A separation is, like Fr. Peter said, an avenue in which the Church uses in an attempt to heal the marriage. It is a period where both parties would try to work their differences along with the Church guidance. Both parties are still obliged to one another with regards to the sacrament of marriage.
Often what takes place, in Egypt, the husband changes his religion to Islam, to force the woman to come back through state power. This is when things get messy. If this happens, then the wife must go back and often she and her kids must change their religion and become Muslims
That is why the Church may push the wife to go back to avoid this from taking place.
You see, things are not that easy and requires wisdom from the Church. We can sit here and judge how the Church should do things based on our perspective of things.
Sometimes, it may be preferable to sustain abuse than to lose eternal life. I know that this is harsh but the Lord did require us to carry the cross and enter through the narrow rough road to enter the Kingdom.
Pray that the Lord may bless every marriage and give the Church the wisdom to lead her children.
Has the Church stood against this unjust law? Has there been agitation in the West to make this practice known?
I do have to say that the situations I have heard of where women have been pressured to return to abusive husbands have all happened in the West though.
In Egypt, the courts are obliged to enforce the Islamic law if the the husband is Muslim. No way around it. That is why the Church finds herself tied in choosing between two evils.
Numerous times, the husbands who are in error threaten the priests and the bishops that they will change their religion and force the wife and the kids to go back. There is a away around it but it is a very tricky one.
As far as what the West does regarding these injustices nothing. I do not want to start politics but the West have sustained unjust regimes for so long.
What is interesting is that many of those who become Muslims and want to come back as Christians cannot do it and would be targets for death if they try....
From what I understand, the Church has now for long years been attempting to convince the Egyptian government to pass laws allowing religious marriages to be governed separately from civil marriages, i.e. to allow autonomy when it comes to marriage and divorce. There have been highly publicised cases over the last few years in which the government has been attempting to force the Church to divorce certain individuals, with the Church refusing because of the Lord's commandment.
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=11331.msg136972#msg136972 date=1304204648] BTW, Anba Boula is in Saint Mark's Church jersey city right now....watch/listen to the broadcast http://www.copticchurch.net/live/index.php
It's awesome that you do live broadcasts!
It is quite weird hearing the American accents I must say though :D
[quote author=JG link=topic=11331.msg136973#msg136973 date=1304204798] [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=11331.msg136972#msg136972 date=1304204648] BTW, Anba Boula is in Saint Mark's Church jersey city right now....watch/listen to the broadcast http://www.copticchurch.net/live/index.php
It's awesome that you do live broadcasts!
It is quite weird hearing the American accents I must say though :D
I wanted to reopen this thread because I had a few questions.
How does annulment work when there is adultery? I mean, if you are not in a diocese with a bishop what happens? How do you get to see HG Bishop Paula or get in touch with him? What happens? How long does it take in an obvious admission case with evidence? Are you given a paper? Is the decision made on the spot? Is it a difference if the marraige has been for a few years but there is no reconciliation possible anymore rather than something in the first year of marraige? etc.?
There are no tangible or exact answers to any of the questions you pose.
The parish priest will facilitate an introduction or presentation of the case to Bp Bula. The case is written up and investigated a lot of times by the parish priest as part of the presentation. The process can be short or drawn out over a year depending on the details and the ability to confirm details. There is a writ that is presented with the relative annulment and the reason as well as the permission to remarry within the corpus of the Church.
Unfortunately, I have had to witness the process too many times, and it is very painful.
What is the difference between annulment and divorce in terms of remarrying, etc assuming you are not found to be the one at fault? Can someone who is granted an annulment or divorce still be a priest? Also, does anyone know when Anba Paula will be coming to the U.S. or how to contact him? Thanks
[quote author=frankju link=topic=11331.msg155820#msg155820 date=1337648585] What is the difference between annulment and divorce in terms of remarrying, etc assuming you are not found to be the one at fault? Can someone who is granted an annulment or divorce still be a priest? Also, does anyone know when Anba Paula will be coming to the U.S. or how to contact him? Thanks
I believe that there are no canons against a person who is lawfully divorced/annulled, gets married and than become a priest but i just don't don't see it much as the choice of him becoming a priest wouldn't be a popular one.
Actually, yes there is a canon. Canon 17 of the Canons of the Twelve Apostles: "He who has been twice married after his baptism, or has had a concubine, cannot be made a bishop, or presbyter, or deacon, or indeed any one of the sacerdotal catalogue."
As I said in another thread, I think this is more of a guideline than a law. If a person married twice is found worthy of the priesthood, and the bishops and the community approve, then they can ordain that person.
It's in the Ant-Nicene Fathers series. And there are many other canons there also. But I don't think this there is such a thing as "all the canons of the church". The Roman Catholic have their own list, the Chalcedonians have their own and the Orientals have their own. This is due to the fact that not all churches attended every council and not every church accepts or validates the other churches' lists (especially when some canons have to do with "New Rome", "Old Calendar" and all that type of nonsense).
Fr. Peter, please bless me: I first want to apologize to you and the disinterested readers who believe that the papal election discussion is sufficient for the present time. It seemed to me that you had reluctantly closed the Selection of a New Pontiff discussion. I thought the closing was requested for personal agenda reasons. So, I inadvertently opened a new discussion shortly after you had locked all discussions of this subject when you closed the canon15.ca discussion, which I had not noticed before I posted. I don’t believe the general bishop issue has been sufficiently discussed from my thick headed review of the discussions, but I would not have opened the new discussion had I been aware of your closing of the issue. Thank you for your kind and thorough explanation for closing the issue. Please remember me when you pray.
I’ve been traveling; trying to understand and comment on the papal election process and issues; trying to respond to some more seemingly very vicious, untrue, unsubstantiated slanders and defamations (blessings); haven’t had the ability, knowledge or time to continuously stay abreast of all discussions; and consequently completely missed this discussion, in which I have a very deep interest and too much sad experience.
I also want to note that I have read through this discussion and haven’t noticed any mention of and reference to the crucial, relevant Apostolic or Patristic detailed teachings on this vital subject matter. Too much personal imagining, hand wringing, pontificating and speculating, but very little expressed interest in God’s sufficient, eternal patriarchal gender and family commandments, which are focused directly at this issue and have served all divisions of the church, nearly perfectly, from the Apostles through the times of the papacy of HH Pope Kyrillos VI, until the outbursts of and acquiescence to militant atheistic feminism/ freudianism by nearly all of these same divided churches. Craved-for unity has been achieved on this evil issue. Admirably, Copticuser20, imikhail and minatasgeel (sorry if I missed someone else) persisted in the simple truth, inspite of the onslaught to compromise. The dialectic/ diaprax failed, no synthesis/ compromise, yet. A living demonstration of holy patriarchy., against the best opinion changing technique of the modern world. They showed the type of pope that I want.
This discussion also implied the wisdom of the Apostolic Tradition of independent geographic/ cultural bishops/ churches to deal with the special worldly peculiarities of the various nations/ cultures. Should we compromise God’s holy family patriarchy (imperfect, sinful father headed families) to try to defeat/ destroy Islamic patriarchal families from within? Seems like a lose-lose, demonic feminist propaganda win, strategy to me. This issue, ecumenism, is also worthy of discussion concerning the selection of our new pope.
My last, and most difficult challenge here is to express in deep love and respect, my sadness to see the degree of feminist propaganda and mindset that you seem to be troubled by. You had mentioned in an earlier post that you had been deeply impressed by speakers and tears at a World Council of Churches Conference on Abused Women. I wish that there were no anger and violence in the world, especially mine. Please don’t let the propaganda make you forget that the feminists that have taken charge of the World Council of Churches have been the prime movers in convincing/ coercing most of the Western “christian” churches to move toward divorce, abortion, homosexuality, women, lesbian and homosexual priests, bishops and marriages, etc. They are very skillful (demonic?) propagandists. Fraternization with the WCC is a greased slippery slope toward their goal of homogenous pantheAcratic one world religion (moldable freudianism) and seemingly the pits of perdition itself. Even more horrendously biased “testimony” could easily be constructed against women in general, beginning with casual genocidal (violent?) abortion. Is this worse than the frequency and severity of Coptic wife beating? It destroys most of the evidence. Should a father violently restrain his wife from aborting his child? If Coptic men are the standard for wife beating, the rest of the world is an inhuman slaughter house. And we provoke some of his anger by mettling into the household that God has given him the responsibility to rule. Gen. 3:16b. Doesn’t every national feminist organization charge there own men as “most cruel?” This can be a human battleground. Democracy won’t work, God made us in a 50-50 deadlock and designated the ruler to resolve that. Whose weapons are we going to choose? And spousal rape, of his or her own body? What scripture verse, Holy Father, or Mother, orthodox marriage liturgy defines this? Who is the spiritual criminal in this scene? Canadian OCA priest, Fr. Lawrence Farley has audio recorded a very deep, orthodox commentary on St. Peter’s First Epistle. <ancientfaithradio.com>. His series is entitled Coffee Cup Commentaries (a little Celtic humility?). The series is about 17-20 hours (in 10 minute segments), and yet, he doesn’t even get to the Epistle’s patriarchal basis. If you only look at the feminist trees, it is impossible to see the patriarchal forest. Fr. Farley posted a related article, Naming the Debate, (on orthodox women ordination, etc.) on <ocanews.com>, a few months ago, just before (not because) the site closed. We read extensively from St. Peter’s Epistle in our daily and Sunday Catholicon. This is strong eternal spiritual medicine from the Prince of the Apostles, whom we are now remembering. He is still THE MAN of Christ, our God. Application of his brief, clear, simple family plan enabled family peace and unity throughout Christendom for about 1950 years. What alternative has comparable credentials, even possibilities?
I’m sorry that I missed the discussion. I hope someone missed me. Ecclesiastical divorce really isn’t of much consequence, compared to civil divorce, to most divorced U.S. Coptic fathers and their virtually fatherless Coptic children. Some fathers dream of a happy remarriage, but this can be even more troublesome. As St. Paul told us, it is probably best not to remarry. On the other hand, in most cases that I’ve seen, the husband is the helpless innocent victim of the “no-fault” divorce by a greedy, rebellious wife. Her adultery is no impediment to a successful child custody and property award to the wife in any U.S. jurisdiction that I am aware of. Only the divorced father victims seem to have the stomach to reluctantly notice and discuss this approaching U.S. Coptic spiritual epidemic and its generational consequences. Most of these grieved Coptic fathers have very noticeably pleaded to their disinterested bishops and priests for corrective therapeutic spiritual action. Silence, mercenary freudian placebo, and then ridicule. Finally, LEAVE US ALONE. Maybe you have noticed that I don’t hear that ORDER any more. Please pray for me and for the hundreds of Coptic children who won’t have supper with their father tonight., for two weeks, forever. Forgive me if I have offended you or caused you to sin.
[quote author=irishpilgrim link=topic=11331.msg156704#msg156704 date=1339626748] Only the divorced father victims seem to have the stomach to reluctantly notice and discuss this approaching U.S. Coptic spiritual epidemic and its generational consequences. Most of these grieved Coptic fathers have very noticeably pleaded to their disinterested bishops and priests for corrective therapeutic spiritual action. Silence, mercenary freudian placebo,
Before you turn around and say that I masterfully omitted the bulk of your message because of my extreme Freudian feminism, try to address my question directly. You claim that when divorced fathers discuss the Coptic spiritual epidemic, the Coptic "disinterested bishops and priests" have supplied nothing but silence and "mercenary freudian placebo". What exactly is a "mercenary freudian placebo"? Mercenary, by definition, means "Primarily concerned with making money at the expense of ethics". As far as I can see, the clergy have no monetary benefit from promoting divorce. All the clergy offer are the sacraments and advice - none of which is charged or has a fee. But, according to you, I'm a feminist and I don't know what I'm talking about. So hopefully, you can explain how the clergy is making money at the expense of ethics. Placebo, by definition, means "A harmless pill, medicine, or procedure prescribed more for the psychological benefit to the patient than for any physiological effect" What pill or placebo have been given to divorced fathers? And if any such pill or procedure was prescribed to divorced fathers, it is harmless. It cannot, by definition, be the cause for a spiritual epidemic.
Notice how I did not ask you for your definition of "Freudian". I've asked many times and you haven't provided one even though you claim everyone is Freudian.
Generally, I try to only relate matters which I feel that I have experienced and verified sufficiently that I believe them to be true, and to be relevant to the plain gender and family commandments of the Holy Bible, and especially those explained clearly by SS Peter and Paul and St. Chrysostom. I hope that I will quickly retract and/ or explain any misstatement that is pointed out to me.
I know that the current general heresies against these traditional orthodox truths by modern feminism and freudianism have been successfully propagandized throughout western education, culture and so-called modern “christianity.” Sadly, the current secularly educated and compromised, progressive leadership of the U.S. Coptic Church clearly seem to be stealthily “joining” the happy crowd on this wide, easy way to family destruction (civil divorce). Mt. 7:13.
Of course, it is your burden to decide to rationalize, or to retract, false, faricated defamations used in support of your advocacies. Christ’s encouragement to endure these is good enough for me. Thank you for these blessings. But I wonder about the seeming confusions to some who are struggling with these issues, especially feminism (and freudianism) propagandized young Coptic men and women, and the stunned, innocent divorced Coptic fathers and children who have very little realistic comprehension of this brutal betrayal, and, usually subtle, ridicule that they will experience for the rest of their lives. They have experienced why God hates divorce and its violence and faithlessness. Malachi 2:16.
Posted by: Remnkemi « on: June 14, 2012, 08:57:21 AM » Insert Quote Quote from: irishpilgrim on June 13, 2012, 05:32:28 PM Only the divorced father victims seem to have the stomach to reluctantly notice and discuss this approaching U.S. Coptic spiritual epidemic and its generational consequences. Most of these grieved Coptic fathers have very noticeably pleaded to their disinterested bishops and priests for corrective therapeutic spiritual action. Silence, mercenary freudian placebo,
Before you turn around and say that I masterfully omitted the bulk of your message because of my extreme Freudian feminism, try to address my question directly. You claim that when divorced fathers discuss the Coptic spiritual epidemic, the Coptic "disinterested bishops and priests" have supplied nothing but silence and "mercenary freudian placebo". What exactly is a "mercenary freudian placebo"? Mercenary, by definition, means "Primarily concerned with making money at the expense of ethics". As far as I can see, the clergy have no monetary benefit from promoting divorce. All the clergy offer are the sacraments and advice - none of which is charged or has a fee. But, according to you, I'm a feminist and I don't know what I'm talking about. So hopefully, you can explain how the clergy is making money at the expense of ethics. Placebo, by definition, means "A harmless pill, medicine, or procedure prescribed more for the psychological benefit to the patient than for any physiological effect" What pill or placebo have been given to divorced fathers? And if any such pill or procedure was prescribed to divorced fathers, it is harmless. It cannot, by definition, be the cause for a spiritual epidemic.
Notice how I did not ask you for your definition of "Freudian". I've asked many times and you haven't provided one even though you claim everyone is Freudian.
I am really puzzled by seemingly sincere, but deceptive, invitations to dialectical dialogue; especially in a seemingly Orthodox Christian context. They are like oil and water; feminism/ freudianism and Holy Patriarchy; bread, temptation, world’s glory and God’s Word. They won’t mix. Mt. 4:1-11; Mk. 1:12,13; Lk. 4:1-13.
Freudian vs. freudian? Twentieth century psych- vs. soul? No thanks, these are endless, pointless word games. I use the term freudian to broadly define all proponents and systems related to and derived from the commonly known, (atheistic) Freudian pseudo “sciences.” The clearest explanation and demonstration of “freudian,” as I use the term is shown, by the freudian industry itself, in the four hour long, award winning BBC documentary video series, THE CENTURY OF THE SELF.
I have made a run through U.S. Coptic websites to review the new growth and “progress” of Coptic mercenary freudianism. The growth and seemingly related costs to support this rapidly growing, seeming heretical empire, seem to be smothering the last vestiges of the teaching and practicing of God’s patriarchal gender and family commandments to all ages of this generation of Coptic men, women and children.
RIGHT COAST: St. Mary, East Brunswick, N.J. Proto church of U.S. Coptic civil divorce provoked murder (MARTYRDOM?). http://www.saint-mary.net/ladiesmeeting/. I can’t tell the book by its cryptic feminist artwork and Arabic cover. http://www.saint-mary.net/familyfootprints/survey/survey.asp. Surveys of “wants” is often the first step in freudian sheep herding. What do the sheep want? What is the scriptural basis for this concern? Hasn’t this pseudo-wisdom been seen before? Genesis 3? 1 Samuel 8?
I don’t have much personal experience with upper East Coast civil divorce. This is probably because the attorney/ freudian divorce industry has seemingly been relatively restrained in this formerly traditional (prolific Irish/ German/ immigrant) Catholic influenced region. My divorce victim son and his second generation divorce victim children suffered an acrimonious, secular rebellious wife caused civil divorce in NYC. His victim children received two “half families,” they spend alternate two week periods with each parent. At least, they have a divorce traumatized, secular, emotionally “amputated” father for half of their minority. This type of limitation on the rebellious wife’s divorce “jackpot” would tend to decrease the divorce rate and consequent greedy business/ sales volume of the local divorce industry.
BOSTON: http://www.stmarkboston.org/. Clean, Orthodox website. Just orthodox church matters. I was surprised and pleased to not see any feminist/ freudian influences of The Seven Sisters. I hope this community is a rare Boston area refuge from their rebellions. Do their graduates and students pray on the women’s side, with their heads covered? Amazing, if true. Do they demand that only a gender neutral bible be read at Liturgy? in bible study? Do they demand to be readers? chanters? Deacons? Priests? Bishops? They have led the destruction of nearly every other “christian” institution. I’ve never seen it, but I suspect that their influence in the Boston Greek Orthodox churches would make me cry. I will definitely have to visit to see with my eyes. Please do not compromise with them.
I have no idea what the Coptic wife caused civil divorce rate is here. Maybe the local civil divorce industry is consumed with more convenient, lucrative immorality, graft and corruption. What are the incidences of civil divorce in this community? How many in the last twenty years? How many minor Coptic children victims? Surely with all of these freudians, someone has the surveys, studies and statistics.
HEARTLAND: CHICAGO: From their websites, St. Mary, St. Mark and St. George seem rock solid, patriarchal, striving for the Orthodox bullseye, not publicly distracted by feminism or freudianism. No “women’s meeting,” no “counselling.” Only Abuna, as it has been since St. Mark. I wonder what their Coptic wife caused divorce incidence is? How many divorce victim minor children?
http://www.chicagocopts.org/forum/index.php. Pretty much what you would expect in Chicago. No priest, no names, many promises and goals, even a read only forum. Right out of HIS HONOR’S political bible. Ssshh, some here may like this “read only forum” idea!!
The only web Chicago Coptic freudian suspect is: https://stpaulchicago.com/aboutus/vision.php. So, the freudian camel has his nose into this community, and winter will be here soon. There is a hint that modern is better. Work harder to know that our traditions still work best. Stay Orthodox, don’t let the ugly beasts come in.
SOUTHERN UNITED STATES: http://fmp.suscopts.org/. Don’t be deceived by the cover, open up and read the fine print, and footnotes. A mother lode for the new age of Coptic civil divorce lawyers and forensic freudians. Look at all of the mercenary testamonials/ advertisements. Trumping the Apostles and Fathers? This looks like the beginnings of a Coptic freudian for profit empire to me, a Florida Coast Esalen Institute. California can’t have all the fun, and money. This could be very liberating from many levels of Coptic "Imagined Antiquities." See an excerpt from THE CENTURY OF THE SELF, Episode 3. Then we can be even more like the Catholics. See,
LEFT COAST: Cali Coptic Divorce Capitol version: Those clever Californians, they have all the fun. Just like Hollywood, they think of everything (evil) first.
Mercenary? I agree with part of your partial definition. I haven’t experienced freudian ethics, except for self and industry interests. I’ll spare you the details. My conclusion to your definition would be “at the expense of God’s Word.” My thought also includes the alternate definition: “hired to fight for a foreign ruler, army or cause” (Satan). There you go again, deny masterful editing, followed by just such a self-serving edit. Slap down my efforts to be brief. My complete sentence that you picked to nit-pick is: “Silence, mercenary freudian placebo, then ridicule.” I could have been clearer: The disinterested bishops and priests now listen impatiently, may offer a few freudian placeboes, and their final counsel, like used car salesmen, is for the pleading, childrenless father to make an appointment with one of our “recommended” Coptic mercenary freudians, or attend one of our mercenary freudian conferences. The Spirit led, intransigent divorced Coptic family ruler/ father is ridiculed at all levels; bishop, priest, mercenary freudian and mercenary freudian conference. I believe that the bishops and some priests (host parishes and travelling [at least freudian tolerant] presenters) make money at these Coptic freudian industry enterprises. I am also puzzled by the bishops’ and priests’ failure to use every traditional spiritual resource of the church to oppose and prevent civil divorce by the very Coptic women that they have prepared for and given in presumed and stated lifelong marriage. The Coptic Marriage Liturgy and the Holy Bible contain all of the marriage counsel that strengthened Coptic marriages for over 1900 years of far worse trials than wives now have, with very few failures. How can they abandon these settled, proven principles for life long marriages, for thousands of inconsistent, irrational, ever changing, unproven, speculative freudian theories, that usually soon prove themselves to be disastrous? Their reasons cannot be based upon the best interests of the divorcing parents and their innocent victim children. What could the reason be, other than compulsion, pride and/ or money? Many thousands of freudian trained Catholic priests left their vocations to counsel for fees. Is this the same irresistible fruit? Neither do I understand their motives. But aren't they accumulating many thousands of days of disinterest in broken family sin and misery to their spiritual accounts.
Placebo. Your secular definition is somewhat relevant from that point of view. However, we are concerned with a “Coptic spiritual epidemic.” All of this heretical freudian pseudo-science, fraud, deception and destruction is void, antithetic of any traditional, patriarchal, scriptural, Orthodox content or effect. Sure, you may be able to find some self-proclaimed Greek, or marginal Russian orthodox philosopher/ theologian trying to sell his innovative books on freudian orthodoxy, or orthodox freudianism. I’ve even been told, by a Southern freudian Coptic priest that Jesus used/ uses freudianism (psychology). I doubt that speculation has freudian professional peer reviewed authority. Poor Jesus, what could he do before Freud’s cocaine trances? I hope no one else will worship at this pagan altar. Show me their credibility with SS Peter, Paul, Chrysostom and Our Holy Fathers.
The spiritually poisonous, ineffective “pill or procedure” being heretically prescribed to all Coptic family members is freudianism and its adulterous offspring/ bedfellow, feminism. Amazingly analogous to the madness of Sigmund, Anna, Edward Bernays and their extended family shown in the factual documentary, THE CENTURY OF THE SELF, referred to above.
“Mercenary freudian placebo:” A freudian or freudianist’s (A pseudo-scientific or pseudo-scientist’s) ineffective attempted treatment of spiritual sin, for money (or for deceit).
Your retractions owed debt account is building up. I do not believe nor have I stated that everyone is Freudian, freudian, or feminist. Show me where. As the propaganda and official efforts increase, most Copts may soon be confused to so believe. This requires a spiritual broom that our new Pope and his Synod should put their prayers and hands to immediately; or perhaps they could continue on the present decline; but then, they should clearly proclaim to all of us that these new false religions, freudianism and feminism, are now articles of Coptic faith and belief. So much for history, tradition, orthodoxy, God’s Word, His patriarchy.
Sorry for the length, but I want to try the impossible, to make my answer clear and able to be understood. This provides you with more editing opportunities.
How long is this process of divorce. I can't be in this relationship anymore. He left the house.what do I do? How do I get a divorce?
Hi Vanessa,
My heartfelt sympathy for hearing of your suffering.
Are you Coptic Orthodox? If so, the only permissible reason for divorce is adultery (as stated by other members on here). And there's a good reason for that: No matter how much marriage seems to be hard, and spouses do and say some hurtful things, it all can be forgiven. Adultery - you can't take it back.
How long is this process of divorce. I can't be in this relationship anymore. He left the house.what do I do? How do I get a divorce?
Present your case to the newly formed clerical council in North America.
If I am not mistaken, I think there has been a new divorce bylaws approved by the church and it grants divorce for cases other than adultery such as emotional and physical abuse.
I have a question. What is the church's position in regards to emotional adultery. And if one spouse claims one day that the spouse committed adultery (sexually) and the next day claims it was just to torture the other spouse? Thanks
That's so specific a question that I think requires a priest's personal answer for that. As for the clerical council, I personally don't have a question, but I would imagine the priest would know the answer to that.
Comments
Often what takes place, in Egypt, the husband changes his religion to Islam, to force the woman to come back through state power. This is when things get messy. If this happens, then the wife must go back and often she and her kids must change their religion and become Muslims
That is why the Church may push the wife to go back to avoid this from taking place.
You see, things are not that easy and requires wisdom from the Church. We can sit here and judge how the Church should do things based on our perspective of things.
Sometimes, it may be preferable to sustain abuse than to lose eternal life. I know that this is harsh but the Lord did require us to carry the cross and enter through the narrow rough road to enter the Kingdom.
Pray that the Lord may bless every marriage and give the Church the wisdom to lead her children.
Thanks.
I am very confused!!
How is it necessary to be abused by a husband to receive salvation?
I am very confused!!
The alternative is to become a Muslim in a civil situation in Egypt. Forcibly.
Has the Church stood against this unjust law? Has there been agitation in the West to make this practice known?
I do have to say that the situations I have heard of where women have been pressured to return to abusive husbands have all happened in the West though.
Numerous times, the husbands who are in error threaten the priests and the bishops that they will change their religion and force the wife and the kids to go back. There is a away around it but it is a very tricky one.
As far as what the West does regarding these injustices nothing. I do not want to start politics but the West have sustained unjust regimes for so long.
What is interesting is that many of those who become Muslims and want to come back as Christians cannot do it and would be targets for death if they try....
Anba Boula is in Saint Mark's Church jersey city right now....watch/listen to the broadcast
http://www.copticchurch.net/live/index.php
BTW,
Anba Boula is in Saint Mark's Church jersey city right now....watch/listen to the broadcast
http://www.copticchurch.net/live/index.php
It's awesome that you do live broadcasts!
It is quite weird hearing the American accents I must say though :D
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=11331.msg136972#msg136972 date=1304204648]
BTW,
Anba Boula is in Saint Mark's Church jersey city right now....watch/listen to the broadcast
http://www.copticchurch.net/live/index.php
It's awesome that you do live broadcasts!
It is quite weird hearing the American accents I must say though :D
please "excuse" some of the deacons there.....
How does annulment work when there is adultery? I mean, if you are not in a diocese with a bishop what happens? How do you get to see HG Bishop Paula or get in touch with him? What happens? How long does it take in an obvious admission case with evidence? Are you given a paper? Is the decision made on the spot? Is it a difference if the marraige has been for a few years but there is no reconciliation possible anymore rather than something in the first year of marraige? etc.?
Thank you and God bless.
Frank
The parish priest will facilitate an introduction or presentation of the case to Bp Bula. The case is written up and investigated a lot of times by the parish priest as part of the presentation. The process can be short or drawn out over a year depending on the details and the ability to confirm details. There is a writ that is presented with the relative annulment and the reason as well as the permission to remarry within the corpus of the Church.
Unfortunately, I have had to witness the process too many times, and it is very painful.
Is there a way to contact Bishop Paula directly? The case is clear. Admission to priest and others and documented.
Thanks.
What is the difference between annulment and divorce in terms of remarrying, etc assuming you are not found to be the one at fault? Can someone who is granted an annulment or divorce still be a priest? Also, does anyone know when Anba Paula will be coming to the U.S. or how to contact him? Thanks
I believe that there are no canons against a person who is lawfully divorced/annulled, gets married and than become a priest but i just don't don't see it much as the choice of him becoming a priest wouldn't be a popular one.
Canon 17 of the Canons of the Twelve Apostles: "He who has been twice married after his baptism, or has had a concubine, cannot be made a bishop, or presbyter, or deacon, or indeed any one of the sacerdotal catalogue."
As I said in another thread, I think this is more of a guideline than a law. If a person married twice is found worthy of the priesthood, and the bishops and the community approve, then they can ordain that person.
Like Mina said, it is highly unlikely.
Do you have a link to all the canons of the church?
It's in the Ant-Nicene Fathers series. And there are many other canons there also. But I don't think this there is such a thing as "all the canons of the church". The Roman Catholic have their own list, the Chalcedonians have their own and the Orientals have their own. This is due to the fact that not all churches attended every council and not every church accepts or validates the other churches' lists (especially when some canons have to do with "New Rome", "Old Calendar" and all that type of nonsense).
I’ve been traveling; trying to understand and comment on the papal election process and issues; trying to respond to some more seemingly very vicious, untrue, unsubstantiated slanders and defamations (blessings); haven’t had the ability, knowledge or time to continuously stay abreast of all discussions; and consequently completely missed this discussion, in which I have a very deep interest and too much sad experience.
I also want to note that I have read through this discussion and haven’t noticed any mention of and reference to the crucial, relevant Apostolic or Patristic detailed teachings on this vital subject matter. Too much personal imagining, hand wringing, pontificating and speculating, but very little expressed interest in God’s sufficient, eternal patriarchal gender and family commandments, which are focused directly at this issue and have served all divisions of the church, nearly perfectly, from the Apostles through the times of the papacy of HH Pope Kyrillos VI, until the outbursts of and acquiescence to militant atheistic feminism/ freudianism by nearly all of these same divided churches. Craved-for unity has been achieved on this evil issue. Admirably, Copticuser20, imikhail and minatasgeel (sorry if I missed someone else) persisted in the simple truth, inspite of the onslaught to compromise. The dialectic/ diaprax failed, no synthesis/ compromise, yet. A living demonstration of holy patriarchy., against the best opinion changing technique of the modern world. They showed the type of pope that I want.
This discussion also implied the wisdom of the Apostolic Tradition of independent geographic/ cultural bishops/ churches to deal with the special worldly peculiarities of the various nations/ cultures. Should we compromise God’s holy family patriarchy (imperfect, sinful father headed families) to try to defeat/ destroy Islamic patriarchal families from within? Seems like a lose-lose, demonic feminist propaganda win, strategy to me. This issue, ecumenism, is also worthy of discussion concerning the selection of our new pope.
My last, and most difficult challenge here is to express in deep love and respect, my sadness to see the degree of feminist propaganda and mindset that you seem to be troubled by. You had mentioned in an earlier post that you had been deeply impressed by speakers and tears at a World Council of Churches Conference on Abused Women. I wish that there were no anger and violence in the world, especially mine. Please don’t let the propaganda make you forget that the feminists that have taken charge of the World Council of Churches have been the prime movers in convincing/ coercing most of the Western “christian” churches to move toward divorce, abortion, homosexuality, women, lesbian and homosexual priests, bishops and marriages, etc. They are very skillful (demonic?) propagandists. Fraternization with the WCC is a greased slippery slope toward their goal of homogenous pantheAcratic one world religion (moldable freudianism) and seemingly the pits of perdition itself. Even more horrendously biased “testimony” could easily be constructed against women in general, beginning with casual genocidal (violent?) abortion. Is this worse than the frequency and severity of Coptic wife beating? It destroys most of the evidence. Should a father violently restrain his wife from aborting his child? If Coptic men are the standard for wife beating, the rest of the world is an inhuman slaughter house. And we provoke some of his anger by mettling into the household that God has given him the responsibility to rule. Gen. 3:16b. Doesn’t every national feminist organization charge there own men as “most cruel?” This can be a human battleground. Democracy won’t work, God made us in a 50-50 deadlock and designated the ruler to resolve that. Whose weapons are we going to choose? And spousal rape, of his or her own body? What scripture verse, Holy Father, or Mother, orthodox marriage liturgy defines this? Who is the spiritual criminal in this scene? Canadian OCA priest, Fr. Lawrence Farley has audio recorded a very deep, orthodox commentary on St. Peter’s First Epistle. <ancientfaithradio.com>. His series is entitled Coffee Cup Commentaries (a little Celtic humility?). The series is about 17-20 hours (in 10 minute segments), and yet, he doesn’t even get to the Epistle’s patriarchal basis. If you only look at the feminist trees, it is impossible to see the patriarchal forest. Fr. Farley posted a related article, Naming the Debate, (on orthodox women ordination, etc.) on <ocanews.com>, a few months ago, just before (not because) the site closed. We read extensively from St. Peter’s Epistle in our daily and Sunday Catholicon. This is strong eternal spiritual medicine from the Prince of the Apostles, whom we are now remembering. He is still THE MAN of Christ, our God. Application of his brief, clear, simple family plan enabled family peace and unity throughout Christendom for about 1950 years. What alternative has comparable credentials, even possibilities?
I’m sorry that I missed the discussion. I hope someone missed me. Ecclesiastical divorce really isn’t of much consequence, compared to civil divorce, to most divorced U.S. Coptic fathers and their virtually fatherless Coptic children. Some fathers dream of a happy remarriage, but this can be even more troublesome. As St. Paul told us, it is probably best not to remarry. On the other hand, in most cases that I’ve seen, the husband is the helpless innocent victim of the “no-fault” divorce by a greedy, rebellious wife. Her adultery is no impediment to a successful child custody and property award to the wife in any U.S. jurisdiction that I am aware of. Only the divorced father victims seem to have the stomach to reluctantly notice and discuss this approaching U.S. Coptic spiritual epidemic and its generational consequences. Most of these grieved Coptic fathers have very noticeably pleaded to their disinterested bishops and priests for corrective therapeutic spiritual action. Silence, mercenary freudian placebo, and then ridicule. Finally, LEAVE US ALONE. Maybe you have noticed that I don’t hear that ORDER any more. Please pray for me and for the hundreds of Coptic children who won’t have supper with their father tonight., for two weeks, forever.
Forgive me if I have offended you or caused you to sin.
Only the divorced father victims seem to have the stomach to reluctantly notice and discuss this approaching U.S. Coptic spiritual epidemic and its generational consequences. Most of these grieved Coptic fathers have very noticeably pleaded to their disinterested bishops and priests for corrective therapeutic spiritual action. Silence, mercenary freudian placebo,
Before you turn around and say that I masterfully omitted the bulk of your message because of my extreme Freudian feminism, try to address my question directly. You claim that when divorced fathers discuss the Coptic spiritual epidemic, the Coptic "disinterested bishops and priests" have supplied nothing but silence and "mercenary freudian placebo". What exactly is a "mercenary freudian placebo"? Mercenary, by definition, means "Primarily concerned with making money at the expense of ethics". As far as I can see, the clergy have no monetary benefit from promoting divorce. All the clergy offer are the sacraments and advice - none of which is charged or has a fee. But, according to you, I'm a feminist and I don't know what I'm talking about. So hopefully, you can explain how the clergy is making money at the expense of ethics. Placebo, by definition, means "A harmless pill, medicine, or procedure prescribed more for the psychological benefit to the patient than for any physiological effect" What pill or placebo have been given to divorced fathers? And if any such pill or procedure was prescribed to divorced fathers, it is harmless. It cannot, by definition, be the cause for a spiritual epidemic.
Notice how I did not ask you for your definition of "Freudian". I've asked many times and you haven't provided one even though you claim everyone is Freudian.
I have no idea what you said. I think you caught the contagion.
Generally, I try to only relate matters which I feel that I have experienced and verified sufficiently that I believe them to be true, and to be relevant to the plain gender and family commandments of the Holy Bible, and especially those explained clearly by SS Peter and Paul and St. Chrysostom. I hope that I will quickly retract and/ or explain any misstatement that is pointed out to me.
I know that the current general heresies against these traditional orthodox truths by modern feminism and freudianism have been successfully propagandized throughout western education, culture and so-called modern “christianity.” Sadly, the current secularly educated and compromised, progressive leadership of the U.S. Coptic Church clearly seem to be stealthily “joining” the happy crowd on this wide, easy way to family destruction (civil divorce). Mt. 7:13.
Of course, it is your burden to decide to rationalize, or to retract, false, faricated defamations used in support of your advocacies. Christ’s encouragement to endure these is good enough for me. Thank you for these blessings. But I wonder about the seeming confusions to some who are struggling with these issues, especially feminism (and freudianism) propagandized young Coptic men and women, and the stunned, innocent divorced Coptic fathers and children who have very little realistic comprehension of this brutal betrayal, and, usually subtle, ridicule that they will experience for the rest of their lives. They have experienced why God hates divorce and its violence and faithlessness. Malachi 2:16.
I am really puzzled by seemingly sincere, but deceptive, invitations to dialectical dialogue; especially in a seemingly Orthodox Christian context. They are like oil and water; feminism/ freudianism and Holy Patriarchy; bread, temptation, world’s glory and God’s Word. They won’t mix. Mt. 4:1-11; Mk. 1:12,13; Lk. 4:1-13.
Freudian vs. freudian? Twentieth century psych- vs. soul? No thanks, these are endless, pointless word games. I use the term freudian to broadly define all proponents and systems related to and derived from the commonly known, (atheistic) Freudian pseudo “sciences.” The clearest explanation and demonstration of “freudian,” as I use the term is shown, by the freudian industry itself, in the four hour long, award winning BBC documentary video series, THE CENTURY OF THE SELF.
Episode 1: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9167657690296627941
Episode 2:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-678466363224520614
Episode 3:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6111922724894802811
Episode 4: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4282687027796578107
Insight into the “soul” and “heart” of the patriarch of this “new” Godless religion (and its medical industry base) is provided by this discussion at: http://www.npr.org/2011/07/22/138610592/a-tale-of-two-addicts-freud-halsted-and-cocaine.
I have made a run through U.S. Coptic websites to review the new growth and “progress” of Coptic mercenary freudianism. The growth and seemingly related costs to support this rapidly growing, seeming heretical empire, seem to be smothering the last vestiges of the teaching and practicing of God’s patriarchal gender and family commandments to all ages of this generation of Coptic men, women and children.
RIGHT COAST:
St. Mary, East Brunswick, N.J. Proto church of U.S. Coptic civil divorce provoked murder (MARTYRDOM?).
http://www.saint-mary.net/ladiesmeeting/. I can’t tell the book by its cryptic feminist artwork and Arabic cover.
http://www.saint-mary.net/familyfootprints/survey/survey.asp. Surveys of “wants” is often the first step in freudian sheep herding. What do the sheep want? What is the scriptural basis for this concern? Hasn’t this pseudo-wisdom been seen before? Genesis 3? 1 Samuel 8?
I don’t have much personal experience with upper East Coast civil divorce. This is probably because the attorney/ freudian divorce industry has seemingly been relatively restrained in this formerly traditional (prolific Irish/ German/ immigrant) Catholic influenced region. My divorce victim son and his second generation divorce victim children suffered an acrimonious, secular rebellious wife caused civil divorce in NYC. His victim children received two “half families,” they spend alternate two week periods with each parent. At least, they have a divorce traumatized, secular, emotionally “amputated” father for half of their minority. This type of limitation on the rebellious wife’s divorce “jackpot” would tend to decrease the divorce rate and consequent greedy business/ sales volume of the local divorce industry.
BOSTON:
http://www.stmarkboston.org/. Clean, Orthodox website. Just orthodox church matters. I was surprised and pleased to not see any feminist/ freudian influences of The Seven Sisters. I hope this community is a rare Boston area refuge from their rebellions. Do their graduates and students pray on the women’s side, with their heads covered? Amazing, if true. Do they demand that only a gender neutral bible be read at Liturgy? in bible study? Do they demand to be readers? chanters? Deacons? Priests? Bishops? They have led the destruction of nearly every other “christian” institution. I’ve never seen it, but I suspect that their influence in the Boston Greek Orthodox churches would make me cry. I will definitely have to visit to see with my eyes. Please do not compromise with them.
NEW BABYLON:
St. Mark Coptic Orthodox Church, Washington, D.C.
http://www.stmarkdc.org/family
http://www.stmarkdc.org/parenting
http://www.stmarkdc.org/marriage
http://www.stmarkdc.org/video
http://www.stmarkdc.org/smallgroups
http://www.stmarkdc.org/womensministry. What is the hidden agenda?
http://www.stmarkdc.org/counseling. No counselling here. Freudians knowing God?
http://www.stmarkdc.org/metropolitan-kallistos-ware. What is the leading proponent of orthodox women’s ordination doing here? Ordaining? Inciting?
I have no idea what the Coptic wife caused civil divorce rate is here. Maybe the local civil divorce industry is consumed with more convenient, lucrative immorality, graft and corruption. What are the incidences of civil divorce in this community? How many in the last twenty years? How many minor Coptic children victims? Surely with all of these freudians, someone has the surveys, studies and statistics.
HEARTLAND:
CHICAGO:
From their websites, St. Mary, St. Mark and St. George seem rock solid, patriarchal, striving for the Orthodox bullseye, not publicly distracted by feminism or freudianism. No “women’s meeting,” no “counselling.” Only Abuna, as it has been since St. Mark. I wonder what their Coptic wife caused divorce incidence is? How many divorce victim minor children?
http://www.chicagocopts.org/forum/index.php. Pretty much what you would expect in Chicago. No priest, no names, many promises and goals, even a read only forum. Right out of HIS HONOR’S political bible. Ssshh, some here may like this “read only forum” idea!!
The only web Chicago Coptic freudian suspect is: https://stpaulchicago.com/aboutus/vision.php. So, the freudian camel has his nose into this community, and winter will be here soon. There is a hint that modern is better. Work harder to know that our traditions still work best. Stay Orthodox, don’t let the ugly beasts come in.
CLEVELAND:
http://stmarkcoccleveland.org/. Abuna Mikhail. No feminist, freudian tracks found here.
ST. LOUIS:
http://www.stmary-church.com/. Abuna Bassellious. No feminist/ freudian agendas noticed here.
SOUTHERN UNITED STATES:
http://fmp.suscopts.org/.
Don’t be deceived by the cover, open up and read the fine print, and footnotes. A mother lode for the new age of Coptic civil divorce lawyers and forensic freudians. Look at all of the mercenary testamonials/ advertisements. Trumping the Apostles and Fathers? This looks like the beginnings of a Coptic freudian for profit empire to me, a Florida Coast Esalen Institute. California can’t have all the fun, and money. This could be very liberating from many levels of Coptic "Imagined Antiquities." See
LEFT COAST: Cali Coptic Divorce Capitol version: Those clever Californians, they have all the fun. Just like Hollywood, they think of everything (evil) first.
http://www.lacopts.org/saint-monica-family-education-committee/coptic-integrated-family-services. Plausible denial, then freudian (and feminist) education for priests and servants.
http://www.lacopts.org/saint-monica-family-education-committee. And more freudian testamonials/ advertisements.
International (Coptic?) feminist theologian, Dr. Nelly van Doorn-Harder has celebrated feminist heros and photo-opted with HG Bishop Serapion. Her article, Imagined Antiquity: Coptic Nuns Living Between Past Ideals and Present Realities, https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:PQEYQ-kGB3AJ:egypt.umn.edu/Egypt/1-pb%20pdfs/van-doorn.pdf+Dr.+Nelly+van+Doorn-Harder+coptic+past&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESjvideHOqV55EvXnJg5xR-m2qG4DGtqDz5QjmqZ3A3-dODHJ_3hX8sAT7p2_pkvkrCIlSpEK1uMZ5zkEdFZnlcb5eyZtzH7VtMEp4nSwRoDCpSWb2__a50wcyiU8Jd79J1mNZKF&sig=AHIEtbSKSuegbdGjmPXMhXnKkphGcLvbqQ, at pg. 17, discusses several inroads that Coptic feminist laywomen have made against Coptic leadership’s lack of a women-minded approach in managing the affairs of the Coptic Church. She also reports, here, that Coptic feminist nuns’ current acts of resistance employ strategies to obey in resistence, in order to ultimately reach their goals. It seems to be past time for a house-cleaning here, too.
Mercenary? I agree with part of your partial definition. I haven’t experienced freudian ethics, except for self and industry interests. I’ll spare you the details. My conclusion to your definition would be “at the expense of God’s Word.” My thought also includes the alternate definition: “hired to fight for a foreign ruler, army or cause” (Satan). There you go again, deny masterful editing, followed by just such a self-serving edit. Slap down my efforts to be brief. My complete sentence that you picked to nit-pick is: “Silence, mercenary freudian placebo, then ridicule.” I could have been clearer: The disinterested bishops and priests now listen impatiently, may offer a few freudian placeboes, and their final counsel, like used car salesmen, is for the pleading, childrenless father to make an appointment with one of our “recommended” Coptic mercenary freudians, or attend one of our mercenary freudian conferences. The Spirit led, intransigent divorced Coptic family ruler/ father is ridiculed at all levels; bishop, priest, mercenary freudian and mercenary freudian conference. I believe that the bishops and some priests (host parishes and travelling [at least freudian tolerant] presenters) make money at these Coptic freudian industry enterprises. I am also puzzled by the bishops’ and priests’ failure to use every traditional spiritual resource of the church to oppose and prevent civil divorce by the very Coptic women that they have prepared for and given in presumed and stated lifelong marriage. The Coptic Marriage Liturgy and the Holy Bible contain all of the marriage counsel that strengthened Coptic marriages for over 1900 years of far worse trials than wives now have, with very few failures. How can they abandon these settled, proven principles for life long marriages, for thousands of inconsistent, irrational, ever changing, unproven, speculative freudian theories, that usually soon prove themselves to be disastrous? Their reasons cannot be based upon the best interests of the divorcing parents and their innocent victim children. What could the reason be, other than compulsion, pride and/ or money? Many thousands of freudian trained Catholic priests left their vocations to counsel for fees. Is this the same irresistible fruit? Neither do I understand their motives. But aren't they accumulating many thousands of days of disinterest in broken family sin and misery to their spiritual accounts.
Placebo. Your secular definition is somewhat relevant from that point of view. However, we are concerned with a “Coptic spiritual epidemic.” All of this heretical freudian pseudo-science, fraud, deception and destruction is void, antithetic of any traditional, patriarchal, scriptural, Orthodox content or effect. Sure, you may be able to find some self-proclaimed Greek, or marginal Russian orthodox philosopher/ theologian trying to sell his innovative books on freudian orthodoxy, or orthodox freudianism. I’ve even been told, by a Southern freudian Coptic priest that Jesus used/ uses freudianism (psychology). I doubt that speculation has freudian professional peer reviewed authority. Poor Jesus, what could he do before Freud’s cocaine trances? I hope no one else will worship at this pagan altar. Show me their credibility with SS Peter, Paul, Chrysostom and Our Holy Fathers.
The spiritually poisonous, ineffective “pill or procedure” being heretically prescribed to all Coptic family members is freudianism and its adulterous offspring/ bedfellow, feminism. Amazingly analogous to the madness of Sigmund, Anna, Edward Bernays and their extended family shown in the factual documentary, THE CENTURY OF THE SELF, referred to above.
“Mercenary freudian placebo:” A freudian or freudianist’s (A pseudo-scientific or pseudo-scientist’s) ineffective attempted treatment of spiritual sin, for money (or for deceit).
Your retractions owed debt account is building up. I do not believe nor have I stated that everyone is Freudian, freudian, or feminist. Show me where. As the propaganda and official efforts increase, most Copts may soon be confused to so believe. This requires a spiritual broom that our new Pope and his Synod should put their prayers and hands to immediately; or perhaps they could continue on the present decline; but then, they should clearly proclaim to all of us that these new false religions, freudianism and feminism, are now articles of Coptic faith and belief. So much for history, tradition, orthodoxy, God’s Word, His patriarchy.
Sorry for the length, but I want to try the impossible, to make my answer clear and able to be understood. This provides you with more editing opportunities.
If I am not mistaken, I think there has been a new divorce bylaws approved by the church and it grants divorce for cases other than adultery such as emotional and physical abuse.
Thanks
Thanks