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Relations with demons

KahanKahan
in General Announcements
I was discussing exorcism with my local priest, who referred me to the video below:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_r1dCezMHLw

I do not understand Arabic, but the Reverend told me that the preacher is the most prominent priest in Cairo and maybe in the whole Church, and that he is a holy exorcist, so his stories about demons are real and out of his experience. He is considered the reference on such topics.

Can someone translate the part of the video in which his reverence talks about the devil having intimate relations with humans?

Comments

  • ReturnOrthodoxyReturnOrthodoxy
    This priest is nothing to be referred to. He is, in my opinion, psychologically ill and in need of strict ecclesiastic rebuke. I'm trying to be mild in my choice of words to describe this man. Stay away from him. If you'd like to learn about demons, I'd rather your priest referred you to a demon than to this man. At least, then, you'll have some real information of demons.

    Ray
  • MeenaSamyMeenaSamy
    OK I will just ONLY do the translation part :)
    ---- Starting from the question (01:23) :
    "Question: Can the devil have intimate relation with humans?
    Answer: from experience, the devil can do anything with man!!
    and i will not say some words that i read or i heard, i will say words that are live, and we hear it every day by our ears or by my own ears every day. How? The devil can have intimate relation with woman and prevent her from getting married!! and if she was married, he would prevent her from her husband!!
    and the devil can make her imagine that she have kids!!
    and he can take her beneath earth, to see her children and stay with them!!
    and much talking...
    and this week, i was just meditating: Do any living creatures exist? Yes, there are creatures beneath earth!!
    and the bible said so!! and many verses from Holy bible are about who live beneath earth. So the devil would do anything if the man left himself to the devil.
    for example: who gives protection from devil is the Lord of Glory Jesus Christ only.
    There is no such power on earth can protect man except Jesus Christ, an I announce that to the world. the protection is in the name of Jesus Christ, so that there is no authority on the devil except by the name of Jesus Christ
    whatever we did, there is no authority on the devil except by the name of Jesus Christ
    So any man that is not protected by the Lord of Glory Jesus, the devil may touch him but the man who lives with God and has a relationship with the Lord of Glory Jesus, he says: he gave us the authority to tread on serpents and scorpions and all the power of the enemy. What are the serpents and scorpions? The demons.
    The people who asked me about hearing voices at home and seeing shadows, someone touches them or talks to them, they must know that the way is one which is to have a protection by Jesus Christ. I need to be protect by Jesus Christ."
    ---- End at (04:55)
  • minasolimanminasoliman
    He is not "the most prominent priest in Cairo" or "the whole Church".  He has been popularized by media over his exorcisms, many of which involved Muslims.  I am with RO on this one.  He is to be taken with a miniscule part of a grain of salt.
  • KahanKahan
    Thank you for the translation, MeenaSamy.

    Is the belief that demons can have intimate relations with humans accepted in the Coptic Church?

    Minasoliman and Returnorthodoxy,

    Is your opinion about his reverence based on his teachings or his character? I come from a Jewish-Messianic background where exorcism is a shady area - for me- , and demonology occupies a central position in our thought. It is the reason I inquired in first place. What his reverence teaches is about human-demonic intimacy is in agreement with Jewish tradition, therefore my interest and, to be honest, I am surprised.

    I am in no position to challenge your opinions about his reverence, but do you think that his exorcism is not genuine? Is this particular teaching wrong?
  • RemnkemiRemnkemi
    I can't speak for Minasoliman or RO, but I'll give you my 2 cents and hopefully it will help.

    I think it all comes down to precise definitions. In the Coptic Church, there have been plenty of instances where people claimed demonic exorcism (or the opposite - pouring oil from hands or blood from icons) that have been decreed as hoaxes. There have been some who claimed holiness by having oil pour out of their hands when they pray to God only for the local Church to realize it was a demonic possession. Most often these so-called miracles or demon possession amount to mental disease or schizophrenia. Since Egyptian culture and Egyptians do not believe in mental disease and psychiatric medicine, the diagnosis becomes demon possession. 

    Put another way, many of the so-called demon possessions and exorcisms occur with poor, uneducated people and it is just about impossible to evaluate if the exorcism was genuine or if it was a superstitious reaction to mental disease. (By the way, the number one complaint about the Coptic Church from 19th century Protestant missionaries was superstition. Of course, I think this relates more to Protestantism. But it is likely there is some truth that uneducated Copts exhibit a lot of superstitious behavior).

    To answer your question, demons can have relations with humans in the Coptic Church. Of course, we have to be careful about definitions. What does it mean to have "relations" with demons? In the Coptic catechesis, this amounts to a person drifting away from God long enough (by not partaking of the sacraments) that demons find "a home within the person's heart". Without God's protection, a person can become quite complacent to having a demon control him, if the person does not guard himself against the demons. 

    Notice my definition had nothing to do with the ontological essence of demons. We don't follow the myriad angelology and demonology beliefs found in the world. We don't care if demons are cute angels gone bad or spiritual beings that can enter a person to some mythical portal. 

    Our hagiography and our Orthodox faith tells us that Christ exorcised demons and he gave this authority and power to his disciples. It would seem foolish to believe that exorcism do not happen anymore because they are not needed in the post-industrial age of enlightenment. No. Our faith is based on divine revelation and clearly God has revealed exorcism as real occurrence. 

    Finally, is Fr Makari Younan able to cast out demons and is what he says in this interview credible? I am of the belief that it is more credible than what most people believe. But I also know that "demonic possession" has become a popular diagnosis based on nothing more than superstition. From what MeenaSamy translated from us, most of his words are biblical and logical. I think it is a valuable spiritual exegesis on guarding yourself against evil powers by "putting on Christ", not necessarily an affirmation of faith in charismatic exorcisms.   
  • Tobit
    edited July 2015
    Remnkemi said:

     Since Egyptian culture and Egyptians do not believe in mental disease and psychiatric medicine, the diagnosis becomes demon possession. 

    Remnkemi, that's a rather bold caricature of Egyptian culture. Considering that psychology and psychiatry is a profession there and my uncle being one, I fail to see the validity of this statement, especially coming from a rational person like you.

    Perhaps you meant mental health isn't taken seriously in Egypt. That would be a more fair characterization. But there are plenty of people diagnosed with a wide array of illnesses who are supported by medications like those here in the west. I know several in my family personally. While the culture may not take it seriously it does create an illusion which completely betrays the fact. Mental health does exist in Egypt, as primitive as it may be (it is also improving).  

    Overall, however, I agree with your post. It is interesting to see above posts, ironically, diagnose this priest with mental illnesses. I think as we see in Job and Tobit, demons have powers beyond our awareness, from physical torture, to kidnapping and killing people, especially in Tobit. I also agree with you in that definitions are important...
    What Abouna meant is different that what we are perceiving  him to say. We need to be careful from jumping on bandwagons and approach every topic, especially the spiritual and mystical free of western and scholastic biases..We simply do not know the power of the demons. I may not agree with everything Abouna Makari says about their relations with women but his fallibility of opinion is just what is expected. No one man is an expert in anything especially the metaphysical or spiritual.
  • minasolimanminasoliman
    I er on the side of caution. He has done other things that I am generally suspicious of, like his Protestantizing with the people, and accepting testimonials of others. I saw one recording when a Saidi woman came to do a testimony in front of him with his permission how she witnessed a miracle on her TV screen where the picture of Christ (mind you a Western icon picture) appeared in it when she watched Fr. Makari. She closes the TV and it's still there. She swears there's no icon around to reflect this off her TV, but she believes in the blessedness of Fr. Makari because of this.

    This made me very suspicious that a man would allow testimonials and on top of that a testimonial on how great and miraculous he (Fr. Makari) is just to boost his own street cred. You may be doing miracles and casting off demons. But not everyone who casts demons are necessarily "righteous". Not everyone who says "Lord, Lord..."
  • Tobit
    Instead of continuously berating clergy and exposing their faults, which have by the way been said over and again on hundreds of forums like this one, let us pray for the church and those leading her. What may seem crazy and irrational to us may be God working with simple people & speaking in their language.

    Granted, issues and problems have to be brought up, but he has a bishop and fellow priests, lest we forget.

    We have to remember Christ's warning about every idle word said(or typed for that matter) and holding us accountable to them. Even if a priest or bishop seems to have missed the mark on certain points, the kind of assurdenes by which we approach these topics is worrisome..
    Accusing a priest of boosting his "street cred" is quite insensitive. We need a bit more refinement in our approaches.. 

    I remember watching a vid of Abouna Makari coming from behind the curtain saying there will be no exorcisms today because people were coming for him and not for the glory of God. 
    Also, he has no control over people recording his exorcisms. The church cant stop me from using my hand-held cam or cell & posting it on the net. I'm sure years ago they tried to apply preventative measures but this is Egypt. The exposure that we are all uncomfortable with, isn't his doing, but the people's.

    We cant just look at a video and a man and start making accusations that have no warrant. Who can stand if we are to be probed and picked under the prodding knife & microscope we so readily apply to our own church all the time. 
    Accusing him to be mentally ill or boosting his street cred isn't language appropriate to Orthodox people talking of their church and clergy. We are speaking like the world. If he isn't doing God's work he will be exposed and if he is, then let Christ be gloried through him.
    Lets pray for our church and be cautious of our words. 
  • RemnkemiRemnkemi
    Tobit, 
    I am sorry for the misunderstanding. Yes, I meant mental health is not taken seriously by people at a cultural level. Thus people, not actual Egyptian psychiatrist and therapists, (self-)diagnose mental illness as demon possession and avoid proper mental treatment running after "alternative" treatment which comes in the form of demonic exorcism or miracles. 

    I should also add that I meant to say a majority of the people (and usually poor and uneducated people). Not everyone in Egypt runs after demonic exorcism to cure their problems. You are right. There are plenty of people who seek professional treatment. 

    I also believe mental illness, like physical illness, can be directly related to sin which is directly related to some types of demonic possession. Thus, God may give any person (like Fr Makari) the grace to cast out demons which will in turn become a type of physical and spiritual healing (Matthew 12:22, James 5:15), which in turn will become a type of remission of sins (John 5:14, James 5:15), a new beginning like we find in the sacrament of confession (James 5:16). In other words, while one can have true physical and mental illness, prayer, miracles and even exorcism prayers can and has fixed these illnesses. 

    Take for example the a hagiographic story (I forget the actual reference) where a thief dressed up as monk and entered a blind woman's house to steal. She heard him and in her naiveness, said "Are you Fr Claudius?" Apparently, she thought the real Fr Claudius was a miracle worker. The thief said "Yes I am." So the woman got water to wash his feet and after she washed his feet, she put the water on her eyes. And when she received her sight again, the thief converted to Christianity and became a real monk. Thus we can see, the woman had a real physical disease called blindness. Yet, prayer, not modern medicine cured her. Of course, the story is not meant to justify some sort of anti-science stand against modern medicine. If one is blind or mentally sick, one should seek proven, reliable treatment from medicine, not expect prayer/exorcism/miracles to cure them. Prayer is meant to please God so he can send healing if it is His will, not the other way around. 

    I actually like what Abouna Makari said in this video. As I said, it struck me as a spiritual exegesis of demonic relation (or demonic warfare is probably a better term) with humanity in general. 

    I don't think anything I wrote suggest Fr Makari is the one with mental illness. I think he is a bonafide, modern day priest given the grace of exorcism, not a delusional fake.  

    Sorry for the confusion.
  • qawe
    Tobit said:

    Instead of continuously berating clergy and exposing their faults, which have by the way been said over and again on hundreds of forums like this one, let us pray for the church and those leading her. What may seem crazy and irrational to us may be God working with simple people & speaking in their language.

    Granted, issues and problems have to be brought up, but he has a bishop and fellow priests, lest we forget.


    We have to remember Christ's warning about every idle word said(or typed for that matter) and holding us accountable to them. Even if a priest or bishop seems to have missed the mark on certain points, the kind of assurdenes by which we approach these topics is worrisome..
    Accusing a priest of boosting his "street cred" is quite insensitive. We need a bit more refinement in our approaches.. 

    I remember watching a vid of Abouna Makari coming from behind the curtain saying there will be no exorcisms today because people were coming for him and not for the glory of God. 
    Also, he has no control over people recording his exorcisms. The church cant stop me from using my hand-held cam or cell & posting it on the net. I'm sure years ago they tried to apply preventative measures but this is Egypt. The exposure that we are all uncomfortable with, isn't his doing, but the people's.

    We cant just look at a video and a man and start making accusations that have no warrant. Who can stand if we are to be probed and picked under the prodding knife & microscope we so readily apply to our own church all the time. 
    Accusing him to be mentally ill or boosting his street cred isn't language appropriate to Orthodox people talking of their church and clergy. We are speaking like the world. If he isn't doing God's work he will be exposed and if he is, then let Christ be gloried through him.
    Lets pray for our church and be cautious of our words. 
    @Tobit

    RO and Mina are only echoing the concerns of many Orthodox bishops in their comments.  The only reason action can't be taken against Fr Makari is his overwhelming popularity.  Thus, it is important to educate the laity of the dangers of these sorts of methods.  This is working with the Church, not against it.  If the laity don't speak out, the Church will lapse into heresy - this is clear throughout the Church's history.  We already have the problem that only priests are taken seriously and lay people are ignored - your post is only compounding this.
  • minasolimanminasoliman
    Have you ever heard of a saint bringing someone to Church to tell the people how great of a wonder-worker he is?
  • Tobit
    edited July 2015
    Qawe,

    Agreed, but respect & love have to be the most basic theology before anything else. Calling out heresy is important, calling our error is important, calling out dangerous methods is important. But not from a position of ego, and especially not name calling a priest. Believe me, I used to be the youth running around church calling priests and bishops names in the name of Orthodoxy. I've had to sit many nights with myself and in confession dealing with the harm I may have caused to others. I may have made the weak stumble or ones wanting to know the church never set foot in Her again. May God forgive me for my past.
    I remember when st Athanasius was writing against Apollanarius(his former friend and bishop in the service), he never mentioned him by name(if I recall) or berated him. He respected his rank and history of friendship they had. He simply wrote about the error. 

    Remnkemi,
    no worries my friend. the mental illness post was from another response above yours. You're rational and honest in your posts and that's why i like them. You aren't just looking to have the last answer in everything or writing form emotion. Even when I disagree, you have a underlying loyalty and respect to your Orthodox church. You're never adversarial in your posts. This I why I enjoy reading most of what you say, regardless of disagreeing with you on some things. Pray for me


  • MeenaSamyMeenaSamy
    As I said before, I will not say my opinion but this comment talks about itself

    image
  • qawe
    edited July 2015
    I will not say my opinion either.

    image
  • MeenaSamyMeenaSamy
    @qawe 
    Exactly
    You have abbreviated everything......
    (Y) 
  • minasolimanminasoliman
    Translation please?
  • MeenaSamyMeenaSamy
    Translation:

    First Picture (MeenaSamy): from father Makary related page "I am from Hurghada and I love you so much, and I watch your episodes on Al-Karma channel, I was in need of money so i offered an apartment for selling but in vain, there was no even one buyer, so i sprayed some water in front of the television to the apartment!!!!!!!!!, then the apartment was sold in a very high price i didn't even expect and i promised to tell you of what happened. so i hope to spread this miracle!!!!! and to get to your Holiness!!! as i promised you, my name is ........ from Hurghada."

    Second Picture (qawe): from bishop Raphael account "Running after occult is not from Orthodox, please investigate before sharing and glorifying for it, This mania doesn't glorify God and it doesn't benefit our faith, but contrary it gives a negative impression about the Orthodox. The holy fathers gave us a sedate respectable explained understood live faith with a true piety. The real miracle is the Bible, Eucharist, Piety, Love of God, Love of People and continuously Virtue. 
    If you want to tell people about your faith, have a good behavior and explain the Incarnation of the Word to them.
    If you want to strengthen children in faith, teach them Hymns.
    If you want to get someone back to the faith, tell him the verses.
    If you want to lead people in the way of virtue, tell them about the Fathers stories.
    If you want to have eternal life, come with me to make a beautiful repent for all the bad past, today nothing can benefit us except out repent with the correct faith and serving the others."
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