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A Call To Arms

IoannesIoannes
edited October 2014 in Coptic Orthodox Church
This last sunday I was shocked to hear our church use only protestant hymns during communion. As most of you know I have vehemently spoken out against this very practice and you can imagine I have done so at church as well, but clearly to no avail. I have spoken to the higher ups, to the priest, to everyone in between and last sunday I was actually called an extremist for suggesting we use Orthodox hymns....in an Orthodox church. Let me reiterate the dangers in allowing such practice into the church. By singing these hymns we are invariably accepting them, by accepting them we are telling our youth, and other laity, that there is no real difference between Orthodox and protestant. Logically we can conclude that at some point in the youths development they will likely say, why not be protestant? Its much easier and you can attain the same result as you can in Orthodoxy, with less struggle. We cannot validate these hymns because we validate the source which will inevitably lead more dilution of Orthodoxy and people may inevitably leave Orthodoxy for the path of least resistance. I know that to some of you this may seem "extreme" but let me remind you of the spiritual void in Europe, the birthplace of protestantism. Protestantism has slowly widdled itself down to its least common denominator. To the point where people believe you dont need church at all, in fact only 20% of Europeans even go to church. Introducing this to our people could be potentially lethal, especially to our youth. So I ask you to report this to a bishop the moment you see anything like this. If that bishop refuses to listen, contact another. I would suggest contacting HG Bishop Anba Youssef. We need a call to arms, not to physical arms but ones of spiritual warfare, this is OUR church we cannot let it fall to worldly ideology.
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Comments

  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    If this pertains to a church in the southern diocese, i suggest you contact HGBY by email: http://suscopts.org/diocese/bishop/
  • IoannesIoannes
    I have already contacted him and plead for him to come visit but I am not in his diocese so he referred me to a Bishop much closer, hopefully he helps.
  • lfahmylfahmy
    I am a bit confused on how someone would get from being Orthodox and singing Protestant songs to being Protestant. This does seem a bit extreme. I am not calling you extreme. But this seems like a very large gap.
  • minasolimanminasoliman
    Ioannes, does your parish have the translations of the Eucharist hymns by the Southern US diocese? Perhaps, you can persuade them to use some of those and have the congregation learn to chant them with you. With some patience, you might win some souls to recognize the richness of these hymns and win more soldiers internally for your fight.
  • AntoniousNIkolasAntoniousNIkolas

    Ioannes.  I sent you a PM.

     

    Ifahmy, singing Protestant songs during our Liturgy - especially as the faithful process up to receive the Body of Our Lord - in highly inappropriate.  Ioannes is not being extremist in the least.

  • IoannesIoannes
    Ifahmy, I am not saying, nor did I ever say, that singing a protestant hymn makes you protestant. I am merely saying that this could start a process of protestantization. By singing these songs we validate them and by validating them we are making protestantism an equal to Orthodoxy. If they are both on equal terms then why struggle the Orthodox spiritual life? Thats what the youth will undoubtedly conclude, at least some of them will because we are essentially saying its all the same. Its funny that if you say "Allahu Akbar" which simply means "God is great" a Coptic person will undoubtedly chastise you but if you sing non-Orthodox songs they chastise you for suggesting we sing Orthodox songs. Logically we should be able to say Allahu Akbar if we want because it doesn't make us muslim, right?
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    Ioannes, what were the songs?
  • AntoniousNIkolasAntoniousNIkolas
    Good points, Ioannes. 
  • IoannesIoannes
    Mina, songs like "Our God is an awesome God" but the rest I cant remember the names to.
  • ReturnOrthodoxyReturnOrthodoxy
    My dude, preaching to the choir. Any attempt to convince priests with a certain mentality of embracing a true sense of Orthodoxy falls on the dumbest of ears. Unless your Bishop in North America is either Bishop Youssef or Bishop Serapion, you've fallen on some dumb luck.

    Mississauga Canada, where I'm from, is notorious for this garbage, and whats worse, it is known for its rejection of those who offer substitutes to the protestant influence creeping in. You'd think with thirteen priests and a bishop, we would have gotten to some point. Instead, after having a 3 hour meeting with the Bishop that left me questioning my very purpose, I asked to be excused to watch the hockey game. A much better use of my time.  

    Ray
  • RemnkemiRemnkemi

    I was waiting for Ray to chime in.

    Let's face the facts. This is not an isolated case. It is just more blatant. We shouldn't be surprised when we see dozens of conferences, who in the name of ecumenism, look for "a new approach to offer Jesus". It is a complete denial of the thousands of years Orthodoxy has offered Jesus with an exponentially better track record. We shouldn't be surprised when the latest trend is not only Protestant music in Coptic services, but Protestant theology in Coptic blogs calling for the removal of clergy and episcopal ranks, describing travelogues of Protestants and not late antique monastic journeys, showing memes that insult Coptic clergy or endorse songs that actually ridicule Coptic hymns, references to Protestant preachers instead of the patristic fathers, etc. (the list goes on and on). We shouldn't be surprised when fail to recognize that the increase of Protestantism has an inverse relationship with Coptic hymnology, Coptic agpeya, Coptic tasbeha, and Coptic discipleship. We shouldn't be surprised that this is nothing new either. If one were to evaluate all the Arabic songs that have been sung since the 60's in Church services, one will be so hard pressed to find one song that is not border-line Protestant.(The next time you hear an Arabic song, see if you hear the word "Trinity" or "Theotokos". Odds are you won't because it is a protestant song.) Why should we be surprised it is happening in English? It is just 50 years behind Arabic. Like Ray said, you would think we learned our lesson.

    Ioannes, you couldn't be more accurate in your description of the hypocrisy of modern Protestantism. I have said "allahu Akbar" and received the evil eye. It kills me when I have to explain that "God is Great" is no different than saying "God the Great" which is the first phrase in the reconciliation prayer in the Liturgy of St Basil. We throw out Coptic liturgical texts with deep theological meaning and time-proven liturgical phrases for touchy-feely phrases about how Jesus loves me. Even the Muslim liturgical phrase "Allahu Akbar" is theocentric, not egotistically androcentric. Even the entire fatiha of the Quran is theocentric. I'd rather be an ignorant muslim than a hypocritical, lackadaisical, self-centered, traveling-the-easy-way-out, enjoying-the-wide-road, complaining-that-Orthodoxy-doesn't-suit-me, wanting-the-grass-on-the-other-side-of-the-fence, more-interested-in-secular-Middle-Eastern-politics-than-the-salvation-of-the world, anti-intellectual, rather-listen-to-Taylor-Swift-than-the-liturgy, looking-for-ways-to-make-the-liturgy-sound-like-Taylor-Swift, rather-cut-my-hand-off-than-explain-the-meaning-of-Homosious, Miaphysitism, hypostasis, prosopon, nature and essence, Anti-Origenism, Anti-Apollonarianism, or even-care-to-know-why-it-matters, modern day Copt.

  • ReturnOrthodoxyReturnOrthodoxy
    Rem up to bat. Home run

    Ray
  • cyril
    “Come, true light. Come, eternal life. Come, hidden mystery. Come nameless treasure. Come, ineffable thing. Come, person who flees human comprehension. Come, ceaseless courage. Come, true hope of all who are being saved. Come, resurrection of the dead. Come, powerful one. You do everything always. You transform and change with a single gesture of the hand. Come, fully invisible, untouchable, impalpable. Come, you who always remain unmoving, though you hourly move and come to us, who lie in the underworld, though you yourself live above the heavens. Come, name most desired and encountered more than anything. But to say about you what you are or to know what you are, we are absolutely forbidden. Come, eternal joy. Come, unfading wreath. Come, purple of our great God and sovereign. Come, girdle, like a crystal transparent and studded with precious stones. Come, unapproachable refuge. Come, the king’s purple and the right hand of holy majesty. Come! My poor soul has needed and needs you. Come, alone to alone, for i am alone, as you see, Come! You have isolated me and made me alone on the earth. Come! You have become my need, and made it so that I have need of you, of you who are accessible to no one. Come, my breath and life. Come, the comfort of my contemptible soul. Come, my joy, glory and unceasing consolation. I give thanks to you because here, amid turbulence, change and dizzying motion, you have become a spirit one with me; and though you are God above all, you have become for me all in all.

    Ineffable drink! You can never be taken away, and you ceaselessly pour yourself into the lips of my soul, and copiously flow in the source of my heart. Shining garment, which burns demons. Purifying sacrifice! You bathe me with unceasing holy tears, copiously shed from your presence among those to whom you come. I give thanks to you because for me you have become an unfading day and a sun on the side of its setting. You have nowhere to hide yourself, and with your glory you fill universes. You have never hidden yourself from anyone, but we ourselves always hide from you, until we wish to come to you. For where can you hide, if there is not place where you can rest? Or why would you hide yourself, you who do not despise anyone, do not fear anyone? Create now out of me a tabernacle for yourself, meek Lord, and live in me, and until my death do not leave, do not separate yourself from me, your servant, so that I too, at my death and after my death, will abide in you and reign with you, God Who reigns over everything.

    Remain Lord and do not leave me alone, so that when my enemies come, who constantly seek to devour my soul, they will find you in me, and run away for good and not defeat me, because they will see you, stronger than all, inside, dwelling in the mansion of my humble soul. Truly, just as you remembered me, Lord, when I was in the world, and when without my knowledge you yourself chose me, and separated me from the world, and placed me before the face of your glory, so even now protect me through your unchanging, perfectly stable abiding in me, so the every day, contemplating you, I, mortal one, may live, so that, possessing you, I, poor one, may always be rich. This way, I would be more powerful than any king; and partaking of you and drinking you, and hourly being clothed in you, I would enjoy unutterable blessed delight. Since you are every good and every adornment and every delight, and to you belongs the glory of the holy and consubstantial Trinity, which is glorified in the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit, and is known and honored by the whole community of the faithful now and always and for ever and ever. Amen”

    Invocation to the Holy Spirit by St Symeon the New Theologian
  • cyril
    That hymn is really beautiful when sung.
  • Ousia
    edited October 2014

  • Ousia
    edited October 2014

  • EsmoEpchoisEsmoEpchois
    I'm curious as to what the bishop's responses are when they are told of these things? I would think they would be quick to try to stop any of these things from going on, not bore someone so much that they want to go watch hockey. Also, @Ioannes how is it that you have only seen this problem this past Sunday? It is a consistent problem in my church but for a while, actually before I found this forum, I kinda only thought this was a problem in my church. My priest started a worship team with some of the youth, who come after communion but before the sermon(our sermon is at the end of Liturgy) to sing a song or two.

    What are some orthodox hymns your church/you would suggest singing during communion?
  • minasolimanminasoliman
    I highly recommend these books:


    The first one more so than the second one.  Infiltrate this into your parish and to make things even more fruitful, teach about them and use them in your Sunday Schools as well.  Do not wait for action.  See if you can be proactive among the choir and begin using them.  They have no excuse once this is in their hands.
  • coptic_deacon
    Maybe the new Liturgical Institute they recently opened can be useful in ridding us of the swill that is Protestantism. Protestant songs have no musical depth, no linguistic significance, and lack any theological depth, musically. They have reduced christianity to "God loves me. PERIOD". Unfortunately, this 'understanding' of Christianity has infiltrated every aspect of coptic orthodoxy. 

    This wave of popularisation of faith has caused our bookshops to be filled with random crap like C.S. Lewis and those like him. I think C.S. Lewis can be useful but ONLY for apologetics and ONLY  as a supplementary source to the great early church writers. NOT AS AN ALTERNATIVE TO THEM AND CERTAINLY NOT FOR ANYTHING OTHER THAN APOLOGETICS. IN THE SAME WAY THAT ISAAC THE SYRIAN IS ONLY RELIED ON AS A MONASTIC AND SPIRITUAL WRITER NOT A THEOLOGICAL ACADEMIC, SINCE HE WAS A NESTORIAN. And protestant books should be clearly marked as such and separated from orthodox books. And that they should be insanely and disproportionately expensive, to discourage people from buying them.
  • qawe
    coptic_deacon said:

    This wave of popularisation of faith has caused our bookshops to be filled with random crap like C.S. Lewis and those like him. I think C.S. Lewis can be useful but ONLY for apologetics and ONLY  as a supplementary source to the great early church writers. NOT AS AN ALTERNATIVE TO THEM AND CERTAINLY NOT FOR ANYTHING OTHER THAN APOLOGETICS. IN THE SAME WAY THAT ISAAC THE SYRIAN IS ONLY RELIED ON AS A MONASTIC AND SPIRITUAL WRITER NOT A THEOLOGICAL ACADEMIC, SINCE HE WAS A NESTORIAN. And protestant books should be clearly marked as such and separated from orthodox books. And that they should be insanely and disproportionately expensive, to discourage people from buying them.
    I agree with you.  However, I urge you to take care in your criticism of CS Lewis specifically.  Lewis has been described by many Orthodox (EO and OO) as an 'anonymous Orthodox'.  For this reason, he may be a good gateway for those who are attached to reading popular Protestant books, to change to Orthodox writers.  I agree CS Lewis is not 100% ideal, but he is a million times better than Max Lucado, Purpose Driven Life, or, even worse, Heaven is For Real.  Pick your battles wisely.  Please read this article to see that CS Lewis isn't that bad: http://www.roadtoemmaus.net/back_issue_articles/RTE_29/Shine_As_The_Sun.pdf
  • qawe
    minasoliman said:

    I highly recommend these books:



    The first one more so than the second one.  Infiltrate this into your parish and to make things even more fruitful, teach about them and use them in your Sunday Schools as well.  Do not wait for action.  See if you can be proactive among the choir and begin using them.  They have no excuse once this is in their hands.
    These are all available on CopticReader too, right? You don't actually have to buy the physical book?
  • ReturnOrthodoxyReturnOrthodoxy
    I spent three hours my friend. I would say something, and for the next hour I would get many stories to illustrate a point I never disagreed with. Then when I show how the stories were irrelevant, he would go off on another hour long irrelevant tangent. Three hours of this. It was clear that his intention was not at all to hear and consider what was being said (his mind was made up far before hearing the kid whom his priests refer to as an extremist.) His intention was to defend his mind. I don't blame him. He is as much a victim of this hierarchical heretic ecclesiology which dictates "bigger hat, better truth." So why should he hear my. I don't even wear a ball cap.

     @minasoliman theyve never had an excuse. Never. I actually was disgusted to hear a "head of servants" in my church admit she refuses to read books because shed rather follow what the priests says. What despicable islamic trash is that? Since when has a man had his say on the truth become fact? I don't care what you wear. 

    The camps are:

    - Those who know the what is right and what is wrong but pretend like they don't because there is a personal benefit to being silent and compliant. Being lead deacon, head servant, in line for priesthood like some quasi-nepotistic system, or any stature. (I have experienced many of those and it really sickens me.)

    -Those who are unaware but have chosen to be unaware because of fear. These I consider atheists. Refusal of the truth is refusal of God. Deciding to hear man over searching for God is comparable to idolatry. 

    -The few unfortunate who have had truth robbed of them because they're servants are thieves of the truth of God's word.

    I spoke to one of these priests who recently invited a literal 6 day creationist to come to our church and spew his protestant filth. I confronted the priest who's only answer was "its none of your business." I was furious and so I said, "The souls of everyone in there is on your neck then. If what is spoken in there is truth, then you are a servant of God. If falsehood, you are a vessel of the devil. Make your decision wisely and don't let pride be the reason you feed Gods lambs to wolves."

    I've personally had enough with really trying anymore. In this ecclesiastically topsy-turvy Coptic church, you cannot do anything from the bottom. Find a way to wear black, and once there, find a way to keep Christ your center and the church your family. Do that, and maybe something will change. But its true, it will take hundreds of years to undo the ecclesiastical mess that the past some have thrown us in.

    Im sorry if I'm negative. I speak from scars. 

    Ray
  • minasolimanminasoliman
    qawe said:

    minasoliman said:

    I highly recommend these books:



    The first one more so than the second one.  Infiltrate this into your parish and to make things even more fruitful, teach about them and use them in your Sunday Schools as well.  Do not wait for action.  See if you can be proactive among the choir and begin using them.  They have no excuse once this is in their hands.
    These are all available on CopticReader too, right? You don't actually have to buy the physical book?
    I don't know qawe.  If they are, then even better.  You don't have to spend much money.  Just print the relevant pages for that Sunday and put them on the benches for people to follow along when the time comes to chant them.
  • OrthodoxFellowship
    edited October 2014
    it should be removed but God is just and fair to all maybe they must be orthodox or maybe not
  • qawe
    edited October 2014
    Remnkemi said:

    Why should we be surprised it is happening in English? It is just 50 years behind Arabic.

    Not quite 50 ;)

    (I'm channeling a certain unnamed poster here)
  • cyril
    edited October 2014
    On a side note, Vatican II and the Catechism of the Catholic Church has some of the most beautiful statements on Liturgical Theology. One could say that Vatican II has been misinterpreted and abused by some, but Vatican II also has a lot of material on what Roman Catholics call the "New Evangelization". Fr Robert Barron's ministry comes out of a proper assessment of Vatican II.

    Highly recommend reading the documents: 

    &
  • AntoniousNIkolasAntoniousNIkolas
    edited October 2014

    Some excellent posts here, especially Rem and Ray's respective masterpieces.  On the subject of how this stuff crept in and ruined the Catholic Church please read The Banished Heart: The Origins of Heteropraxis in the Catholic Church

     

    http://www.amazon.com/The-Banished-Heart-Heteropraxis-Fundamental/dp/0567442209/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1413372015&sr=8-1&keywords=heteropraxis

     

    It's a study of how this kind of "contemporary" stuff and the phronema that accompanies it destroyed the Catholic Church and made it the "clown mass" "liturgical dance" monstrosity it is today.  It could very well be the Coptic Church in 50 years if we leave Orthodoxy and persist in trying to "contemporize" the Church.

  • cyril
    Hi ReturnOrthodoxy,

    If it will take such a long time to undo the things mentioned, what are the people to do? Is beauty an issue?
  • IoannesIoannes
    I feel as if I have no other choice but to leave and go to an EO church, the Copts seem intent on shooting themselves and I don't want to be a part of that.
  • AntoniousNIkolasAntoniousNIkolas
    Ioannes said:

    I feel as if I have no other choice but to leave and go to an EO church, the Copts seem intent on shooting themselves and I don't want to be a part of that.


    Sometimes I really feel the same way.  If the Copts end up definitively accepting Protestant praxis - that is to say issuing official statements to the effect that it is okay under certain circumstances and in certain places - I will know that the church is no longer Orthodox and I'll have no choice but to leave.  God forbid that ever happens.  In the meantime, I'm going to fast, pray, and fight as hard as possible for my beloved Coptic Church.
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