides on someone, and asks God to bless and conclude his decision.

    Does the man continue dieing slowly in his life of unhappiness where the whole family suffers as a man of the family what does he do ?

    I think you mentioned the key word here: "The man". He is not a cattle, not a cow, he is a man. He assumes his responsibility, he assumes his decision and he accepts his decision.

    I hate your comment as if you are portraying this guy as a victim and God as being the criminal here!!!

    Finally, God wants us to be responsible with our decisions and actions.

  • joekelinyjoekeliny
    Theresa,

    Simply direct them to the fathers if you have not done so already. Clearly, there's not much benefit available from immature views and opinions. God be with you and the family.
  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi

    Joekeliny,

    Please be respectful to everyone's opinion. For you, it maybe nonsense, but everyone has a right to their opinion.

     

    From my side, I see Theresa's opinion looking to justify divorce and blaming God for it.

    I hate that.

    You have your opinion, and I have mine.

  • joekelinyjoekeliny
    Zoxasi, 

    The couple whom Theresa's posting about, are not rodents, or a pair of rats on which scientific research is conducted. Theresa is not posting here to be tormented as if she is satan, being mocked and called "wicked" as a result of personal paranoia. As you can see, it was not in my interest to write a thorough reply to your post, this would only add fuel to the fire. We are not gossip girls talking about a celebrity wedding affair, but it was certainly expected by Theresa that God would grant joy to her heart through his children on the forum. Your previous post was of no benefit to her, and neither is this one. Again, after rotating in circles, I recommend Theresa to guide the couple to the fathers. The status of a couple's relationship, whom we know nearly nothing about, cannot simply be decided on a public forum, but only by the Lord Christ. There is no one word answer which will satisfy anyone here, but rather, it is humility and patience which will reunite the two's hearts in the love of Christ. I will not be posting on this topic again, but will ask that the Lord be with the couple and give them strength!
  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi
    Joe,

    This is a Coptic orthodox forum.

    'Theresa' has all the right, like anyone to ask questions, but if you read carefully her text, she is clearly blaming God for this marriage and using it to justify divorce.

    Unless such behavior is answered and addressed , this post will become an example of others who will think that any problem in their marriages can be justified through divorce.

    This is totally irresponsible.

    She is not merely stating a problem, but advocating divorce on false grounds and blaming God for the marriage.

    Your sympathy to any of this simply makes you partisan to her ignorant or even evil driven agenda.


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