Agios Istin

Comments

• minatasgeel

  August 2015 edited August 2015

  :-)

  let's wait for Remnkemi to respond to this. 
• Remnkemi

  August 2015

  The current Coptic/Greek text is approved with an asterisk. There is a modified Coptic/Greek text with a new translation that was approved as an appendix to the current Coptic text. In other words, the Rites committee of the Synod wants to leave the old text but add the modified Coptic/Greek text with new translation as an appendix not replacing the original text. The modified text was only an initial draft that is why it didn't replace the original. I have since modified it again to reflect a second possible meaning but it has not gone to the Rites committee. 

  
  

  By the way, Agios istin is not the only text with a controversial translation. There are other glorification hymns with the wrong Arabic translation. These include Shere theotoke, Rashi ne, Devte Pantes, Se natsho, and parts of Vai peplymin. Hopefully, I will finish with the modifications and present it again.
• Khepra

  August 2015

  Just out of interest... Has the original been subject to linguistic scrutiny by non-Copts? As in actual Greek people?
• Remnkemi

  August 2015

  Agios Istin is not Greek. It is Copto-Greek which is completely unintelligible to Greeks. In addition, Coptic liturgical studies is not very interesting to Coptologists and Copto-Greek hymns (found no where else) is not very interesting to liturgists. That's why I had to research it (and everyone Greek person I ask for help refer me to someone else).

  
  

  What do you mean by "the original"? 
• Khepra

  August 2015

  By 'original' I meant non-modified.

  
  

  What is Copto-Greek? Is that just a mixture of the two?
• davidschanter

  August 2015

  In "Defte Pantes" where we say "Shere metherthe o cotiria" (the 7th paragraph) the translations usually say "Hail to the mother of our Savior," but doesn't it mean "Hail to the mother of Salvation?"
• Remnkemi

  August 2015

  Davidchanter, yes. That is my point. The Arabic translations are usually wrong. The actual text changed into classical Greek is  χαῖρε μητήρ του σωτήρια (Shere mytyr tou swtyria). Ramez will have to confirm. 

  
  

  Khephra, Copt-Greek is more than a mixture of two languages. It is a linguistic phenomena where two languages create a new language or dialect. It is not simply borrowing between two languages. 
  
• ophadece

  September 2015

  Nofri rombi emwari
  In good Friday we say ebshois afshwbi nai owsotereya atwab, so the word sotereya refers to the Saviour in my opinion. I'm not arguing that Arabic translation has got lots of mistakes anyway.
  Oujai khan ebshois
• davidschanter

  September 2015 edited September 2015

  In psalm 50 we say "Ifnoutee inte tasotereya" meaning God (in coptic) of my salvation (in greek). Interestingly in the same prayer we say "Moi ney imipthelel nte bekojai" meaning Give me the joy of your salvation (fully in coptic).

  
  

  Also, I was told that when we say thok te tigom, that it is supposed to say "EFwab" meaning "He is holy." 
• Remnkemi

  September 2015

  Ophadece,

  The Paschal doxology Thok te tigom, where you are referring specifically to soteria, is taken from Psalm 117. In all languages, it means "He has become to me a sacred salvation", not "a sacred Savior." Of course, someone who becomes my salvation is semantically my savior. But the two words technically refer to different things.

  
  

  Oujai has multiple meanings, ranging from wellness to safety to deliverance to salvation. 

  
  

  In the Paschal doxology, where you are referring to efouwab, it is describing the holiness of the salvation, not the holiness of Him (God). Efowab (or Efwab) is the qualitative form of ouwab. It is the describing the quality of holiness or being holy. 

  
  

  I hope this helped.
• ophadece

  September 2015

  Nofri rombi emwari
  Very well explained @Davidschanter and @Remenkimi.. thanks a lot both
  Oujai khan ebshois