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Why do the Greeks hate us?

ZoxsasiZoxsasi
in Coptic Orthodox Church

why?

what is wrong with them?

Comments

  • ReturnOrthodoxyReturnOrthodoxy
    They hate us cuz they aint us!
  • ReturnOrthodoxyReturnOrthodoxy
    On a serious note, Athanasius Henein isn't really a genius. Lots of built of resentment that gets in the way of his reasoning. He's quite detestable if you ask me. Do some research. Ill respond later. In the mean time, others will discuss with you, Im sure. 
  • minasolimanminasoliman
    edited March 2015
    Ya I saw this a while back. This is out of resentment. I've spoken to some people on this former Coptic priest's case. He had issues with one of the bishops (take a good guess which), which lead to his suspension. He pleaded with many for him to be reinstated into the Church service, but to no avail. Later, he created this Monophysite narrative to find his new income with anti-Copt Greeks. It's a sad case that I would otherwise sympathize with him, but after this, I lost any respect I have for him for his deceit.
  • MonicaMonica
    Wow, totally frontin with our church. I love how he says "...so the Coptic woman is worse than the Islamic woman." Not making any judgements but why would you even insult another Christian? Let alone a female/human being in general. On another note he says that we simply see holy pics as pics; yet we pray towards them in reverence and reach out with our hand to then kiss it after touching the icon..so we don't really see it as "just a picture."
  • Tobit
    edited March 2015
    Hey Zoxasi
    "Abouna" athanasius henien is a former Coptic Orthodox priest who shepherded the small Coptic Orthodox community in Greece until he was censured multiple times by the Holy Synod which subsequently defrocked him (whether justly or unjustly, that's up for debate). Regardless, he refused to obey. He also spent more than 30 years learning in Greece. His wife is Greek and married her in a Greek Orthodox church before becoming a Coptic Orthodox priest. All this must have influenced him because was byzantine influenced for much of his life. He was always pictured with Greek hierarchy which in my opinion probably helped ease his way to their church with some influence. The Greeks can be notorious for that. He's good at rehashing old polemics. He makes many mistakes in the video which I won't go into here. When someone speaks with this much emotion & childishness he completely forgets the truth. He has completely betrayed himself.

    It is unfortunate that he makes videos like this because that will cut any chance of him being reinstated in the future, not that he would desire it anyway.
    He's a supposedly educated man and was a respected theologian and translator so the fact that he calls us monophysites is testimony to his dishonesty and malice towards the Coptic Orthodox church because he can't actually believe what he says unless the Greeks corrupted him more than we know. Either way, there's no love nor is there a spirit of forgiveness in his tone.

    He once came on an Arabic channel and talked about how we don't believe in uncreated energies of God, etc, etc. However, he knows we use different terminologies the fathers employed  & are synonymous. Just petty quarrels that he tries to ignite. He understands our Orthodoxy, but he's bitter nor is he any longer respected in EO circles. Avoid his videos and pray for him. I pity him because he's losing his soul with every dishonest attack on our Orthodox church. When he said that the Christology of our church is the same as Islam's, it put the final nail in his coffin as a man deemed worthy of a respectable opinion.

    I can say more but suffice it to say we ought to pray for him and not show him the hate that he shows us. May he acquire salvation where he is and God heal his soul.
  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi
    Thanks guys. Im cutting back on Souvlaki as a sign of solidarity. 

    I do agree, however, the Coptic woman is more or less just as a muslim woman. What's wrong with Muslim women anyway? They are good people. I hate this kind of generalisation. 

    This priest starts with "the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit" and then loathes a scathing attack on our Church based on lies.

    Doesn't that remind you of the Islamic fanatics who say "Allahu Akbar" before beheading someone or committing a crime. 

    If we believe, OBVIOUSLY, that Christ is God and is Divine, and yet He died on the cross, then OBVIOUSLY we are not Monophysite. We accept the 2 natures of Christ. This is pure evilness what these Greeks are doing.
  • qawe
    Zoxsasi said:

    If we believe, OBVIOUSLY, that Christ is God and is Divine, and yet He died on the cross, then OBVIOUSLY we are not Monophysite.
    No that's a faulty argument.  The monophysites believed God died on the cross.
  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi
    Ya Mister Qawe!

    How are you doing bro?

    Well - that's not what they are accusing us of in the video. They are saying that we are denying the human nature. 

    I think the term monophysism, for the EO, has a different meaning to what you are prescribing. To them, they take issue with St Cyril of Alexandria's definition of the One nature of the Incarnate Logos. To them, the term "ONE" Nature, is where the problem lies. They don't bother going to the rest of the sentence where it says "... of the Incarnate Logos". 

    St Cyril simply used the term "One Nature" to emphasis the fact that Christ's 2 natures, after the incarnation, did not separate, not for an instant, nor a "twinkling of an eye". If they didnt separate, then there's no point in separating them in our vocabulary. There's no point in calling them 2 natures of Christ as if one nature comes and goes as it pleases.


  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    edited March 2015
    Hey Guys,

    I don't think the content of the video is worth getting into theological and dogmatic arguments. I would rather getting into those topics in the appropriate discussions which probably exist if you do a search...or you can always begin a new objective discussion. 
  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi
    minatasgeel said:

    Hey Guys,


    I don't think the content of the video is worth getting into theological and dogmatic arguments. I would rather getting into those topics in the appropriate discussions which probably exist if you do a search...or you can always begin a new objective discussion. 
    Well, I think we've discussed that 1000 times already in this website. 

    I'm really surprised by all this animosity from the EO , still. I honestly thought things were looking brighter between us, and now I see videos like this??

    Are these EO priests representative of the entire EO body?? He mentions his bishop "Seraphim" - when attacking us, as if he has some sort of "green light" to just lie about our Church and Dogmas.

    How is the Ecumenical Dialogue between our churches progressing? Anyone have any news?
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    Zoxsasi said:

    minatasgeel said:

    Hey Guys,


    I don't think the content of the video is worth getting into theological and dogmatic arguments. I would rather getting into those topics in the appropriate discussions which probably exist if you do a search...or you can always begin a new objective discussion. 
    Well, I think we've discussed that 1000 times already in this website. 

    I'm really surprised by all this animosity from the EO , still. I honestly thought things were looking brighter between us, and now I see videos like this??

    Are these EO priests representative of the entire EO body?? He mentions his bishop "Seraphim" - when attacking us, as if he has some sort of "green light" to just lie about our Church and Dogmas.

    How is the Ecumenical Dialogue between our churches progressing? Anyone have any news?
    hmmmmm. have you read what Tobit, and minasoliman and RO said?! I thought they were clear enough about how much of this video represents the EO churches--which is really NOTHING.


  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi
    edited March 2015
    Mina/anyone,

    My comment was on how this affects ecumenical dialogue between us.

    I didnt see anyone talking/commenting about that.

    As far as I'm aware, Sayedna Anba Angaelos mentioned that the talks are going well between us (and the EO). How can that be, yet their priests are doing this??
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    Ya 7abib albi this one priest action doesn't affect the ENTIRE EO family dialogue.
  • minasolimanminasoliman
    edited April 2015
    Yes, that is true.  He is of the few loud voices that does not represent the general trend of the dialogue.  Nevertheless, I will say dialogue has been somewhat stagnant, not because of some sort of distrust and animosity, but because of various local situations that needs to be attended to.  We seem to just continue working together in hope that we reignite further advances for unity, with a few minor bumps along the road as well.
  • qawe
    Zoxsasi said:

    As far as I'm aware, Sayedna Anba Angaelos mentioned that the talks are going well between us (and the EO). How can that be, yet their priests are doing this??
    All ecumenical talks are in a perpetual state of "going well"
  • cyril
    qawe said:

    All ecumenical talks are in a perpetual state of "going well"

    I really hope there is more ground level cooperation and interaction. What often happens even in universities is that each jurisdiction also sets up their own "cultural" student associations instead of encouraging a pan Orthodox (both EO and OO) student group.

    National identity, isolation and self sufficiency and cultural pride often distract us in strange ways.
  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi
    We really need unity with the EO. Our faith will simply spiral into an Egyptian Country Club for Christians. Orthodoxy has to transcend cultural divides - if you wish to truly make the Church into a house of prayer, a house of worshipping God. 
  • cyril
    +1000
  • cyril
    I think we have lots to offer and to receive from such a union. Lord have mercy.
  • eshpherieshpheri
    Maximus Confessor resolved the theological problem of the unity of Christ's true humanity and true divinity, positing the perfect unity in love of Christ's divine and human wills. This laid the basis for both the sixth and seventh ecumenical councils. Why aren't we all building on that instead of gnawing over rival historical interpretations of Cyril of Alexandria? He was writing before the Byzantine monophysitism that really was monophysitism, influenced by Islam. Maximus is key to Christian unity today, not only among Orthodox but also for dialogue with western traditions that accept the councils. It is no surprise that Maximus' Christology was inextricably linked with both his understanding of the Liturgy and private prayer. He could see that it is all a unity, that the unity of the Person of Christ is the explanation of and foundation of everything.
  • RemnkemiRemnkemi

    Yes, but Fr Peter Ferrington's article, A Preliminary Conversation on the Will of Christ with an Eastern Orthodox Monk, discuss Maximus the Confessor's description of Oriental theology and showed a problem in his understanding of the Oriental Churches. Of course, this is only a preliminary discussion and not a condemnation of Maximus the Confessor. It nevertheless shows that Maximus the Confessor cannot be taken as absolute authority (much like Cyril of Alexandria) without first addressing some issues with Maximus the Confessor. 

    With that said, you are correct. Maximus the Confessor's discussions on prayer, liturgy and theology are very Orthodox and we should be building on this. As Fr Peter says, "Let me say at the outset that much of what Maximos says is immediately and completely acceptable to an Oriental Orthodox Christology. However, there are also turns of phrase which produce some confusion as to what exactly he means. It would seem to me that those things which I will describe and agree with in this response are those areas where an Eastern Orthodox might have most concerns about the Oriental Orthodox position, and those places where I do have some confusion about what Maximos means are, I expect and hope, to be understood in a manner which is consistent with a Cyrilline Christology."

  • eshpherieshpheri
    Maximos is certainly difficult to appreciate in all his subtlety, and many people devote their lives to the attempt. I can only say that after 30 years of studying Maximos I believe that Cyril would have been happy with his developments. After all, Maximos writes in the context and tradition of Alexandrian ascetical theology, which he had to refine in the face of very serious and subtle theological threats. So yes please, let us all build on that, and if we find any concrete problems with Maximos, we can discuss them as they arise.
  • minasolimanminasoliman
    edited April 2015
    We don't need to build on Maximus the Confessor, regardless of his theological acumen. Our very own St. Severus of Antioch and possibly St. Theodosius of Alexandria a century before Maximus wrote on the will of Christ in an OO context that, while may essentially agree theologically with Maximus the Confessor, is wholly sufficient on its own without him that we can develop our own customs and traditions from them without borrowing from another tradition. This is nothing against EOs, but it reflects the same spirit that the churches always had with various theological traditions, like the Syriac tradition of St. Ephrem, St. John Chrysostom, and St. Jacob of Serugh, the Alexandrian tradition of St. Athanasius and St. Cyril, and the Greek tradition of the Cappadocians.

    Therefore, I don't see any reason why we need to build on something that is not inherent in our tradition when we can search through the various unread treasures of our own OO fathers.
  • qawe
    eshpheri said:

     It is no surprise that Maximus' Christology was inextricably linked with both his understanding of the Liturgy and private prayer.

    Where can I read more on this?
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