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Coptic view of Civil Disobedience?

mcarmichaelmcarmichael
edited October 2014 in Coptic Orthodox Church
I'm asking because I would like to grow Cannabis as an ornamental plant. Is that okay?

Comments

  • qawe
    No
  • mcarmichaelmcarmichael
    edited October 2014
    Just "No"? Lol

    Well, what if I had a legitimate medical reason, and I lived in a state that it was still illegal?

    You've heard about these people with severe Epilepsy getting pretty good results with it in Colorado, yeah? Yet it remains a Schedule I controlled substance (No medicinal value) in the US of A at the federal level.

    Meanwhile, everybody's doing 5 mph over the speed limit all of the time.
  • coptic_deacon
    edited October 2014
    While I have no opinion regarding cannabis, I thought I'd address the issue of civil disobedience.

    Civility and conformism as an unspoken norm is merely a useless facade along with taboos and all other 'hush hush' nonsense. Christianity was born outside the law - secular Roman law and religious Hebrew law. Christians are only subject to civil law as a matter of persecution, considering we have no official laws, and free will takes precedence over all other secular rubbish. I do not mean that we can do what we wish and will inherit eternal life nonetheless, but that we have the liberty to choose the right path in preference to the myriad of other wrong paths, and unless we choose the right path of our own free will it is meaningless to be called a Christian. Constantine efforts to legalise Christianity are, in my opinion, the utmost permissible meeting point of Christianity and civil authority. The later efforts by Theodosius to establish Christianity as a state-religion were the single greatest calamity brought upon mankind since the original sin of Adam. No wonder Rome was sacked twice in his reign, before the eventual breakup of the Church in the thieving council held in Chalcedon. All subsequent western law has been influenced by this unholy marriage of faith and law, and as we have seen, the world was and continues to be a pretty crappy place to live in. With laws that excise pagans and scientists in the name of God, inquisitions that banish entire peoples in the name of God, encroachment of native lands in the name of God, the enslavement of peoples in the name of God, laws limiting freedom of expression and empowerment of political correctness, I'd say it's pretty crappy. No man has any right to infringe upon the liberty and free will of another, so when St. Paul writes to the Romans saying that government and authority is appointed by God, I suggest we examine his words in the appropriate historical context.

    As for the logic that seemingly informs the genius lawmakers who have taken it upon themselves to criminalise almost everything, we take a small peak at the laws of Portugal, where possession of small amounts of controlled substances hasn't been a criminal offence since 2001 and statistics show that by treating drug users as patients rather than criminals drug related deaths are lower than before such a law was enacted (http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/portugal-drug-decriminalization/ ) Compare this with other countries whose laws are so costly and ineffective where they are more focused on enacting stupid laws instead spending that money on the millions of people living in poverty.

    I suggest you do whatever you want, just make sure you know right from wrong.
  • cyril
    Martin Luther King Jr had some very interesting views of Civil Disobedience...

    "One may well ask: “How can you advocate breaking some laws and obeying others?” The answer lies in the fact that there are two types of laws: just and unjust. I would be the first to advocate obeying just laws. One has not only a legal but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws. I would agree with Saint Augustine that “an unjust law is no law at all.” Now, what is the difference between the two? How does one determine whether a law is just or unjust? A just law is a man-made code that squares with the moral law or the law of God. An unjust law is a code that is out of harmony with the moral law. To put it in the terms of Saint Thomas Aquinas: An unjust law is a human law that is not rooted in eternal law and natural law. Any law that uplifts human personality is just. Any law that degrades human personality is unjust. All segregation statutes are unjust because segregation distorts the soul and damages the personality. . . . In no sense do I advocate evading or defying the law. . . . That would lead to anarchy. One who breaks an unjust law must do so openly, lovingly, and with a willingness to accept the penalty. I submit that an individual who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for law."

    - Martin Luther King Jr., “Letter from a Birmingham Jail,” in I Have a Dream: Writings and Speeches (New York: HarperOne, 2003), 83-100.



    “We will match your capacity to inflict suffering...with our capacity to endure suffering. We will meet your physical force with soul force. We will not hate you, but we cannot in good conscience obey your unjust laws . . . and in winning our freedom, we will win you in the process.”
    - Martin Luther King Jr., “Stride toward Freedom,” in Martin Luther King Jr., A Testament of Hope (New York: Harper & Row, 1986).

  • mcarmichaelmcarmichael
    edited October 2014
    I have a dry mouth.

    I love that MLK Jr quote. I liked a lot of what coptic_deacon had to say as well, and there is plenty to say on this topic.

    Anyway I wanted to quote John here. "Your sister in Babylon said to say 'hi.'"

    (sp?)

    So.
  • cyril
    I really like what St John Chrysostom says in Homily on the Gospel of Matthew 18.1, using the translation found in The Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture, Matthew 1-13 (Chicago: InterVarsity Press, 2001), 118.
  • coptic_deacon
    @cyril what did he say?
  • mcarmichaelmcarmichael
    edited October 2014
    This is why you need [Versebot]

    "The disciples asked, 'Who then is the greatest in the kingdom of Heaven?'" (NASB, revised)
  • mcarmichaelmcarmichael
    @coptic_deacon - I'm a huge fan of civility. I was a boyscout in America. I didn't give a spit what "God and Country" was about. I was Protestant anyway. 

    So, civility. It's common courtesy, squared. It's a virtue, and I won't have you disparaging it.

    disparaging is my new favorite word.

    Civility is the human bond. Civility defines humanity. Humanity is not defined by civility, civility derives it's meaning from humanity. Yeah?
  • coptic_deacon
    @mcarmichael I didn't mean civility in the behavioural sense. I meant civil authority
  • mcarmichaelmcarmichael
    @coptic_deacon That makes more sense. :)
  • mcarmichaelmcarmichael
    edited October 2014
    coptic_deacon said:

    As for the logic that seemingly informs the genius lawmakers who have taken it upon themselves to criminalise almost everything, we take a small peak at the laws of Portugal, where possession of small amounts of controlled substances hasn't been a criminal offence since 2001 and statistics show that by treating drug users as patients rather than criminals drug related deaths are lower than before such a law was enacted (http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/portugal-drug-decriminalization/ ) Compare this with other countries whose laws are so costly and ineffective where they are more focused on enacting stupid laws instead spending that money on the millions of people living in poverty.
    About Portugal. That's an interesting statistic. 

    I wonder if it is offset by something sneaky, like a marijuana tax.

    Crime is reduced in Colorado, but isn't that to be expected when one takes one law off of the books?
  • mcarmichaelmcarmichael
    Or, relative to GDP, I assume.
  • coptic_deacon
    I think it was reduced regardless of its label as a crime or not.
  • mcarmichaelmcarmichael
    Wait, are you talking about Portugal or Colorado?
  • mcarmichaelmcarmichael
    coptic_deacon said:

    While I have no opinion regarding cannabis, I thought I'd address the issue of civil disobedience.

    Thank you for sharing on this topic @coptic_deacon

    That's a lot to chew on.


  • coptic_deacon
    I was talking about Portugal.

    @mcarmichael And to be honest, I really held back. It took everything I've got to hold back.
  • GirgisantonyGirgisantony
    Civil disobedience can be many things. For instance, if there is law which prohibits the use of cannabis, remember Romans 13 verses 1 and 2 (Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

    2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.) In other words, it would be a sin to disobey the law. However if for any reason, there is legislation which prohibits going to church or being a Christian, you ought to disobey those laws because they separate you from God. If we are without Christ we are nothing and we'll perish; remember to be Christian we have to live with Christ. 

  • coptic_deacon
    @Girgisantony

    Revelation Chapter 13:

    1 Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name. 
    2 Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like the feet of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority. 
    3 And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast.
    4 So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?”
    5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continuea for forty-two months.
    6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven.
    7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe,a tongue, and nation. 
    8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
    9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear. 
    10 He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
  • coptic_deacon
    @ Girgisantony

    That verse from Romans has been paraded around for years by people who don't understand that politics isn't one thing. There are many forms of government. They all suck but they're still imposed on us in one form or another.

    St. Paul was raised and lived in a virtual Hebrew theocracy. However, their theocracy was flawed because it lacked Christ. Much in the same way the modern theocracy in Iran is flawed because it lacks Christ. When he refers to higher powers ordained by God he refers to the spirit of community that Christians lived in in those times, i.e. a socialist interaction between all members of the Body, whereby the hierarchs are minimally supported by all Christians in their ecclesiastical jurisdiction. The only acceptable rule of law is church Canon. But even then, you have to choose that life to be called a true Christian rather than have it thrust upon you by force.

    All civil government is doomed. How can a doomed institution be ordained by and receive power from God? An institution which blasphemes against the Spirit, subverting the course of God-given free will, and wantonly commits murder to further its own mortal causes, is centred around currency, covetousness, and lechery?

    I don't want to offend you, but I despise blind conformism as a matter of convenience, and I think I'll stop now before I get too angry.

    GB
  • GirgisantonyGirgisantony
    I didn't say you should conform blindly but what's the point of disobeying a law which doesn't harm your spiritual life; you're only going to put yourself at odds with the system and you'll lose and end up in prison. Good luck trying to maintain your spiritual life in there. 
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