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Protestant songs

AbaAba
in Faith Issues
I was watching a YouTube video made by return to orthodoxy it had pope tawadros talking about Protestant songs but I wonder do songs like my Coptic church of all nations etc.. are those Protestant songs or is pope tawadros talkin. About something else this may be a stupid question but I sometimes confuse those songs with Protestant ones because of the style of the songs and that they are non liturgical


This is the link if any one wants to check it out

Comments

  • stranger
    https://www.facebook.com/theorthodoxrock/posts/1848000062085423
  • minasolimanminasoliman
    Translation please?
  • AbaAba
    I'm assuming it's the same thing as this just read the description

    But what's the point of them really I'm not against them I'm honestly just asking
  • qawe
    @Aba

    It can be helpful to think about 3 categories of songs
    1. Orthodox devotional
    2. Non-orthodox devotional
    3. Non-devotional, eg campfire songs

    I think the songs you are asking about fall into the 3rd category.
  • AbaAba
    Oh okay But I just wonder why do we have them
  • AbaAba
    like i mean about orthodox devotional songs are they suppose to be sin during bible studies or something and if they are isn't that kind of copying Protestant praxis but just with orthodox content
  • qawe
    edited March 2017
    I think you mean "Orthodox non-devotional songs", this is the category (#3) I placed Of All Nations in. Orthodox devotional songs (category #1) are liturgical hymns eg Hitenni or a doxology or a hoos.

    In regard to why these category #3 songs exist, the reason is that singing is an essential part of any complete culture (although authentic folk music is dying out in the West due to the commercialisation of music - we still have folk songs though, eg the Happy Birthday song).

    In religious cultures, it's natural that the common folk would sing songs with a religious theme, as their faith is an important part of their lives. But this is not church music or sacred music or worship/devotional music. It should not be used in the middle of a bible study or even a youth meeting (I explicitly described them as "campfire" songs). It shouldn't even "fit" in these events, as these songs should be composed without being intended for use in worship. In a sense, we already realise this which is why we sing these songs while seated (in Orthodoxy we always praise while standing)... it feels just as weird to be forced to stand during Of All Nations/My Coptic Church as if you were forced to stand to sing, say, Justin Bieber with your friends lol. It's not a "sin" to basically "take a break" in the middle of a Bible Study to sing a random harmless song... it's just weird. These songs are not similar to Protestant praxis as Protestant worship songs are devotional in nature, they are either addressed to God or invoke God in some way, whereas these non-devotional songs just tell a story/describe a scene, basically just a piece of religious poetry.

    However, the category we need to really be cautious with is #2. Songs in this category may be authored by either weak Orthodox or Protestants, but they are intended for worship or for you to "pray along" with them in your car or whatever. This is where we need to be careful about Protestant influence. We must not PRAY like Protestants. We can sing secular music with a religious theme or go on camps like Protestants, but cannot PRAY like them. Why? Because prayer IS theology. Praying in a Protestant manner means you are starting to follow their spiritual path, a path that is not tried and tested.

    I hope this makes sense.
  • AbaAba
    Oh okay I understand you know it's hard for me to believe that people would actually have a liturgy And a rich tradition but would rather favor charismatic style worship like what thy did in mokattum it's really saddening and honestly just boggles my mind that people think this is how god should be worshipped as if all Christianity is about is just singing songs and listening to some guy but I guess for me it's just cause I always disliked Protestantism
  • minasolimanminasoliman
    Sadly Mokattam is not the only place. Let's pray that this can be stopped.
  • AbaAba
    Really where else is it going on
  • qawe
    Many youth meetings in Egypt and the West
    Many prayer meetings in Egypt and the West
    During communion in "mission churches" without a diocesan bishop, like SMSV run by Fr Pishoy Salama and STSA run by Fr Anthony Messeh
  • AbaAba
    u know I always had a funny feeling about abouna Anthony messeh but I didn't know what it was
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    Let's keep priest names out of this discussion. Please be objective. 
  • Menas17
    I was actually really curious about this as well. When I first read about Protestant songs/instruments in Coptic Churches I was seriously stunned. Is this really that common? 
  • minasolimanminasoliman
    Where I live in the NJ/NYC area, it seems to be frequent more so than we like, and we hope that more theological education (part of the problem is ignorance) can lead this to be less frequent in the future. Keep us in your prayers.
  • RemnkemiRemnkemi
    I was going to say the same thing as minasoliman. It happens in communion in nearly all churches, with or without a diocese, in "mission churches" or whatever the opposite of that is. There are songs that are commonly sung in Coptic Church liturgies and no one even bothers to examine how they are Protestant. A few years ago, I showed how Very Early Sunday Morning was protestant but you will still find it in Coptic Reader sung by every Coptic Church. Now, I am going to add Night of the Last Supper, Truly Risen is the Lord, Our Father who art in heaven (English version), parts of Our Savior called upon us, O Mother of the Light (Ya om al noor), They are either written by Evangelical Protestants or Copts who mixed Protestant theology (because they do not have a good foundation of Orthodox theology). Oh, and just about everything on CTV, CYC and Logos channels. I don't have Agape TV and I avoid the new Coptic satellite channels, but I'm sure they are more of the same. 

    This is an epidemic that is getting worse as the posts from The Orthodox Rock FB linked above shows. 

    Don't underestimate charismatic music. The Charismatic Movement of the Pentecostal Church and other denominations have specifically targeted Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox youth. This is no different than the 19th Century Protestant missions in Egypt. They are actively trying to proselytize the Orthodox.

    I'll come back with a more in-depth discussion. 

  • Menas17
    @Remnkemi 


    That blows my mind that this is even a thing in the Coptic Church. What is it about the Coptic Church that makes itself susceptible to this stuff? I'm afraid that soon you all will end up looking like the typical American Catholic parish in that you just be Protestants with liturgy. Is the Coptic hierarchy not worried about this? 
  • ophadeceophadece
    The congregation in the Coptic church rules. And they do not understand Coptic. So we have to appease them and pander to their needs. Please do not start me.. Oops I already have!
    Oujai khan ebshois
  • qawe
    @ophadece

    It has very little to do with language.  Any hymn can be translated.
  • ophadeceophadece
    edited April 2017
    Thanks @qawe, I hope you are right but I do believe that is one of the major factors besides the reluctance to learn the Coptic language
    Oujai khan ebshois
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