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Questions about Kiahk Tasbeha

danny
in Hymns Discussion
Hi,
I've been on these forums for 5+ yrs now and have really learned a lot - I've come across some hymns questions that I couldn't find an answer for on these forums. Please forgive me if they have been discussed before, I could not find any threads on them.

1.) I heard a recording of Ibrahim Ayad teaching the 'Kiahk tune' for the Sunday Theotokia, sounds similar to Pascha concluding hymn (Efnoti Nai Nan). Does anyone know anything about this tune? The recording was cut short and didn't have much information.
For example, does the tune still apply from part 8 (Shasfh) onwards?
Do we say part 10 (Teoi) in its own tune or still in this kiahk tune?
Does this kiahk tune apply for weekday Adam theotokias?
What about Watos theotokias, the standard watos tune or is there a special kiahk watos way?
I haven't heard any other recordings in this tune nor seen any churches use it, I'm just interested.

2.) Sunday Kiahk Vespers Praises (i.e. Saturday evening) has the special interpretations for each part of the Saturday Theotokia. In another thread it was mentioned that the Saturday Theotokia is in more particular reference to St Mary than any other Theotokia, and so has these interpretations. But why then is it not placed in the Saturday midnight praise (i.e. Friday night)? Why the Vespers Praises? 
I believe the Sunday Vespers Praises of the Great Fast also have similar madaye7 that are said for each part of the SaturdayTheotokia.
For both these situations, why are these extra parts in the vespers praise rather than midnight praise?

2.) I have heard a number of tunes for the Sunday Theotokia Kiahk interpretations; some use the standard theotokia tune, some use the similar 'altered' tune which combines 2 verses into 1. In particular, I saw a video of Anba Youannes' tasbeha where he used the tune from 'O MARY' for all the interpretations.
I imagine this is simply a preference of His Grace?
Out of interest, does anyone know when this tune originated? Was it composed for the hymn 'O MARY', or was it taken from another hymn I am not aware of, and applied to that one?

Sorry for the many questions, I would really appreciate any answers.
God Bless :)

Comments

  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    Lets see what we can answer:
    • 1.) I heard a recording of Ibrahim Ayad teaching the 'Kiahk tune' for the Sunday Theotokia, sounds similar to Pascha concluding hymn (Efnoti Nai Nan). Does anyone know anything about this tune? The recording was cut short and didn't have much information.
    Yes, this recording started getting a lot of attention in the past say, 4 years. Before I say anything, lets confirm that were are atleast 3 other ways to say those tafaseer. C. Ibrahim way is NOT new or made up. It's an older source, and here are a couple of those recordings:
    (all recordings are of the parts and tafseer in the same tune)
    In the last recording C. Ibrahim says he learned from C Assad. It worth mentioning that this is the way that Pope Kyrillios VI used to say this way.
    • For example, does the tune still apply from part 8 (Shasfh) onwards?
    • Do we say part 10 (Teoi) in its own tune or still in this kiahk tune?
    We don't think so
    • Does this kiahk tune apply for weekday Adam theotokias?
    We also don't think so since they din't have tafaseer.
    • What about Watos theotokias, the standard watos tune or is there a special kiahk watos way?
    No. That's we I really don't think that the way above should be said on the theotokia. Adam theotokia tune never changes. 


    • 2.) Sunday Kiahk Vespers Praises (i.e. Saturday evening) has the special interpretations for each part of the Saturday Theotokia. In another thread it was mentioned that the Saturday Theotokia is in more particular reference to St Mary than any other Theotokia, and so has these interpretations. But why then is it not placed in the Saturday midnight praise (i.e. Friday night)? Why the Vespers Praises? 
    I wouldn't  say it has the most references to the Virgin. I think Sunday theotokia would. Now, you have to consider that there was always a difference between vespers praise and midnight praise. for example, Alli el-'asr that is said after the 4th hoos, it is only to be said in Vespers praise. Also, Ef-e-ranaf is supposed to only be said in Midnight praise and not vespers. So each praise is unique. The additions to the saturday theotokia, including the great commentary hymn are specific to that tasbeha.
    • I believe the Sunday Vespers Praises of the Great Fast also have similar madaye7 that are said for each part of the SaturdayTheotokia.
    yes.
    • For both these situations, why are these extra parts in the vespers praise rather than midnight praise?
    For sunday midnight praise of Lent, there are the extra psalies and commentary that are to be said only on the sunday of lent. So there is something unique to that tasbeha too. You also have to consider that Sunday has always been the main day for liturgy that people didn't skip. so both services are important in their own way.


    • 2.) I have heard a number of tunes for the Sunday Theotokia Kiahk interpretations; some use the standard theotokia tune, some use the similar 'altered' tune which combines 2 verses into 1. In particular, I saw a video of Anba Youannes' tasbeha where he used the tune from 'O MARY' for all the interpretations.
    • I imagine this is simply a preference of His Grace?
    • Out of interest, does anyone know when this tune originated? Was it composed for the hymn 'O MARY', or was it taken from another hymn I am not aware of, and applied to that one?
    Considering what I also said before, and what C. Ibarahim says in that recording mentioned above, that looks to be the case. Also, consider that O MARY is kind of made up and specifically handed down in St. Poula Monastery, of which Anba Youannis is from. 

  • danny
    Thanks very much Mina, I really appreciate the in-depth answer, and the files uploaded are a wealth of information :)
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