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Which way do deacons face?
At my church, we are now beginning to establish our first deacon's chorus and our priest and servants were discussing which way the deacons would face while standing up on the platform (I don't know what it's called, where deacons stand on). Some said that facing sideways will cause distraction and some said that facing towards the East seemed the traditional way. My priest thus decided that we will try both ways and we will decide which would be better for the chorus. Is there any suggestions or rites of the church that particularly refer to this. Thanks everyone!
Comments
Even the deacon calls out: Unto the East Look.
They should face the East.
Even the deacon calls out: Unto the East Look.
So if we should always face the East. Why is not the Chorus designed to face the East?
I don't know what you mean by the second part of your statement.
Are you speaking of the physical chorus area? If so, there should be no seats and all should face the East.
Seats are a modern novelty.
If you are speaking of the chorus members, then it relates to some modern aberration for a whole slew of implied
reasons of "practicality".
Why does the priest face the East?
Why do the deacons of the altar face the Altar?
Why do the people face the East/Altar?
It seems a bit out of step that the only people not facing God are the Chorus.
Copticandproud,
I don't know what you mean by the second part of your statement.
Are you speaking of the physical chorus area? If so, there should be no seats and all should face the East.
Seats are a modern novelty.
If you are speaking of the chorus members, then it relates to some modern aberration for a whole slew of implied
reasons of "practicality".
Why does the priest face the East?
Why do the deacons of the altar face the Altar?
Why do the people face the East/Altar?
It seems a bit out of step that the only people not facing God are the Chorus.
I was referring to the seats. Can you tell me more about when those seats were first introduced?
When you visit the monasteries, you will find that everything is set up to face the East, and there are no benches (pews).
At my church, we are now beginning to establish our first deacon's chorus and our priest and servants were discussing which way the deacons would face while standing up on the platform (I don't know what it's called, where deacons stand on). Some said that facing sideways will cause distraction and some said that facing towards the East seemed the traditional way. My priest thus decided that we will try both ways and we will decide which would be better for the chorus. Is there any suggestions or rites of the church that particularly refer to this. Thanks everyone!
It's called the chancel :)
Dear all,
I was taught that during the first part of the liturgy, I.e. during the readings deacons face the lectern, and also singing hymns during that period.. after the Gospel response, deacons should face towards the East, until Communion where even altar deacons face towards the Body of Christ.. it's not a matter of trial and error.. it's part of the rites.. correct me if I'm wrong though
Oujai
We were taught always to face the east when there is direct function in the altar: Offertory, the Incense Processions, the Anaphora. This pretty much consumes the majority of the time factor. We were taught that the Reading of the Holy Gospel requires that we turn to the Reader/Reading place, because the Word of God is being revealed.
Putting Praxis to the side and going to the practical: I really don't think we should be looking at each other. It inspires thoughts and changes in focus. I have to tell you in all honesty, when I turn to the East I function well, I keep my focus, I don't make mistakes. When I have to look across the way, mistakes fly and I lose focus.
I think on a simple note, without much further elaboration, the best descriptive: I would rather look at the Glory of God than my fellow in mankind.
O.D.,
We were taught always to face the east when there is direct function in the altar: Offertory, the Incense Processions, the Anaphora. This pretty much consumes the majority of the time factor. We were taught that the Reading of the Holy Gospel requires that we turn to the Reader/Reading place, because the Word of God is being revealed.
Putting Praxis to the side and going to the practical: I really don't think we should be looking at each other. It inspires thoughts and changes in focus. I have to tell you in all honesty, when I turn to the East I function well, I keep my focus, I don't make mistakes. When I have to look across the way, mistakes fly and I lose focus.
I think on a simple note, without much further elaboration, the best descriptive: I would rather look at the Glory of God than my fellow in mankind.
This probably has something to do with the original separation of the Liturgy into the Liturgy of the Catechumen and the Liturgy of the Believers.
I agree with qawe.. I guess so too..
OUJai
It seems a bit out of step that the only people not facing God are the Chorus.
I visited a church for Holy Week and Resurrection this year and the deacon behind me tapped me a few times and told me to turn to him (I was facing the East) so "we can hear each other". Little did he know that I faced the East primarily to focus on the liturgy as instructed by the altar deacon but also because his voice was killing me and I didn't want to be in a direct line of him.
One more example of ILSM's observations/prophecies being validated by "below standard" acts of the diaconate. The more I try to prove ILSM wrong, the more I sing his doxology. (By the way, you never critiqued or commented (again) on that doxology. Coptic hymn-writing is hard stuff.) I digress.
This deacon was so adamant that I should face the South and he was getting mad at me for facing the East. I don't think I have to mention that I was not very comfortable this year at Pascha week.
Firstly, I am a Profit not a Prophet.
Secondly, ear plugs do wonders.
Thirdly, when you get ridiculous requests, make believe you speak Spanish or Portuguese.
Fourthly, when you serve in the altar, say the response: "wa ilal ibli ondhoro". When you get chastized at the end of the Liturgy for saying South instead of East, you repond: "I did not want to judge my brothers or embarass them for standing in the wrong direction, so I told everyone to look at the South."
Fifthly, did you get permission from your home parish to go visit another parish for Pascha. A good deacon gives his priest a heads-up and seeks his permission. I have no doubt that you did that, but I used it as a rhetorical tool to teach a point.
Sixthly, you should have told that deacon that battery for the microphone is running out, and this is his last chance to do a solo and get the voice with microphone juice together--that you did not want to take the glorious moment away from him.
Seventhly, get a Chinese compass with the arrows facing the wrong way and prove to him that you are looking at the South and that, he, really is looking at the east. In this manner you are using reverse compass psychology on him.
Eighthly, since he tapped you, I would get a lawyer and sue for some sort of assault.
Ninethly, I was embarassed by your doxology. It was funny, but I didn't want to admit it. I generally refrain from the use of any of the tunes of the Church for jest. However, since I don't exist, then there was no harm, and for that matter (transcendentally) it never happened. Although, I printed out a copy and showed it to a couple of people and they needed oxygen from the laughter.
Tenthly, the more I learn of St. Mark, the more I amazed by such a young man. What a wonderful man he is!
Eleventhly, I do not think that I will see Pope Shenouda in the North or the South or the West. I will one day see Pope Shenouda, I correct myself, the Great and Saintly Pope Shenouda in the East, seated next to the Master, Who is seated at the Right of the Father. No one will have that view by looking at the three other Cardinal directions.
I miss Pope Shenouda. I really, really, really miss him.
Twelfthly, The Holy Jerusalem, that Wonderfully Bride, where there is no sorrow or grieving or even Sun, but only the Love and Glory of God, Who is in the Center, is in the East.
Did I say it emotionally enough: I miss Pope Shenouda--a lot. I hope that God grants that day that I will look towards the East and see all of my fathers seated around the Throne as I have envisioned in my dreams and hopes.
I just started crying, so I guess there won't be a thirteenthly.
At my church, we are now beginning to establish our first deacon's chorus and our priest and servants were discussing which way the deacons would face while standing up on the platform (I don't know what it's called, where deacons stand on). Some said that facing sideways will cause distraction and some said that facing towards the East seemed the traditional way. My priest thus decided that we will try both ways and we will decide which would be better for the chorus. Is there any suggestions or rites of the church that particularly refer to this. Thanks everyone!
Face the east except during readings. During readings, you face the Katamars. This is why the seats are oriented that way. The only time we should be sitting down is during readings and the sermon, so the seats face the Mangalia (the reading platform) which holds the Katamars
Dear morcousw,
There were no pews in the church in the past, nor in monasteries at present.. sitting is not part of the rites, and it's just the leniency of man on himself that allows what shouldn't be
Oujai
REM,
Firstly, I am a Profit not a Prophet.
And I always profit from your proficies. ;D You mean to tell me that when you travel with Bishop David to other churches, you have ear plugs in your deacon bag? It's genius. But if I go down that path, I'll have an army dufflebag with emergency deacon equipment. I don't need to lie. I only speak Coptic. I think someone must have used this trick on them. They now double fist microphones. I guess they figured two microphones are louder than one? (BTW, I'm not joking. They really do double fist microphones) Tapping was not the only thing done to me. I was pushed out of the way because I was too closed to the "head deacon" with multiple microphones. As the only speaking internet phenomena that doesn't exist yet exists outside my schizophrenic mind, I was only aiding you on your path for the Nobel Prize in the original thread. And while I was joking, behind the joke is a real, very important spiritual message. Emotional or not, this is why we sing "We look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the age to come." This is what St Paul meant by "so great a cloud of witnesses". This is the mark of true faith: Knowing we are citizens of a celestial city, waiting to return home to our family with God in our midst. Its not a matter of hope and dreams. It is factual testimony in the Gospel. And I miss Pope Shenouda a lot too.
[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=13305.msg155590#msg155590 date=1337131072]
REM,
Firstly, I am a Profit not a Prophet.
And I always profit from your proficies. ;D You mean to tell me that when you travel with Bishop David to other churches, you have ear plugs in your deacon bag? It's genius. But if I go down that path, I'll have an army dufflebag with emergency deacon equipment. I don't need to lie. I only speak Coptic. I think someone must have used this trick on them. They now double fist microphones. I guess they figured two microphones are louder than one? (BTW, I'm not joking. They really do double fist microphones) Tapping was not the only thing done to me. I was pushed out of the way because I was too closed to the "head deacon" with multiple microphones. As the only speaking internet phenomena that doesn't exist yet exists outside my schizophrenic mind, I was only aiding you on your path for the Nobel Prize in the original thread. And while I was joking, behind the joke is a real, very important spiritual message. Emotional or not, this is why we sing "We look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the age to come." This is what St Paul meant by "so great a cloud of witnesses". This is the mark of true faith: Knowing we are citizens of a celestial city, waiting to return home to our family with God in our midst. Its not a matter of hope and dreams. It is factual testimony in the Gospel. And I miss Pope Shenouda a lot too.
Such a witty, irrelevant convo